[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by DemRed

When I came back in here, this thread was already half way though and I've only read the thread onward from there. I think anyone supporting Hamas are confused, but then I think anyone supporting the IDF are confused as well. Both are terrorists, both have terrorized and for 70 odd years, one of them has got away with systematic terrorism before the world woke up.

Most people say "Israel and Hamas" when referring to the combatants, so as to remove Palestinians from blame.

How would you feel about saying "IDF and Hamas", removing Israelis from blame?

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Nope still none on page 3...we did get slim popping in to back hamas though...so there is support for hamas on TIBB, Demred was wrong..

Quote my support for Hamas, please. Let's all have a look at it.

[Livia]

I found the posts to which you refer, Parm. I must be a geenyus or somethin'.

[bots]

The west hasn't exactly got a very good track record in the region when it comes to joined up thinking, so quite honestly, I think we should keep out of it as much as we can. What i can say is that one small policy change can have some very unexpected consequences, so i hope those western leaders are ready to accept what results from it all.

With elections in both the UK and USA approaching imminently, they can be won or lost in a heartbeat because voters now seem to have the attention span of an average fish.

In the space of a month, Biden has gone from, our support for Israel is iron clad to them purposefully withholding weapons and he is considered to be the stable option going into the future

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The west hasn't exactly got a very good track record in the region when it comes to joined up thinking, so quite honestly, I think we should keep out of it as much as we can. What i can say is that one small policy change can have some very unexpected consequences, so i hope those western leaders are ready to accept what results from it all.

With elections in both the UK and USA approaching imminently, they can be won or lost in a heartbeat because voters now seem to have the attention span of an average fish.

In the space of a month, Biden has gone from, our support for Israel is iron clad to them purposefully withholding weapons and he is considered to be the stable option going into the future

Let's face it, the creation of Israel in the first place (rightly or wrongly, I'm not passing judgement on that here) was a combination of PR and global positioning strategy. If the existence of Israel no longer plays well politically in the west, then the preservation of Israel purely comes down to strategic value... and I think the US (to be blunt) in 2024 has other options if necessary. Governments, as a rule, are never legitimately acting out of altruism. They weren't when they entered WW2 in the first place (that any of the motivation for doing so was because of the persecution of Jewish people is demonstrably a flat out lie), they weren't when they created the state of Israel, and they aren't now.

[DemRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

In the space of a month, Biden has gone from, our support for Israel is iron clad to them purposefully withholding weapons and he is considered to be the stable option going into the future

That's because an election is coming up and the forecast says, 85% of Americans won't vote for Biden because of his support for Israel.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by DemRed

That's because an election is coming up and the forecast says, 85% of Americans won't vote for Biden because of his support for Israel.

That's just not true...biden was losing all support long before Oct 9th...and it's all down to his physical condition. Nothing to do with israel.

[DemRed]

Day 1 of the new UN vote for Palestinian UN membership and a 2 state solution.
152 countries voted Yes
2 countries voted No
12 countries refrained from voting.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by DemRed

Day 1 of the new UN vote for Palestinian UN membership and a 2 state solution.
152 countries voted Yes
2 countries voted No
12 countries refrained from voting.

YOu act like the UN has any credibility

it does not

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by DemRed

Day 1 of the new UN vote for Palestinian UN membership and a 2 state solution.
152 countries voted Yes
2 countries voted No
12 countries refrained from voting.

It shouldn't even be a question while Palestine is "governed" by Hamas.

[DemRed]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It shouldn't even be a question while Palestine is "governed" by Hamas.

Most of the countries who voted yes, said it was on the proviso that Hamas no longer governed Palestine.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by DemRed

Most of the countries who voted yes, said it was on the proviso that Hamas no longer governed Palestine.

We all know how much they care about their citizens, so I'm nearly certain they'd step down for the good of their people.

[Beso]

So if hamas are justified in their actions on Oct 9th because of years and years of terrorist israeli actions, does that mean me as a westerner can go and mutilate,kidnapping, and rape just any old Muslim because of the terrorist attacks we have suffered from muslim led terrorist groups?

No, no it doesnt, because that would be cruel and stupid..

[Beso]

I also see hamas have attacked the pier that the aid shipments use to unload the much needed aid that the Palestinians need.

[Crimson Dynamo]

[DemRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

[Beso]

Jews are often portrayed as whiney in films.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The charge goes unchallenged on the BBC. But it is a depressing rehashing of
age-old anti-Semitic tropes about Jewish blood lust



The battle to destroy Israel is not just fought with weapons. In the wider world, Hamas’s fellow travellers have been fighting to eradicate the Jewish state for many decades, and their chosen weapon is words.

In recent years the accusation they have alighted on is that Israel is an apartheid state. It’s a powerful weapon because the word is so poisonous. And the more it is repeated the more it becomes accepted as “fact”.

But since Israel began its response to Hamas’s October 7 massacre, another word has entered the “destroy Israel” lexicon: genocide. If apartheid is bad, genocide is of course a different order of magnitude.

If screaming “apartheid” has an impact in delegitimising the very basis of Israel’s existence, accusing it of genocide is a still more powerful weapon. So it has, likewise, been repeated until it has now become accepted as fact – such that it can be asserted without contradiction.

On yesterday’s Today programme, for example, a student referred to as “Issy” claimed that Israel had been found guilty by the International Court of Justice of a “plausible genocide”. The presenter, Amol Rajan, did not correct her. Given how often this lie is repeated, perhaps Rajan thought it a statement of fact.

But the ICJ’s presiding judge at the time of the Gaza ruling, Joan Donoghue, has made clear that the court made no such finding. Rather, the ICJ held that Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide in Gaza in theory.

Donoghue told the BBC’s own HardTalk programme that the court “didn’t decide that the claim of genocide was plausible…[T]he shorthand that often appears which is that there is a plausible case of genocide isn’t what the court decided.”

Genocide is a specific crime, which is when certain acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

It has now become accepted as “fact” that Israel has killed over 30,000 people in Gaza, 70 per cent of whom are women and children. That these statistics are supplied by Hamas, via its health ministry, is sometimes mentioned as an afterthought. But that they are clearly correct is assumed as a given.

Yet when these figures are looked at in the context of analysis by some of the world’s leading statisticians, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that they have been seized upon primarily as a confirmation of Jewish blood lust – one of the most familiar of anti-Semitic tropes.

Data scientist Professor Abraham Wyner of the University of Pennsylvania appears to show that the civilian death toll is statistically impossible: “The daily totals increase too consistently to be real”, rising daily “with almost metronomical linearity”.

He writes that Hamas “assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.”

In some data sets, it would seem, men must have come back to life while on several days no men were apparently killed, only women.

As Prof Wyner claims, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters”. Indeed, the actual ratio of civilian casualties to Hamas terrorists is “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”.

This matters not just because it matters to be correct, but because it exposes the accusation of genocide to be a lie. The legal standard for the death of civilians is “willful.” Far from there being evidence to support this, the facts show the opposite.

John Spencer, professor of Urban War Studies at West Point, argues that “Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history – above and beyond what international law requires and more than the US did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – setting a standard that will be both hard and potentially problematic to repeat.”

This includes, he claims. evacuating 70 to 90 per cent of civilians from cities before beginning a full ground invasion in conventional attacks that seek to destroy enemy defenders. The US did not do this in the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Vietnam Tet counter-offensive or the Korean War.

And the IDF’s Civilian Harm Mitigation Cell tracks the presence of civilians in real time uses that to drive its operations to minimise the risk of civilian casualties.

But this is war, and civilians die in war. Especially when one of the combatants deliberately embeds itself among civilians specifically to maximise the civilian death toll.

As always, novelist Howard Jacobson gets to the heart of the issue: “There is a sadistic triumphalism in charging Jews with genocide, as though those making it feel they have their man at last. The sadism resides, specifically, in attacking Jews where their memories of pain are keenest. By making them now the torturer and not the tortured, their assailants wrest their anguish from them, not only stealing their past but trampling on it.”

Added to that is the sick irony that there is indeed a wish for genocide – by Hamas, the terrorist group which massacred 1200 Israelis on October 7 and which is committed in its founding charter not just to the death of all Israelis but to the elimination of all Jews, everywhere.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ting-genocide/

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The charge goes unchallenged on the BBC. But it is a depressing rehashing of
age-old anti-Semitic tropes about Jewish blood lust



The battle to destroy Israel is not just fought with weapons. In the wider world, Hamas’s fellow travellers have been fighting to eradicate the Jewish state for many decades, and their chosen weapon is words.

In recent years the accusation they have alighted on is that Israel is an apartheid state. It’s a powerful weapon because the word is so poisonous. And the more it is repeated the more it becomes accepted as “fact”.

But since Israel began its response to Hamas’s October 7 massacre, another word has entered the “destroy Israel” lexicon: genocide. If apartheid is bad, genocide is of course a different order of magnitude.

If screaming “apartheid” has an impact in delegitimising the very basis of Israel’s existence, accusing it of genocide is a still more powerful weapon. So it has, likewise, been repeated until it has now become accepted as fact – such that it can be asserted without contradiction.

On yesterday’s Today programme, for example, a student referred to as “Issy” claimed that Israel had been found guilty by the International Court of Justice of a “plausible genocide”. The presenter, Amol Rajan, did not correct her. Given how often this lie is repeated, perhaps Rajan thought it a statement of fact.

But the ICJ’s presiding judge at the time of the Gaza ruling, Joan Donoghue, has made clear that the court made no such finding. Rather, the ICJ held that Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide in Gaza in theory.

Donoghue told the BBC’s own HardTalk programme that the court “didn’t decide that the claim of genocide was plausible…[T]he shorthand that often appears which is that there is a plausible case of genocide isn’t what the court decided.”

Genocide is a specific crime, which is when certain acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

It has now become accepted as “fact” that Israel has killed over 30,000 people in Gaza, 70 per cent of whom are women and children. That these statistics are supplied by Hamas, via its health ministry, is sometimes mentioned as an afterthought. But that they are clearly correct is assumed as a given.

Yet when these figures are looked at in the context of analysis by some of the world’s leading statisticians, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that they have been seized upon primarily as a confirmation of Jewish blood lust – one of the most familiar of anti-Semitic tropes.

Data scientist Professor Abraham Wyner of the University of Pennsylvania appears to show that the civilian death toll is statistically impossible: “The daily totals increase too consistently to be real”, rising daily “with almost metronomical linearity”.

He writes that Hamas “assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.”

In some data sets, it would seem, men must have come back to life while on several days no men were apparently killed, only women.

As Prof Wyner claims, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters”. Indeed, the actual ratio of civilian casualties to Hamas terrorists is “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”.

This matters not just because it matters to be correct, but because it exposes the accusation of genocide to be a lie. The legal standard for the death of civilians is “willful.” Far from there being evidence to support this, the facts show the opposite.

John Spencer, professor of Urban War Studies at West Point, argues that “Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history – above and beyond what international law requires and more than the US did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – setting a standard that will be both hard and potentially problematic to repeat.”

This includes, he claims. evacuating 70 to 90 per cent of civilians from cities before beginning a full ground invasion in conventional attacks that seek to destroy enemy defenders. The US did not do this in the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Vietnam Tet counter-offensive or the Korean War.

And the IDF’s Civilian Harm Mitigation Cell tracks the presence of civilians in real time uses that to drive its operations to minimise the risk of civilian casualties.

But this is war, and civilians die in war. Especially when one of the combatants deliberately embeds itself among civilians specifically to maximise the civilian death toll.

As always, novelist Howard Jacobson gets to the heart of the issue: “There is a sadistic triumphalism in charging Jews with genocide, as though those making it feel they have their man at last. The sadism resides, specifically, in attacking Jews where their memories of pain are keenest. By making them now the torturer and not the tortured, their assailants wrest their anguish from them, not only stealing their past but trampling on it.”

Added to that is the sick irony that there is indeed a wish for genocide – by Hamas, the terrorist group which massacred 1200 Israelis on October 7 and which is committed in its founding charter not just to the death of all Israelis but to the elimination of all Jews, everywhere.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ting-genocide/

i hope they will invade the malmo arena tonight, to disturb that pathetic song contest ****show

karma to the israeli money lovers in the EBU

[Crimson Dynamo]

Latest IDF map for the civilian evacuation in Rafah.

A lot to unpack here, but the key point is that humanitarian requirements force Israel to
reveal their plans in advance.

By giving up the element of surprise, they’re effectively risking IDF lives to save Gazan
civilians.



https://x.com/Mr_Andrew_Fox/status/1789199652786467086

[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Latest IDF map for the civilian evacuation in Rafah.

A lot to unpack here, but the key point is that humanitarian requirements force Israel to
reveal their plans in advance.

By giving up the element of surprise, they’re effectively risking IDF lives to save Gazan
civilians.



https://x.com/Mr_Andrew_Fox/status/1789199652786467086

in just about any other conflict around the world, residents would go into cellars, bunkers and tunnels, but because of hamas, thats just not an option. They would also go to hospitals or community centres, but because of hamas tactics, thats not an option

[arista]

[Israel has ordered thousands more Rafah
residents to evacuate the city as it steps
up attacks in Gaza,
and claims to have had face-to-face
battles with Hamas
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has been
intensifying operations around the southern city,
where more than a million displaced
people are sheltering
The latest evacuation order came hours
after the US said Israel may have breached
international law with US weapons in Gaza
A US government report says it is
"reasonable to assess" that arms have
been used in ways "inconsistent"
with Israel's obligations - but stopped short
of halting shipments
The UN says more than 80,000 people
have fled Rafah since Monday,
after Israel warned people to evacuate
ahead of a planned major offensive]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...-east-68990918

[arista]

[arista]

Labour Party Jonathon Ashworth MP.
(Shadow Paymaster General)
claims they will back Biden
in saying that there will be
no selling of UK-made arms to Israel.

If they, attack Refah in full.


Ref: BBC1HD Laura Live.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by arista

Labour Party Jonathon Ashworth MP.
(Shadow Paymaster General)
claims they will back Biden
in saying that there will be
no selling of UK-made arms to Israel.

If they, attack Refah in full.


Ref: BBC1HD Laura Live.

Jonathon Ashworth is a slimy faced imbecile


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