[Crimson Dynamo]

Plenty of those having a go at Brillo making threads never make any themselves

Guess what?

If you make lots of threads you get lots of criticism...

Its easier to criticise than to create

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Depends on what the actual members in question did really doesn't it. I don't want to go into the behind the scenes stuff so will use a real life way tyo try and explain that decision I believe you are a teacher or work with kids? So this example should make sense, if I write it right

A, B, C, D and E are a group of friends. The group of friends decide to pick on F. A is abusive towards F over a period of time, culminating in A physically attacking F. B, C, D and E will lightly taunt occasionally, or maybe encourage A to be nasty. Would it be fair to punish all members of the group in exactly the same way? All should be punished for their parts, yes. But IMO, A deserves a harsher punishment.

The analogy is not perfect, or even entirely representative as I don't really want to drag it all up again. Just trying to explain why some bans are longer than others

I'm not a teacher Vicky ,just a teachers assistant at a special needs school,so yes I work with kids and I do see what you are saying there, but I still think some bans should have stayed in place but didn't, I suppose we all have different ideas of what is acceptable and what is not.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Plenty of those having a go at Brillo making threads never make any themselves

Guess what?

If you make lots of threads you get lots of criticism...

Its easier to criticise than to create

As i said LT ,I enjoy brillos threads and would love to debate about them more but sometimes it's just pointless. brillo has been a good asset to the forum,imo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Of course several people have grown weary of her posts! Her posts have led to a 20 page discussion. Me saying that barely makes me a bully, it's evidently entirely accurate. there are actually far worse (and more accurate) ways to describe brillos posting style but I reframed for the sake of it, you on the other hand... You personally not being bothered by (at the best) baity childishness or (at worst) actual racism is up to you.

Don't see anybody else on this forum ever be accused of racism, not even banned members really. So maybe we all need to have a think as to the single reason why that may be. The answer will shock you.

What a load of cr*p. Plenty of people on here get called racist - are you really trying to say it's only me - and it is nearly always from the same small crowd. You are one of the biggest baiters on here - I have even been pm'd and told to watch you and by nobody who was on here today either before you start trying to have a pop at people.

You accuse others - but you are a big part of the problem on here and the ONLY one I have had to put on ignore for more than 5 minutes. So do one.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Its exactly this kind of tit for tat stuff that should stop. Its that rubbish thats ruining this forum. Yes both sides are guilty at times too.. (though specifically on the brexit thing, I think most voters in general were unaware on what they were actually voting for due to the ridiculous media campaigns built on lies)

Its actually painful for me to read this forum at times, as I remember how decent it used to be and now half the posts seem to be 'ner ner you said this about me so I am saying this about you' rather than much actual reasoned discussion on stuff. This is partly why I took the hardlined reponse to moderation in here, which did result in some actions that may have been OTT at times and clearly didn't work given I ended up flouncing in the mod thread a few days ago and claiming I am not longer modding this section at all as everyone just ignores me

I hope, and this may be overly optimistic, that since this thread has cleared the air a bit and let everyone speak in depth, and also mods to explain a little of quite how moderation works...maybe this section can go back to being half decent. And from now hopefully, stop the tit for tat stuff. The bickering and pointless posts ruin this section. I don't think its fair to lay the blame on any few posters. Or on either 'side'. there is a huge difference between debating, and bickering.

I think you've slightly misinterpreted what I was saying but that's ok I've had a wonderful week!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I'm not a teacher Vicky ,just a teachers assistant at a special needs school,so yes I work with kids and I do see what you are saying there, but I still think some bans should have stayed in place but didn't, I suppose we all have different ideas of what is acceptable and what is not.

Another thing that comes into play when talking about longer bans, is how a member behaves whilst they are banned. Someone who makes a load of multis or continues harassing members in another way off forum, is unlikely to be considered for their bans lifted. Length of time since ban matters too sometimes, but thats dependent on what someone actually did to be banned in the first place.

So much discussion actually goes into longer term bans. Sometimes to the point where it causes huge rifts between the moderation/admin team too.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

What a load of cr*p. Plenty of people on here get called racist - are you really trying to say it's only me - and it is nearly always from the same small crowd. You are one of the biggest baiters on here - I have even been pm'd and told to watch you and by nobody who was on here today either before you start trying to have a pop at people.

You accuse others - but you are a big part of the problem on here and the ONLY one I have had to put on ignore for more than 5 minutes. So do one.

I've literally never seen anyone else be called a racist? Who? When? More importantly I suppose, why?

Gonna ignore the 'I know you are but what am I' bit. I'm an adult so.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think you've slightly misinterpreted what I was saying but that's ok I've had a wonderful week!

I may well have misread

The rest of the post still stands though. Just pretend I didn't quote you

Its tit for tat nonsense thats the main issue.

Along with some members being a little too sensitive to criticism to be taking part in actual debates. Thats not directed at anyone in particular before that comments taken in the wrong way.

[bots]

rant/

its a debates forum, and if a topic for debate gets posted and it only receives ridicule, no one is better informed, no one actually had a debate, so the poster may well have another attempt but word it differently resulting in a new thread

No one should be expecting total agreement, but debate does mean debate, not ridicule or condescending tones

/rant

[Withano]

Also can I add this whole 'well if you don't like it don't come on the thread then you big dumb idiot' thing doesn't really work with the debates section? That's kinda what a debate is. People who do, and do not like Brillos thread should continue to debate the reasons why, and should be able to call out racism if and when they see it.

If you don't wanna be called a racist, don't say anything that may be interpreted as racism, and maybe avoid the debates forum. Pretty simple?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I've literally never seen anyone else be called a racist? Who? When? More importantly I suppose, why?

Gonna ignore the 'I know you are but what am I' bit. I'm an adult so.

Several on here have complained of it. What see no evil, hear no evil when it suits!

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Several on here have complained of it. What see no evil, hear no evil when it suits!

Any specific example? Orrr. I would like to see for myself why somebody was called a racist, it's a very big accusation which should only come after a few hundred dodgy posts imo.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I've literally never seen anyone else be called a racist? Who? When? More importantly I suppose, why?

Gonna ignore the 'I know you are but what am I' bit. I'm an adult so.

Why not come up with your own catchphrase rather than stealing from others.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Why not come up with your own catchphrase rather than stealing from others.

I wish you knew what was meant by it though. Cos like you keep doing it as if it's a zinger.

[Vicky.]

I did definitely misread you, reading back and the post you quoted.

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well what do you expect when the other side of the coin keeps implying you were stupid or duped to vote for brexit? Saying we are leaving get over is a pretty tame response to being called an idiot IMO.

Tame response, yes. Helpful to debate on the subject, no. Attempt to engage the topic, no. Actually a pretty childish response? Yes. An overall worthy post in this section, no. Something that should probably just be deleted, yes. Something I would hope people can refrain from doing in the future in the hopes of making this section readable and enjoyable again. Yes. (not limited to brexit or either side or whatever. just in general)

Basically.

What I mean by tit for tat rubbish.

[Kizzy]

I wouldn't say there were any examples of true racism they would've been removed anyway, but the bigotry is real.
It's a bitter pill to swallow when that is leveled at you I guess, but when bigoted things are said then throwing a spotlight on them shouldn't be that unexpected on a debate forum surely?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Plenty of those having a go at Brillo making threads never make any themselves

Guess what?

If you make lots of threads you get lots of criticism...

Its easier to criticise than to create

I don't think anyone has a problem with anyone making threads regardless of how many it is.

It's the content of the threads that gets discussed and that is fair play.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Also can I add this whole 'well if you don't like it don't come on the thread then you big dumb idiot' thing doesn't really work with the debates section? That's kinda what a debate is. People who do, and do not like Brillos thread should continue to debate the reasons why, and should be able to call out racism if and when they see it.

If you don't wanna be called a racist, don't say anything that may be interpreted as racism, and maybe avoid the debates forum.

Yes I definitely agree with this too.

I have some pretty strong views on transgender matters at the moment. I am well aware that this topic is emotive and that people hold extremely strong opinions on it. If I make a thread stating my views, I actually kind of expect someone to call me transphobic. If comeone called me it, I am willing to give my opinion on why I think I am not transphobic. I would not take 'transphobic' as an insult. Its par for the course in debates really, especially on matters that inspire such strong responses in people.

I have made some posts fairly recently that have been seen by some as being sexist (against men). These members have called me out on this, and a decent discussion followed. Because when the member pointed out that I was sexist in their view, I did not take this as them insulting me and instead saw an opening to ask why they felt that and to open up discussion further. And actually listen to the responses. As a result, I learnt that yes, my opinions may have came across as sexist to someone coming at the topic from a different side to me.

On the other hand, I do not think I have ever made a post that was racist. If someone accused me of posting something racist, I would answer them and tell them that I thought it was unfair to label me racist, and ask them specifically why they found me racist. And go from there.

I mean, maybe its just me or something, but this whole thing, is kind of the main purpose of a debates forum to me. To challenge your own views on stuff and engage with others, not just steamroller your point regardless?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I did definitely misread you, reading back and the post you quoted.



Tame response, yes. Helpful to debate on the subject, no. Attempt to engage the topic, no. Actually a pretty childish response? Yes. An overall worthy post in this section, no. Something that should probably just be deleted, yes. Something I would hope people can refrain from doing in the future in the hopes of making this section readable and enjoyable again. Yes. (not limited to brexit or either side or whatever. just in general)

Basically.

What I mean by tit for tat rubbish.

I think people are going to respond with a lack of empathy to the other view if they feel they are being attacked is what I was attempting to put across. People aren't peons of perfection. So to speak. In an ideal world we would all respect another view when disagreement. In reality this doesn't happen.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I don't think anyone has a problem with anyone making threads regardless of how many it is.

It's the content of the threads that gets discussed and that is fair play.

Yes and no. If someone is making endless threads on one topic and not actually adding anything then I would say yes, its a bit of a problem.

To use myself as an example on this again. I just stated I have strong views on trans issues. I am actually a little obsessed with this topic at the moment and do read a lot about it, from both sides but still tend to be fairly critical of the ideology overall (not individual people..just as an overall thing)

I could easily just make a thread per week on this topic, giving a different gender critical blog that I had found that day, and not much else as the thread. But...what would that gain? I would fully expect people to be sick to the back teeth of the threads, and no actual debate can be had about something thats quite so done to death.

Again, this may be just me personally, but I much prefer quality over quantity.

So if I wanted to focus a lot of energy into that one particular topic I would make one about the proposed changes to the GRC (that I feel will massively detriment females, homosexual people and transsexuals and only straight men will actually benefit) and flog that one out. Then maybe one asking peoples views on sex segregated spaces and if they are needed. And so on. Each time taking the time to fully add my opinion to the OP, and be willing to defend my position, or even change my views, throughout the topic. Things like this can actually inspire discussion. And if my threads went unanswered..well bully for me. Seems others aren't interested in debating and debating with ones self is pointless. Maybe at this stage I would seek out discussion on that singular topic elsewhere.

I don't think a bunch of trans threads would go down too well on here and I don't want to spam. So I maybe start one every now and again or when theres new news..and besides that I head over to mumsnet where the members there are fully switched on about the issue and discussing it fairly regularly. I don't ever feel I shouldn't start a topic on the issue here. Rather, I don't see the point in just starting a bunch of threads on exactly the same topic as I prefer to debate than just give my view and thats that

Equally I could just scour the papers for different news stories, link just a single link, no opinion or anything and simply put 'discuss' but this would be pointless also to me :S

This may just be personal preference, but to me, this is what a debate topic is about, actually debating and giving your own opinion on stuff. If anyone disagrees with me, please tell me why this is and what they think a debates forum should be for? As this may be part of the disconnect between me and a few members.

[DemolitionRed]

I enjoyed that thread Vicky. It was a good example of how debate topics should work. I think most of us came away from that feeling like we'd had a really worthwhile discussion. I didn't agree with a lot of what you said in that thread but because you came across as thoughtful and reasonable, I respected and even learnt a lot about why have the opinion you do.

[Brother Leon]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Armand and Brother Leon I think as well, we embrace diversity on TiBB, look at Niamh

Yeah. I'm Muslim. I used to call out some of the ignorance on here in terms of that and what Black people supposedly shouldn't be offended by, but nowadays I don't bother tbh.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

Yeah. I'm Muslim. I used to call out some of the ignorance on here in terms of that and what Black people supposedly shouldn't be offended by, but nowadays I don't bother tbh.

Strike me surprised. I would never have guessed!

salam aleykum

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes and no. If someone is making endless threads on one topic and not actually adding anything then I would say yes, its a bit of a problem.

To use myself as an example on this again. I just stated I have strong views on trans issues. I am actually a little obsessed with this topic at the moment and do read a lot about it, from both sides but still tend to be fairly critical of the ideology overall (not individual people..just as an overall thing)

I could easily just make a thread per week on this topic, giving a different gender critical blog that I had found that day, and not much else as the thread. But...what would that gain? I would fully expect people to be sick to the back teeth of the threads, and no actual debate can be had about something thats quite so done to death.

Again, this may be just me personally, but I much prefer quality over quantity.

So if I wanted to focus a lot of energy into that one particular topic I would make one about the proposed changes to the GRC (that I feel will massively detriment females, homosexual people and transsexuals and only straight men will actually benefit) and flog that one out. Then maybe one asking peoples views on sex segregated spaces and if they are needed. And so on. Each time taking the time to fully add my opinion to the OP, and be willing to defend my position, or even change my views, throughout the topic. Things like this can actually inspire discussion. And if my threads went unanswered..well bully for me. Seems others aren't interested in debating and debating with ones self is pointless. Maybe at this stage I would seek out discussion on that singular topic elsewhere.

I don't think a bunch of trans threads would go down too well on here and I don't want to spam. So I maybe start one every now and again or when theres new news..and besides that I head over to mumsnet where the members there are fully switched on about the issue and discussing it fairly regularly. I don't ever feel I shouldn't start a topic on the issue here. Rather, I don't see the point in just starting a bunch of threads on exactly the same topic as I prefer to debate than just give my view and thats that

Equally I could just scour the papers for different news stories, link just a single link, no opinion or anything and simply put 'discuss' but this would be pointless also to me :S

This may just be personal preference, but to me, this is what a debate topic is about, actually debating and giving your own opinion on stuff. If anyone disagrees with me, please tell me why this is and what they think a debates forum should be for? As this may be part of the disconnect between me and a few members.

Let me live.


But yeah, I see what you mean.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Josy

It wasnt sarcasm it was dissapointment tbh yes youve mentioned before that you know nothing of it but there was plenty of info going round the forum and most members noticed the many multis and the sort of stuff that was posted by them so it is kinda hard to believe that you were completely unaware of any of it.

I literally have no idea, I am not on here very much in the evening when it all goes on, and if I am I'm not in the chat threads, I know he did something but then many people are banned and not all have done stuff worthy of involving the police