[VanessaFeltz.]

For me it is about removing the double standarts in different areas of life. Everyone should be able to have equal chance at being anything in life. Women shouldnt have to be afraid of being sexually abused or being oppressed or have less of a shot at getting a job just because of their gender. Also men shouldnt have to work for massive amount of hours to provide for their families (if they have one) by themselves and they shouldnt have to hide their emotions just because of their gender, there is a massive amount of male suicide instances and we have to get to bottom of it as well.

This is not just about who has it worse but it is about how to move forward as a whole, if we only look at a small portion of the problems then we are not going to move forward as a society

[VanessaFeltz.]

Also no one should touch other people's body to harm them. It also goes for women hitting men and expecting them to "take it like a man" . Just because i said this few years ago i was attacked here by someone and he said disgusting things about me just based on my country and he said that i support those extremist ideas without knowing anything about me at all and that just goes to show the hypocrisy of the some people.

We all have prejudices, we all gravitate towards some groups and we all have bad opinions of some groups (For example as a gay male i have lots of prejudices about heterosexual people and judge them hard like all the time but i also know some of my opinions and thought progresses are just not true at all) but the imporant thing is that we all need to know our limits and grounds and not discriminate other people just because they are diffrent from us. If we remember this i think we can move forward better.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife is on a make-up community on FaceBook (used to admin, but no longer has time for it)... it now has just under 8000 members... and some of their discussions are utterly horrendous. Several of them DO laugh and joke about punching / hitting / slapping / verbally abusing their partners. Sometimes far worse, including (but not limited to) deliberately slamming hands in doors, or even deliberately backing a car over their partners foot. Often it's claimed to be in response to infidelity but that's not really the point (and quite often it's along the lines of "I *thought* he was texting someone else").

These messages get dozens of positive replies... "LOL go girl he won't do that again!!" ... relatively few saying that it's awful (because it's an all female community, and if any try to say that it's abuse they get shouted down)... but really the most worrying part, is that they get HUNDREDS of likes / loves / "crying laughing face" emoji responses.

It's not very common in normal adult relationships, no (but then, is domestic abuse in general?) but to suggest that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't get treated as "omg can't believe u did that hilarious!" a hell of a lot in certain circles, is just incorrect. I've seen multiple horrendous threads.

I also can't imagine a male saying "LOL I slammed my girlfriend's hand in a door and ran over her foot " ... or even just "I thought she was cheating so I slapped her in the face" ... and not being immediately (and of course, rightly) torn to shreds for it. There's a large and actually quite well documented discrepancy.

Hell I even just watched an episode of "Friends" where Joey has a "teeny" girlfriend and she keeps punching him, and he tells them all that she's hurting him and they all treat it as a joke / make fun of him as he's "a big guy and she's so little" (until she does it to Rachel and she hits her back ... heh ... at which point they conceed that her punches really were painful). Scenarios like that are really common . Even when I was at school it was quite "accepted" for girls to hit / kick guys if they pissed them off, but DEFINITELY never the other way around.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

FB comments are horrendous in general though, the s**t that people come out with on there, I really hope that most are trolling but I fear not

But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with

..the thing is, as Niamh has said..’who laughs’?...surely those who might laugh don’t practise or believe in feminism..?..so those aren’t any females which feminism would be concerning anyway because essentially, even though they’re females.. they have ‘opted out’ of feminism..if they really, genuinely do feel that any men’s issues are not to be taken seriously or are in any way amusing to them..


...I don’t doubt the things your wife reads on Facebook, TS...I don’t do social sites like that but I imagine it’s all quite similar to playground conversations, when you get some females all grouping together in ‘anti-male’ chats, which is something I’ve experienced over many years of ‘familiar’ playground behaviour which is practised by a few...and it is quite unpleasant, I know....but ‘seeing the whole playground’ as it were...I also know and observe that most women don’t get involved in it../..want no part of it...even if it may be just ‘jokey’, rather than...yes, I did actually run my car over his foot...I mean if someone said that and I actually thought it was serious, I would be thinking about police involvement as most women also would...most would not laugh at all...anyway, I think on Facebook and the likes, what we see and focus on is silly females who say these things ..oh, LOL that was funny...(..even though they might not think it was funny at all..)...just because it’s the nature of the Facebook beast...but what we don’t see and focus on...(..as in the playground..)...is that so many more females and I think, the majority of females who are not lolling or takin* part in...and those for me are the ‘feminists’...


...and no, men may not say similar things on Facebook of...oh, I just ran my car over her foot, or whatever, lolllsies....because their male Facebook lol people would be saying...hang on, you’ve just abused your partner, what the heck...!!!!!!....and as you say, there would be ‘tearing to shreds’....but then it could be argued, that the reason for that is because it’s always been much more typical for women to be abused by a male partner...so if a man says it on Facebook, it would be taken more seriously as a possible reality...but if a woman says it, then maybe taken that she’s joking and not being literal in her Facebook entry...?....


...I mean, a progression there has been with feminism, is that male on female domestic abuse is now acted on in a way that it wasn’t always in the past...because it was sadly quite often..’oh this is not a police matter, we can’t get involved in domestics unless that person directly reports and we see the injuries when they’re at their worst’, that type of thing...?...the reason for the progression is because male on female domestic violence has been and is more common...whereas, female on male domestic violence is very much still in its ‘infancy’ in comparison in terms of the awareness if it...?...only in recent years, the awareness is starting to grow, quite rightly...and actually, that’s when Facebook and such sites can be a positive because ‘social experiment’ vids and such the like are probably posted on there...(..and by women also, I would think...in fact, maybe more by women, I don’t know..?..)...with people laughing if a set up involved a man being physically abused but people intervening more to prevent, if it were the opposite..?...and this is a mindset that has to change and hopefully will but it’s still relatively in its infancy, with both males and females..(..feminists..)...striving for that change....I don’t know in the past days, whether males ‘lolled’ at things like...oh, I gave her a slap when she moaned at me....thinking that it wasn’t a serious statement but just ‘male bantzzzzz’...but then because those slaps are known to be very real in their common nature over time....those lols just don’t happen anymore...but these things do evolve and take time though, surely...that nervous, knee jerk laughter stops because people ‘become aware of’ the reality and seriousness of something...the thoughts begin and the laughter stops...


....anyways, I think I stopped making any sense around 500 words ago as my thoughts are a bit floaty this morning so I’ll leave it at that for any sense to be made....


..oh Joey btw, I think he wasn’t taken seriously as he should have been because his individuality is that he’s quite the drama person by nature and quite exaggerates many things, so I think that was more it as well...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

no no she's a feminazi

I'm actually leaving this discussion now because it just winds me up tbh

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It winds you up because it's frustrating, it's frustrating because it is going in circles and not heading towards any further understanding or equality, and that is representative of the current movement as a whole. Disjointed, frustrating and going nowhere. And yet there's a complete refusal to even consider that this might suggest that it is no longer working and that new, inclusive and creative approaches to equality are probably a good idea at this point.

Basically... Being frustrated and wound up by the discussion in itself proves the point .

...anyways, im going to follow Niamh’s lead and leave it there with the discussion..(..for the moment..)...the circles are frustrating but I personally feel, that’s because the focus has to be one step at a time and bit by bit..rather than looking at a whole of ‘equality’...because that’s just too big a thing to look at..its a breaking down thing, I think...isolating things to make progress with so that the ‘whole’ can be tackled and progressed on eventually...like our own individual huge things we have to go through in life...we’ll never get there if we try to address the whole ‘monster’, the whole monster being complete equality.....because that monster is just too huge a mountain to climb and reach the top of and overcome in one step...so we break off a little that can be progressed on and the bit that requires the most progression, the inequality of females that still exists...rather than going off in so many different directions that nothing gets achieved with those circles...and I have to say, although it is only my opinion...I don’t think Niamh is becoming frustrated because feminism is no longer working or that the thread is proving anything in its discussion...I think it’s a frustration that too many things are diverting off by very definition of total ‘equality’ of genders, when this is specifically about feminism and an equality that has to be reached first, as has been said....before many other things can be brought in as comparisons and unfairnesses etc...before we all ‘get to that point’...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes absolutely. Also, mens rights are pretty much only ever brought up in these discussions as a counter to feminism. I'm pretty sure if a poster on here started a thread on Fathers rights or any other mens issues then I'm sure members who consider themselves feminists would be supportive of those issues too, I know I would but why don't men bring them up more? and why do they only seem to be brought up to say but why don't you want rights for men? My answer to that is why don't men bring them up as they are men and would be the best people to do that?

..actually just touching back on this...it reminds me a bit of two parents having a discussion about their children......obviously the same, aims, the same goals etc and both equal in importance...but the conversation going..darling, can we talk about Annie, we need to talk about Annie because she is having some specific girl issues atm, she told me...

...yes, we need to talk about Charlie as well because he is also having some specific boy problems atm...

..yes of course, we’ll talk about both but can we do Annie first, me go first...?...

...but why, would that not be sexism, darling....

...no because someone has to talk first../..set the agenda of our talk first and I mentioned it first, I asked for this chat..so that would seem logical and essential, for one of us to speak first...and then you followed, you took that opportunity and were pleased for that opportunity for this to be a good time and place etc...


...we could both talk at the same time, you telling about Charlie and me telling about Annie, that would be fair and equal...but that would just be a mess because we wouldn’t even hear what each other was saying, let alone get to a place of addressing problems and issues ..(feminism)...and so the circles would begin, with poor Annie and Charlie both getting lost in it all and their issues continuing....


...so someone has to set the agenda of addressing it all with equality, which the ultimate goal would be but in the first instance, it would be addressing Annie’s issues and unfairnesses first, just because that was the first starting point in it all being vocalised..?...but then it led to it opening out to Charlie as well and his specific boy things..?...I mean surely that’s the only way to avoid and prevent those circles and stumbling places and stalemates...for feminism and females to lead as it were, because they have voiced through feeling inequality still to be reached...?...but all aiming for the same end goal..?....just because some or many men are not at the point of feeling they can talk openly about, yet because of some society views and judgements..?..but women or many women are completely ready..?...(feminism)...

[Ammi]

..well, it made sense in my head anyway..

[Marches]

Equality doesn’t have to focus on one side of the coin we can call out and work to fight injustices whenever we see them without just focusing on women!

[Ammi]

..I know this thread/discussion is long forgotten as it were but I’ll post to myself anyway because I solved it all last night while watching Wonder Woman....and yeah, maybe just movie thoughts, but though...

...(some men) are all for the support and catching up of women in those areas that have needed it...(some men)..are all for the equality of in many things as well...(some men)..get a bit shaky and twittery with the ‘empowerment’ of though, the taking the lead with and in etc...so (some men) will say things like, oh lovely boobs, great skimpy outfits, I’m really loving that Wonder Woman and go girl, kick that ass...why do (some men) do that..?...because it’s a form of oppression, because it detracts from an individuals strength and character and the person who they are.. because sexism is still alive and kicking with (some men)...Wonder Woman didn’t wear that sexy outfit for any male ‘benefit’, none of the Amazons did because there were no males in their world...it was all women doing it for themselves...and in doing it they were achieving more physical strength than (some men)...

[Ammi]

.....so then, that’s that of that then..keep up with the feminism ladies, we’re doing ok, I think..we are Wonder Womans....

[user104658]

........... I dunno Ammi, I kinda think WW's outfit was maybe a little bit designed for men...

[Ammi]

...there wasn’t a man in sight though when any of the Amazon outfits were designed....slaps TS.....

[Ammi]

..it’s true though TS, maybe it’s a not to be taken too seriously movie etc...but (some men)..are totally supportive and on board with feminism and female equality etc...so long as (some men) get to decide when that equality has been reached, when it all becomes ‘stop’, that’s it now...and (some men) get defensive because (some men) may feel they’re being painted as some type of mysoginists, type thing...which (some men) absolutely know they’re not and far from it...(some men) absolutely adore women, they adore everything about women, they want women to feel their equality, they feel women deserve their equality and all of that etc stuff...so they’re fully supportive...but I think (some men) ‘have fear’...not fear of strong females in any way but a fear that female will lose its feminininity, lose a huge part of what (some men) adore, what (some men)..appreciate so much and respect so much and love so much so ‘change and progression’ can make (some men) apprehensive and a little nervous because (some men) love women just as they are and as it is, type thing and what society has known...thats why the resistance also and the labelling of ‘feminazi’ because with (some females), it’s harder to see the femininity that is adored so much, with shouty dungaree wearing people...../...more masculine identifiable things, not what (some men) feel comfortable with at all or what (some men) want to see of a representative of what they have come to love and appreciate so much...


...but it’s not a fear that needs to be felt by (some men)...the women in this thread, women like Livia, Vicky and Niamh etc for instance...are very focused feminists but are still every essence of femininity, because we all remain who and what we are...

[Ammi]

..who would have thought Wonder Woman would have solved it all...well, it was obvious really../..goddess.....feminism, femininity, sexiness, great outfits etc...she has it all..as (some/most females) do...

[Northern Monkey]

But then some feminists are jealous of the pretty girls and some feminists don’t like people’s freedom to choose their own career path if it doesn’t fit in with their own ideology.Some feminists don’t enjoy watching Darts walk on girls or F1 Grid girls or page 3 girls so some feminists want to take those opportunities away from other women who actually really enjoy those jobs.Some feminists say they want women to have the freedom to choose but only if it fits the narrative they want it to.Some feminists just want to impose a certain ideology on all of society but those feminists need to understand that not everyone fits into one homogeneous group and women are individuals with their own ideas,plans and choices.

[user104658]

I don't disagree with you Ammi but I also agree with what NM is saying. I actually do think WW does it well because it manages to portray a powerful female character whilst still having that character be deliberately feminine / attractive / utilise sexuality. Which is so often seen as objectifying, but really, it's exactly the same with many male action stars, and it shouldn't be a problem? Why is display and admiration of physical attributes (of either sex) necessarily objectifying? And I guess the interesting question is... Why DON'T people who generally have a problem with these things seem to have a problem with WW's costume? Not that I'm saying they should.

[Marches]

It’s cntradictory because they usually make a big deal out of media portraying women sexually saying its objectifying but if u were to make a deal out of wonder women you’re oppressing women? You can’t win

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But then some feminists are jealous of the pretty girls and some feminists don’t like people’s freedom to choose their own career path if it doesn’t fit in with their own ideology.Some feminists don’t enjoy watching Darts walk on girls or F1 Grid girls or page 3 girls so some feminists want to take those opportunities away from other women who actually really enjoy those jobs.Some feminists say they want women to have the freedom to choose but only if it fits the narrative they want it to.Some feminists just want to impose a certain ideology on all of society but those feminists need to understand that not everyone fits into one homogeneous group and women are individuals with their own ideas,plans and choices.

..but it is only a ‘perspective’, or a conclusion if you like that some feminists are jealous of pretty girls, of darts walk on girls or F1 grid girls etc...it doesn’t have any logic to it but has just become a ‘society perepective’...as you say, individuals within feminism have their reasons for feeling certain things don’t ‘represent’ in a positive way, for either them or their children and it has nothing to do with any physically attractive stuff....whether that’s agreed with or not, I don’t think ‘jealousy’ comes into it..(for most women and most feminists..)...it’s more an aversion and resistance to sexism and sexist remarks because it’s felt those are not helpful in any progression...and every one of us fits our own narrative../..our own individuality...some females disregard all aspects of feminism completely and some focus on aspects where they feel the focus could help in progressions to be made etc...and that’s absolutely fine..we all focus on different things, depending on our individuality...and because of our individualism we won’t always agree when bans should be looked at or not looked at etc...but that all hazes it as well and detracts the focus, it oppresses, it suppresses...as has been said, there has to be femism before true equality can be achieved in some areas that are needed...why..?...because it’s only in more recent times that women have been given opportunities to set any agendas which have influenced legislation and changes...legislation/rules etc has been a ‘typical male job’ through most decades and most times...so now feminism is trying to reach the equal status needed for every individual....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't disagree with you Ammi but I also agree with what NM is saying. I actually do think WW does it well because it manages to portray a powerful female character whilst still having that character be deliberately feminine / attractive / utilise sexuality. Which is so often seen as objectifying, but really, it's exactly the same with many male action stars, and it shouldn't be a problem? Why is display and admiration of physical attributes (of either sex) necessarily objectifying? And I guess the interesting question is... Why DON'T people who generally have a problem with these things seem to have a problem with WW's costume? Not that I'm saying they should.

...but display and admiration of physical attributes isn’t objectifying so long as the character values/all strengths of a female are displayed as well, so the ‘problem’ I think is when those ‘displays’ don’t have that balance by the very ‘percieved’ nature of them, as has been through time...WW is the ultimate feminists because all of her ‘ddisplays’ are there, isn’t that the point or should be...

[Ammi]

..I wish I hadn’t watched the movie now.....I have to go people, you all have a good day....

[waterhog]

Originally Posted by lewis111

There's loads of debates as to wether Courtney can be a feminist because she's a man that dresses as a woman
People think Ann saying women are equal already doesn't make her a feminist

And obviously Donal Trump recent stated he wasn't a feminist

So what does the word and movement mean to you, and by your definition are you a feminist?

it is all about woman having rights as if you go back in history it has not always been this way. delightful we have a word that is on guard to stand up and fight for the woman. I am poemmist and a bigamist but that's a different story and as a true gent I am going to sit back and let ladys speak

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...but display and admiration of physical attributes isn’t objectifying so long as the character values/all strengths of a female are displayed as well, so the ‘problem’ I think is when those ‘displays’ don’t have that balance by the very ‘percieved’ nature of them, as has been through time...WW is the ultimate feminists because all of her ‘ddisplays’ are there, isn’t that the point or should be...

Her DDisplays? Ammi u perv...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But then some feminists are jealous of the pretty girls and some feminists don’t like people’s freedom to choose their own career path if it doesn’t fit in with their own ideology.Some feminists don’t enjoy watching Darts walk on girls or F1 Grid girls or page 3 girls so some feminists want to take those opportunities away from other women who actually really enjoy those jobs.Some feminists say they want women to have the freedom to choose but only if it fits the narrative they want it to.Some feminists just want to impose a certain ideology on all of society but those feminists need to understand that not everyone fits into one homogeneous group and women are individuals with their own ideas,plans and choices.

Yeah I don't really get the objectifying thing, when females get to ogle men with good bodies with no censure, yet if its the other way around it's deemed to be a terrible thing and women are seen as pieces of meat, even though they have willingly chosen to show off their attributes, I don't know how that can be seen as equality, its basically denying them the opportunity because someone somewhere has decided its not the "proper" way for a woman to be perceived, it's like we are going backward if anything

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but it is only a ‘perspective’, or a conclusion if you like that some feminists are jealous of pretty girls, of darts walk on girls or F1 grid girls etc...it doesn’t have any logic to it but has just become a ‘society perepective’...as you say, individuals within feminism have their reasons for feeling certain things don’t ‘represent’ in a positive way, for either them or their children and it has nothing to do with any physically attractive stuff....whether that’s agreed with or not, I don’t think ‘jealousy’ comes into it..(for most women and most feminists..)...it’s more an aversion and resistance to sexism and sexist remarks because it’s felt those are not helpful in any progression...and every one of us fits our own narrative../..our own individuality...some females disregard all aspects of feminism completely and some focus on aspects where they feel the focus could help in progressions to be made etc...and that’s absolutely fine..we all focus on different things, depending on our individuality...and because of our individualism we won’t always agree when bans should be looked at or not looked at etc...but that all hazes it as well and detracts the focus, it oppresses, it suppresses...as has been said, there has to be femism before true equality can be achieved in some areas that are needed...why..?...because it’s only in more recent times that women have been given opportunities to set any agendas which have influenced legislation and changes...legislation/rules etc has been a ‘typical male job’ through most decades and most times...so now feminism is trying to reach the equal status needed for every individual....

I’m all for total equality for men and women but to me equality doesn’t mean that we’re the same.For me it would be everyone having the choice to do what they want or what makes them happiest.For some women modelling or advertising is what they enjoy.All i see from the current iteration of feminism is feminist women trying to oppress everyone.Men and other women or anyone that doesn’t agree with their particular brand.Yes i know that there are many differing feminist views but it seems that there is a current hardline and dictatorial ideology which is becoming more mainstream and tries to demonise anybody(men and women) who don’t subscribe to the narrative.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yeah I don't really get the objectifying thing, when females get to ogle men with good bodies with no censure, yet if its the other way around it's deemed to be a terrible thing and women are seen as pieces of meat, even though they have willingly chosen to show off their attributes, I don't know how that can be seen as equality, its basically denying them the opportunity because someone somewhere has decided its not the "proper" way for a woman to be perceived, it's like we are going backward if anything

Totally agree

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yeah I don't really get the objectifying thing, when females get to ogle men with good bodies with no censure, yet if its the other way around it's deemed to be a terrible thing and women are seen as pieces of meat, even though they have willingly chosen to show off their attributes, I don't know how that can be seen as equality, its basically denying them the opportunity because someone somewhere has decided its not the "proper" way for a woman to be perceived, it's like we are going backward if anything

It's double standards for sure