[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..also I think that we all have to experience the very good and the very bad/evil in life as well as everything in-between, it's just the way it is and always has been...but having children helps to balance out that goodness and people in general are still intrinsically good.../the evil are very much a minority...

Great to see the kids get out alive

The Terrorist in the Kosher Store
the 4 that died were killed before the Police went in
so they may have tried to take his AK47

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..also I think that we all have to experience the very good and the very bad/evil in life as well as everything in-between, it's just the way it is and always has been...but having children helps to balance out that goodness and people in general are still intrinsically good.../the evil are very much a minority...

completely agree with this, if we looked at all the things that could potentially happen to our children in life, accidents, illness, addiction etc no one would ever have a child.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There is no validity in stating; "That goes without saying" in the context of my post, because if there has been no condemnation of the terrorists and their slaughter by the very people who have criticised us who have condemned it, then "goes without saying" means nothing other than it hasn't been said.

As for; "a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust."

I agree Kizzy, but to make this comment in a response where you begin by quoting me, would suggest that you are directing these comments to me, and I have plenty of perspective.

I am sick of stating that I do not link Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists with 'ordinary' Muslims, nor do I favour punishing 'ordinary' Muslims anywhere in the world for the crimes of Islamic Terrorists, and I have stated as much in many long posts on various threads.

I must add though, that the above does not mean that immigration and terrorism are not strongly linked, because they are.

In addition, the fact that someone is a 'British' Muslim does not preclude him/her from also being a terrorist or terrorist supporter and sympathiser.

There is too much 'defensive' aggressive overreaction on this forum. When I stated that a large percentage of people claiming benefits in this country shouldn't be, I came under attack by people claiming that I was "attacking the weakest targets of society", "picking on the sick and poor" etc. etc.

The point is, they were all so blinded by their own ideaologies they just did not bother to try to understand what I was so clearly stating. I was not attacking any genuine ill or disabled person, I was attacking those claiming benefits who weren't ill or disabled or needy.

It is exactly the same with this subject. No matter how many times I state that I am not blaming ordinary Muslims, the bigoted, blinkered idiots on here ignore my statements so they can start to attack from a totally false premise.

It gets wearing.

I validated it when I said it, and I explained why I said it too.
Of course there are home grown terrorists but again what percentages are we talking when you consider the vast Muslim conurbations in the UK?
That's what I meant when using the word perspective not your personal view.
Nobody is being an idiot they are having their say as you are, if you have nothing against ordinary muslims then it seems there's been some common ground reached as that's all anyone can do.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Bit dramatic we are the lucky generation (so far) of this century, we haven't sent anyone to war, we havent had food rationed, we haven't had to leave our homes to take shelter from bombs etc etc

Great point cherie, whenever and wherever conflict happens in the world it keeps turning doesn't it?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Bit dramatic we are the lucky generation (so far) of this century, we haven't sent anyone to war, we havent had food rationed, we haven't had to leave our homes to take shelter from bombs etc etc

Yet. Britain has waded into several conflicts and turned itself into a target for retribution. We're at war whether we like it or not.

[Toy Soldier]

I'll have to keep this relatively brief, on my lunch break (and also phone typing, so apologies in advance for any typos).

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I couldn't agree more, as your post below is but one example:

They don't even have to be particularly careful about hiding it. People naturally won't believe it to be the case. They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option.


Although you fail to identify; "They", your statement above is so typical of a 'narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread" - one of utter denial and terrorist apologetics.

I will address this later as you quoted it twice.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

FACT:

A) The terrorists committing these atrocious acts of barbaric cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians, are MUSLIM by FAITH. Extremist they undoubtedly are, and not typical of ORDINARY MUSLIMS they may be, but MUSLIM they are, nonetheless.

I don't disagree with you and said as much in my last post. The people committing these acts, who are there waving guns and blowing themselves to pieces, are Muslims. Devout and religious ones. To be doing these things they would frankly have to be because no rational free-thinking person would put themselves in that position. There is nothing to gain. They will die. By necessity the only people who would do it are those who believe in a reward in the afterlife.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

B) Being ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS, these terrorist by SELF-PROCLAMATION, do indeed, irrefutably "HATE OUR (Western Infidel, Non-Muslim) WAY OF LIFE"

As above, this is of course true. It's part of the indoctrination process. For them to feel that they will be rewarded for killing in the afterlife, again, by necessity, they must believe that the people they are killing deserve to be killed.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

C) Unfettered IMMIGRATION - especially of Muslims - is causally linked,, beyond all doubt to the murderous acts of terrorism currently being perpetrated in various countries throughout the world. The atrocities in France, Australia, Bulgaria, The UK, Azerbaijan, Greece (do you need anymore?) were carried out by IMMIGRANTS living in those countries, or sons of IMMIGRANTS who were born in those countries.

When Osama Bin Laden was finally tracked down and killed, thousands of Muslims in the UK took to the streets in support of him, announcing him as an Islamic hero and condemned the role of US and West in killing him.

Wasn't mad mongrel hate preacher Anjem Choudary – who praised both 7/7 and the September 11 attacks among other atrocities - an IMMIGRANT to this country

In March of 2012, "Azerbaijani security services reported the arrest of 22 individuals, all Azerbaijani citizens (IMMIGRANTS) accused of working with Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to carry out terrorist attacks against Western embassies and other groups with Western ties."

I'm even prepared to tentatively state that you have a point there, buried in all of that. The people carrying out these attacks are indeed often immigrants and removing them from the equation may indeed increase security (in the short term) but I fully and completely believe that these dangerous people are ONLY a weapon. They are the guns, they are the bullets, they are not the finger on the trigger. You don't beat a holly by taking away the stick he's been hitting people with... He will just find another, bigger stick. With thorns on it. In other words: cut immigration and another way will simply be found.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

C) So, in light of the above FACTS and a thousand similar ones, and in accordance with the principles of 'Occam's Razor', our views that Islamic Terrorists are Muslim, that they hate our way of life, and that immigration is linked to terrorism, is not "the easy option" at all, but a totally rational conclusion based specifically upon the overwhelming and heavy preponderance of factual evidence.

For anyone to make a statement to the contrary that; "They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option."
is not only a "narrow or simplistic viewpoint" it is a very juvenile one.

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;7463692]

Now I will address this and draw your attention to something. I said the notion that it is JUST immigrants / Muslims etc. Not that it isn't. Just that there is more to it. So much more, that your solution simply would not work. It would not stop this. It's a red herring.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

As for;

"People naturally WANT to believe that terrorist attacks and organisations are blotches of darkness and hatred on a world that is light and good. They can't handle the truth that terrorism is just a tiny glimpse, a shark fin peeking through the waves, a symptom of a darkness that runs deeper than they can bare to imagine. "

I haven't a clue what you're going on about.

People want the answer to be simple because then they have somewhere to focus their understandable anger and because it makes it seem like the solution might be simple, too. Which makes them feel safer. If people want something to be true then they are more likely to believe that it is.

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Finally, I wish you'd explain:

"Like I said - duck and cover. This **** is scripted. You just have to hope that you're not a Redshirt like Charlie."

And tell us all just "who" has scripted just "what" ****? Is it Shane Black, or William Goldman? _________________

I don't know if you know what a "redshirt" is but just incase: it originates from Star Trek, and has become shorthand for a small character who is killed off for the sake of advancing the plot. I. E. A redshirt is killed by aliens, so now Kirk and Co must destroy those aliens, to avenge redshirt and to save the enterprise. And the audience cheers them on.

I can't tell you "who" has motivation for this absolute madness, Kirk, nor what those motivations are. The geopolitical mess tangled up in this, and in Russia / Ukraine, and North Korea and their hackers, is near unfathomable but that does not mean it isn't there.

You get to see the villains, you get to see the heroes, you get to see the action. You DON'T get to see the writers. Thats the whole point. I know you don't understand this Kirk and I know that you disagree, I know that for you it is simple. That herding all of the immigrants into a corner in the middle east and dropping a bomb would solve the problem forever. But I will never share that ideology.

I know that the terrorists are Muslims and I know that their individual motivations are hatred and religion. I also know that if it wasn't them, it would simply be someone else.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Z

Yet. Britain has waded into several conflicts and turned itself into a target for retribution. We're at war whether we like it or not.

I don't know waded in is the correct term Z, we will have treaties with other countries to provide aid and or support and them us didn't you do this diplomatic type stuff in uni?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post

FACT:

A) The terrorists committing these atrocious acts of barbaric cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians, are MUSLIM by FAITH. Extremist they undoubtedly are, and not typical of ORDINARY MUSLIMS they may be, but MUSLIM they are, nonetheless.

I've just nicked a bit of your posts to make a side note that not all terrorists are Muslim from birth, that some are converts identified and radicalised by extremists.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Z

Yet. Britain has waded into several conflicts and turned itself into a target for retribution. We're at war whether we like it or not.

Bali has been a terrorist target, what did they do to deserve it., my point is as civilians apart from being searched at airports our lives are practically unaffected by current events, not saying that might not change in the future.

[Sticks]

Point of information, the 7/7 bombers were British Born Muslims.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Point of information, the 7/7 bombers were British Born Muslims.

Yes Revenge for Blairs/Bush Iraq

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Sticks

Point of information, the 7/7 bombers were British Born Muslims.

True Sticks, but I did say:

"Unfettered IMMIGRATION - especially of Muslims - is causally linked,, beyond all doubt to the murderous acts of terrorism currently being perpetrated in various countries throughout the world. The atrocities in France, Australia, Bulgaria, The UK, Azerbaijan, Greece (do you need anymore?) were carried out by IMMIGRANTS living in those countries, or sons of IMMIGRANTS who were born in those countries." :

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not apologetics Kirk, I am absolutely not denying that religious extremists are dangerous or that these atrocities are being carried out by religious extremists. I am an anti-theist. I can't stand organised religion. It's been used to twist and manipulate world events for THOUSANDS of years and enough is enough.

However, I am also well aware that the people who are creating these "monsters" (I will conceed and use that phrase) are NOT religious. They use religion because they know that they can warp it to their purpose. The masterminds don't blow themselves up, they send gullible kids to do it. Why? Why, if they believe truly in martyrdom and that they will go to paradise, do they convert and twist others to do it in their place? Answer: because they do not believe in paradise. They know it's a lie. But they know that others do believe it and that is useful to them.

Islam truly is the only religion left that would follow such a path. A thousand years ago, Christianity was used in EXACTLY the same way, to use the devout as weapons. As I said, the older religions have reached a stage where they are more philosophical and interpretative and mostly not dogmatic. Dogmatic churches are small and not useful.

I don't believe in the illuminati Kirk but I do know that you must look deeper than surface appearances to find the truth in this world.

Interesting post, and in the same vein did anyone see the videos floating around the web that set to show that the film footage of the Paris policeman being executed by the two gunman on wed is in fact a fake.

The video blogger went into great detail shoeing that this was faked as there was no blood and the gun that fired the headshot to kill the policeman actually missed his head .

He showed all the camera angles and trajectory points and he also proved the position of the shooting had changed from the footage shown the day after.

An interesting and thought provoking video which left me puzzled as I could not fault his evidence.

So now a new dimension enters the story, was any of it faked ? If so why ? To benefit whom ?

Anyone on here hear any of this ? Or can shed any light on this .





.

[LeatherTrumpet]

until we stop parents and communities from abusing children with religious lies this will always happen

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

until we stop parents and communities from abusing children with religious lies this will always happen

Actually agree with that LT. I fully accept any adult's right to explore and choose a religion if that's what floats their boat but I reject the notion that parents get to be the masters of their children's destinies by indoctrinating them into a church - any church - while their minds are still so fragile and easily moulded. People instinctually are horrified by it when it's something like scientology or a tiny cult run by Billy Hick on a farm in central America, yet when it's a "proper" religion it's accepted without question. Why? Just because "more people believe it"? It's not actually any different... 20 followers, 50,000 or 2 billion... Forcing a religious belief system onto a young mind is not right. It lays a groundwork that is wide open to exploitation. And that does apply to all of the major religions.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Interesting post, and in the same vein did anyone see the videos floating around the web that set to show that the film footage of the Paris policeman being executed by the two gunman on wed is in fact a fake.

The video blogger went into great detail shoeing that this was faked as there was no blood and the gun that fired the headshot to kill the policeman actually missed his head .

He showed all the camera angles and trajectory points and he also proved the position of the shooting had changed from the footage shown the day after.

An interesting and thought provoking video which left me puzzled as I could not fault his evidence.

So now a new dimension enters the story, was any of it faked ? If so why ? To benefit whom ?

Anyone on here hear any of this ? Or can shed any light on this .





.

I'm not huge on Internet conspiracy theories usually, but I do know that an assault rifle firing a 7.62x39mm round at near point blank range into someone's skull would make a serious ****ing mess. I have to wonder.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't know waded in is the correct term Z, we will have treaties with other countries to provide aid and or support and them us didn't you do this diplomatic type stuff in uni?

I think it's all too easy for us, UK citizens in 2015, to see what's happening around us and not take into account the decades and decades of history that have led to this point - the many different religions forced to live together and share territory in the Middle East were forced to do so by Western leaders who were acting in their own self interest. So I think it was a mistake for us to go into Iraq in 2003 because it's just kicking the hornet's nest (yet again) - we, the collective we, are to blame for stirring up the religious tension in that region just as much as the people who are living there are to blame for acting on their tension and irritations. My comment was coming from that point of view - I think the more we continue to get involved in the Middle East, the more likely we are to be on the receiving end of a hellish series of terrorist attacks that might never end because we live in the age of the internet and smart phones and travelling without borders because we're in the European Union and everybody is better informed than they ever were at any point in time in history... That is why I believe that we're at war whether we like it or not. Except what we're at war with doesn't have a territory we can beat into submission like all enemies in all previous wars known to man have had... because no army can stop an idea, you can't kill an idea. The idea is that the West is decadent and has caused a great deal of pain and suffering to devout Muslims and the West needs to be punished... and I don't even think they're wrong in thinking that way, because it's true, we, as a collective whole, over the last century at the very least, have helped to create this mess... which leads me onto Cherie's post...

Originally Posted by Cherie

Bali has been a terrorist target, what did they do to deserve it., my point is as civilians apart from being searched at airports our lives are practically unaffected by current events, not saying that might not change in the future.

Bali was a terrorist target because it had been Westernised - it had been subverted into a Western hedonistic tourist trap. I want to agree with you that our lives are practically unaffected but I can't because the truth is that our lives have already been affected, it's just that we won't wake up and smell the coffee until it happens on our doorstep. Do you think the people of Australia thought they were unaffected until a plane full of their nationals was shot down in Ukrainian territory or until a cafe was taken hostage by a radical preacher and several of its citizens taken hostage and a few even killed? Did the people of France think they were unaffected until some office workers were mown down, police officers shot, people taken hostage? The USA and 9/11? The UK and 7/7? We're at war with an idea that is so far widespread that I'm not sure there is any solution but to either back down completely and stop meddling in their affairs or to blow the world to bits in the hope that we might kill an abstract idea and somehow terrify people who aren't afraid to die into not pursuing their suicidal logic anymore.

The world is not a nice place to be living in right now. World War III is happening and those of us with a warm bed to sleep in at night won't believe it because it's much easier to convince ourselves that everything will be alright because it isn't happening to us, until it happens to us. Then we'll want the world to take notice of us but the world won't because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. I just hope I'm not one of the unlucky ones who gets caught up in the crisis when the **** eventually hits the fan in the UK. If it can happen to the USA, Australia and France, it can happen to us too. Terrorism doesn't respect borders.

[Ninastar]

Oh Greg....

[arista]

Sticks
King Rupert is with your viewpoint

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

Sticks
King Rupert is with your viewpoint

Is your comment a mistake Arista or are you being sarcastic? Because King Rupert's viewpoint is anything but Stick's viewpoint.

[arista]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Is your comment a mistake Arista or are you being sarcastic? Because King Rupert's viewpoint is anything but Stick's viewpoint.

I thought it will make Sticks Happy


King Rupert does not need to post on twitter

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Z

I think it's all too easy for us, UK citizens in 2015, to see what's happening around us and not take into account the decades and decades of history that have led to this point - the many different religions forced to live together and share territory in the Middle East were forced to do so by Western leaders who were acting in their own self interest. So I think it was a mistake for us to go into Iraq in 2003 because it's just kicking the hornet's nest (yet again) - we, the collective we, are to blame for stirring up the religious tension in that region just as much as the people who are living there are to blame for acting on their tension and irritations. My comment was coming from that point of view - I think the more we continue to get involved in the Middle East, the more likely we are to be on the receiving end of a hellish series of terrorist attacks that might never end because we live in the age of the internet and smart phones and travelling without borders because we're in the European Union and everybody is better informed than they ever were at any point in time in history... That is why I believe that we're at war whether we like it or not. Except what we're at war with doesn't have a territory we can beat into submission like all enemies in all previous wars known to man have had... because no army can stop an idea, you can't kill an idea. The idea is that the West is decadent and has caused a great deal of pain and suffering to devout Muslims and the West needs to be punished... and I don't even think they're wrong in thinking that way, because it's true, we, as a collective whole, over the last century at the very least, have helped to create this mess... which leads me onto Cherie's post...



Bali was a terrorist target because it had been Westernised - it had been subverted into a Western hedonistic tourist trap. I want to agree with you that our lives are practically unaffected but I can't because the truth is that our lives have already been affected, it's just that we won't wake up and smell the coffee until it happens on our doorstep. Do you think the people of Australia thought they were unaffected until a plane full of their nationals was shot down in Ukrainian territory or until a cafe was taken hostage by a radical preacher and several of its citizens taken hostage and a few even killed? Did the people of France think they were unaffected until some office workers were mown down, police officers shot, people taken hostage? The USA and 9/11? The UK and 7/7? We're at war with an idea that is so far widespread that I'm not sure there is any solution but to either back down completely and stop meddling in their affairs or to blow the world to bits in the hope that we might kill an abstract idea and somehow terrify people who aren't afraid to die into not pursuing their suicidal logic anymore.

The world is not a nice place to be living in right now. World War III is happening and those of us with a warm bed to sleep in at night won't believe it because it's much easier to convince ourselves that everything will be alright because it isn't happening to us, until it happens to us. Then we'll want the world to take notice of us but the world won't because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. I just hope I'm not one of the unlucky ones who gets caught up in the crisis when the **** eventually hits the fan in the UK. If it can happen to the USA, Australia and France, it can happen to us too. Terrorism doesn't respect borders.

Z what do you mean when the **** "eventually" hits the fan in the UK, Lee Rigby, the 7/7 bombings? and before that the IRA bombings, the UK has long been a target of terrorists. especially London, has it stopped people going about their daily business, has anyone had a second thought as to whether they should attend a crowded event, or take a train, or an airplane. No one said the World is a nice place now, but exactly when back through the ages has the World been a nice place, name me one era when dark and evil deeds were not carried out in the name of something or other, it's not so long ago we were putting kids up chimneys! at the moment countries are subject to random acts of terror, that has been the case for years, not sure what has suddenly changed? is it because people who live outside the major cities have suddenly realised oh this could come to my doorstep? because people living in major Cities have had that threat hanging over them for decades.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

I thought it will make Sticks Happy


King Rupert does not need to post on twitter

Aah. Arista is capable of brilliant sarcasm as well as being most strong and most wise.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No one said the World is a nice place now, but exactly when back through the ages has the World been a nice place, name me one era when dark and evil deeds were not carried out in the name of something or other, it's not so long ago we were putting kids up chimneys!

You may have a point there, it's not like things have ever been any better, and throughout history have at times been far worse for everyday people. Though I would personally argue, rarely much worse politically.

Personally, I think the only real difference is that the world is now so "connected", and everyone knows about everything that's going on. 150 years ago, if something like this happened in Paris it would probably have taken weeks for the news to spread beyond the major cities. A hundred years before that, residents of smaller towns and villages would probably never have heard anything about it. Most probably wouldn't even know about something like this happening in London.

But now - we don't just hear about it quickly - the whole world hears about it instantly. We hear about it live while the events are ongoing. And then we hear the follow-ups from normal people on social networking. Even as recently as 15 years ago that wasn't the case. Then we hear from world leaders within hours. Things become major global events that, once upon a time, simply wouldn't even have made front page news... to be read by the small percentage of people who were even literate.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Z

I think it's all too easy for us, UK citizens in 2015, to see what's happening around us and not take into account the decades and decades of history that have led to this point - the many different religions forced to live together and share territory in the Middle East were forced to do so by Western leaders who were acting in their own self interest. So I think it was a mistake for us to go into Iraq in 2003 because it's just kicking the hornet's nest (yet again) - we, the collective we, are to blame for stirring up the religious tension in that region just as much as the people who are living there are to blame for acting on their tension and irritations. My comment was coming from that point of view - I think the more we continue to get involved in the Middle East, the more likely we are to be on the receiving end of a hellish series of terrorist attacks that might never end because we live in the age of the internet and smart phones and travelling without borders because we're in the European Union and everybody is better informed than they ever were at any point in time in history... That is why I believe that we're at war whether we like it or not. Except what we're at war with doesn't have a territory we can beat into submission like all enemies in all previous wars known to man have had... because no army can stop an idea, you can't kill an idea. The idea is that the West is decadent and has caused a great deal of pain and suffering to devout Muslims and the West needs to be punished... and I don't even think they're wrong in thinking that way, because it's true, we, as a collective whole, over the last century at the very least, have helped to create this mess... which leads me onto Cherie's post...



Bali was a terrorist target because it had been Westernised - it had been subverted into a Western hedonistic tourist trap. I want to agree with you that our lives are practically unaffected but I can't because the truth is that our lives have already been affected, it's just that we won't wake up and smell the coffee until it happens on our doorstep. Do you think the people of Australia thought they were unaffected until a plane full of their nationals was shot down in Ukrainian territory or until a cafe was taken hostage by a radical preacher and several of its citizens taken hostage and a few even killed? Did the people of France think they were unaffected until some office workers were mown down, police officers shot, people taken hostage? The USA and 9/11? The UK and 7/7? We're at war with an idea that is so far widespread that I'm not sure there is any solution but to either back down completely and stop meddling in their affairs or to blow the world to bits in the hope that we might kill an abstract idea and somehow terrify people who aren't afraid to die into not pursuing their suicidal logic anymore.

The world is not a nice place to be living in right now. World War III is happening and those of us with a warm bed to sleep in at night won't believe it because it's much easier to convince ourselves that everything will be alright because it isn't happening to us, until it happens to us. Then we'll want the world to take notice of us but the world won't because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. I just hope I'm not one of the unlucky ones who gets caught up in the crisis when the **** eventually hits the fan in the UK. If it can happen to the USA, Australia and France, it can happen to us too. Terrorism doesn't respect borders.

I totally agree, someone posted a vid once of a news interview with a Muslim academic, he suggested that when those captured fighting for the taliban were shown videos of anti-war protests in the UK.. they couldn't believe it that we didn't want war at all as it was not what they had been led to believe.
I think modern war is a construct for power and the control of natural resources, it has nothing to do with religion or people or even money.
We just have to hope this was just a lone wolf attack with no direct involvement from any organisation.