[Tom4784]

He probably was a racist, it was more acceptable back then. I don't think ignoring that aspect and saying it's 'besmirching' Churchill's legacy is a very healthy attitude to take. Most historical 'heroes' are far from perfect and it's important to remember that.

It's quite a PC attitude to try to protect historical figures from criticism for fear of causing offense. No one is above criticism.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

He probably was a racist, it was more acceptable back then. I don't think ignoring that aspect and saying it's 'besmirching' Churchill's legacy is a very healthy attitude to take. Most historical 'heroes' are far from perfect and it's important to remember that.

It's quite a PC attitude to try to protect historical figures from criticism for fear of causing offense. No one is above criticism.

true, but a hero like Churchill has done great unforgettable things in WWII

[Tom4784]

He was a human like anyone else, I don't think the darker aspects of his character should be wiped away for the sake of his achievements because they were a part of who he was. Most figures like Churchill operated in shades of grey and I think it's rewriting history to ignore the parts that might 'besmirch' his legacy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"i think that a fundamental British value is integrity and intellectual curiosity"


what is a British value, who decides on them and who decides what they are?

What is integrity?

What is intellectual curiosity, define intellectual?


"i cant understand why the British nation in 2018 are comfortable with a Propagandist version 0f history"

who is comfortable?

what is a Propagandist version 0f history?

---------------

This awful woman is literally making up here own facts and data to hang her massive shoulder chip on

just vile

[Twosugars]

Don't see a problem telling things as they were, after all, hiding them would be worse and those reading original sources would discover them anyway,
but need to put a disclaimer that his was a prevalent attitude at the time.
No point in trying to whitewash things though.
He overindulged in alcohol, used drugs, suffered from depression etc, that doesn't dimish him, just makes him human.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Lets face it she is doing this to make herself feel important, its more about her than anyone else

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Lets face it she is doing this to make herself feel important, its more about her than anyone else

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

Nicky is dragging LT

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Lets face it she is doing this to make herself feel important, its more about her than anyone else

This, pretty much.

[Northern Monkey]

I knew who it was going to be before i even clicked.
She was calling out for our historical statues to be torn down the other month.
I’ve seen her on a couple of things.She basically takes the anti British view on any topic.
(And she said she’s got a book coming out so she’s trying to get attention).

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I knew who it was going to be before i even clicked.
She was calling out for our historical statues to be torn down the other month.
I’ve seen her on a couple of things.She basically takes the anti British view on any topic.
(And she said she’s got a book coming out so she’s trying to get attention).

Silly c*w - who does she think she is. She has no right to try to destroy our history or it’s legends whatever SHE thinks of them. A loud mouth control freak using PC to to get her own way and endorse that massive chip on her shoulder. History is history and cannot be changed by tearing down statues - it does not dictate the future, and neither does she. Neither does she dictate the rights and wrongs of the past.

The day she can prove to the world she is PERFECT is the day anyone should even consider taking her seriously on this - and on many other issues I suspect.

[Tom4784]

People are more than their achievements, we shouldn't aim to silence someone because they are speaking hard truths about someone that history considers a hero. Pretty much every 'Hero' in history is deeply flawed and operated in a shade of grey, to ignore that for the sake of their legacies is revisionist history at it's best.

Churchil did a lot for the country, he was also a bastard and, like many people at the time, he had views that would be considered racist today. I don't see the issue with talking about the more problematic aspects of his life for it's a part of who he was.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People are more than their achievements, we shouldn't aim to silence someone because they are speaking hard truths about someone that history considers a hero. Pretty much every 'Hero' in history is deeply flawed and operated in a shade of grey, to ignore that for the sake of their legacies is revisionist history at it's best.

Churchil did a lot for the country, he was also a bastard and, like many people at the time, he had views that would be considered racist today. I don't see the issue with talking about the more problematic aspects of his life for it's a part of who he was.

It’s problematic if she is trying to suggest racism is purely a ‘white’ phenomena and trying to take the moral high ground. If she is too dumb to recognise that he was simply a product of his time, as are most people, that is her problem. Anyway she is just a troublemaker and most are aware of that.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It’s problematic if she is trying to suggest racism is purely a ‘white’ phenomena and trying to take the moral high ground. If she is too dumb to recognise that he was simply a product of his time, as are most people, that is her problem. Anyway she is just a troublemaker and most are aware of that.

any attention is good for the book sales, positive or negative attention

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It’s problematic if she is trying to suggest racism is purely a ‘white’ phenomena and trying to take the moral high ground. If she is too dumb to recognise that he was simply a product of his time, as are most people, that is her problem. Anyway she is just a troublemaker and most are aware of that.

While plenty of people do believe the "racism=power+privilege, only white people can be racist" rubbish, I don't think she was arguing that. Saying "a man from the last century is racist" isn't the same as saying "all white people are racist".

[AnnieK]

To be honest, it would be good to see the "bad" side of Churchill and many others of his time to show the "good" that came of WWII and being able to become more progressive as a nation and embrace other ethnicities. Times were different then no doubt about it and we should now be able to celebrate how much further we have come to become more tolerant of others by showing the attitudes of the times back then.

[Nicky91]

i also have my good and bad points, everyone has their good and bad points as Brillo pointed out

i tend to look at the good points more, cause i don't like criticism or talking negatively about other people, i find that rude


Churchill's good points rise above his bad points, i don't want him to go from hero to villain, and then all his actions during WWII to be just forgotten

[Withano]

He wasn't a good man. People are allowed that opinion.

Christ. You'd be the first to cry freedom of speech, yet you're here saying people aren't allowed an opinion on a president haha.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

He wasn't a good man. People are allowed that opinion.

Christ. You'd be the first to cry freedom of speech, yet you're here saying people aren't allowed an opinion on a president haha.

He wasn’t a bad one either!

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

He wasn’t a bad one either!

Some might say that.. they are entitled to say that.. Just didn’t realise you were so against freedom of speech brillo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Some might say that.. they are entitled to say that.. Just didn’t realise you were so against freedom of speech brillo.

Well it is likely neither of us would be able to enjoy free speech without him and his efforts. Never wise to bite the hand that feeds you so to speak.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Well it is likely neither of us would be able to enjoy free speech without him and his efforts. Never wise to bite the hand that feeds you so to speak.

....you’re trying to limit free speech though?... shes either not allowed to say bad stuff about this historical figure because free speech doesnt matter... or she is allowed to say what she likes because free speech does matter, and your thread is silly?

[bots]

He was a privileged politician. How many of them have we had through history without fault. Indeed, how many politicians have we had without fault full stop

He won the war, he was the right man for the task at that time. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Beso]

At the time he spoke the truth.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Withano

He wasn't a good man. People are allowed that opinion.

Christ. You'd be the first to cry freedom of speech, yet you're here saying people aren't allowed an opinion on a president haha.

Not President Churchill!

Originally Posted by parmnion

At the time he spoke the truth.

No he didn't. Just because those views were practically a consensus, it doesn't mean they were the truth.