[PaulyJ]

Originally Posted by angus58

It's what's called democracy, where a group act as one on a consensus of majority opinion. I live in England under a government I loathe and despise who have imposed laws with which I do not agree but have to live by. That is what a society is all about. Come the next election I will exercise my democratic right to vote the b*stards out.

Those that want to rebel against the necessary authority required to perpetuate a stable society, usually want to cherry pick what they want, i.e the freedom to say and do what they want, without the consequences that may attach to that behaviour. If everyone went round doing and saying exactly what they want no matter how their behaviour might offend or impact on others, society would quickly break down and open the door to dictatorship and anarchy. I prefer to live with the lesser of two evils, as the majority of people do, since at least there is some order and structure, and mutual protection and support.

If people want to be themselves and do nothing for others, they're welcome to do it elsewhere and not be hypocrites and leeches by availing themselves of other people's efforts and hard work.

Why do you see a Democracy, surely Dictatorship is more the model that happens year in year out of the BB house

Democracy is established through a clear and transparent voting structure, it's true that Vinnie has been voted leader and given authority by the other Hm's but he has gained the votes by being Tyranical and having other hm's fear his wrath

Of course society would break down without authority to moderate people's behaviour but it is Big Brother who is the authority figure in the house not the Hm with the best skills to put weaker Hm's down and make them feel bad about themselves, which Vinnie does gloriously. Or rather it should not be the person with the best put down skills, but year after year it is that.

If your standing up for Democracy you should be able to see the difference between a compassionate, effective, lawful form of Government ( ok, in my dreams), and Vinnie Jones on a power trip. I say power trip because of his words to Steph at the end of LF words to the effect of, i need people to play with now Sov has gone.

I'm sure Vinnie Jones is a fair bloke to his friends, trouble is i think for Vinnie to be fair to you, you have to be his friend. Fair enough for a normal Hm but do you have to be friends with your boss at work for him to treat you fairly? what about at the Police Station when you report a Burglary. Do you have to invite your local MP around to play video games and partake in some sh*ts and giggles before you can expect fair treatment?

NO that's because they are Authority.




To lead you have to have compassion, and Vinnie does not have that

[robb]

Originally Posted by robb

He's a bible thumper, but last nite he scored a few points with me for not mildly surrendering to Jones, as the others all do.
He has a point about the 'ganging up'......first Sov,then Stephen, next Ivana....then?

I don't get his hatred towards Nicola though.......he was proved wrong in that argument about who said what during the first round of nons.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by PaulyJ

Why do you see a Democracy, surely Dictatorship is more the model that happens year in year out of the BB house

Democracy is established through a clear and transparent voting structure, it's true that Vinnie has been voted leader and given authority by the other Hm's but he has gained the votes by being Tyranical and having other hm's fear his wrath

Of course society would break down without authority to moderate people's behaviour but it is Big Brother who is the authority figure in the house not the Hm with the best skills to put weaker Hm's down and make them feel bad about themselves, which Vinnie does gloriously. Or rather it should not be the person with the best put down skills, but year after year it is that.

If your standing up for Democracy you should be able to see the difference between a compassionate, effective, lawful form of Government ( ok, in my dreams), and Vinnie Jones on a power trip. I say power trip because of his words to Steph at the end of LF words to the effect of, i need people to play with now Sov has gone.

I'm sure Vinnie Jones is a fair bloke to his friends, trouble is i think for Vinnie to be fair to you, you have to be his friend. Fair enough for a normal Hm but do you have to be friends with your boss at work for him to treat you fairly? what about at the Police Station when you report a Burglary. Do you have to invite your local MP around to play video games and partake in some sh*ts and giggles before you can expect fair treatment?

NO that's because they are Authority.




To lead you have to have compassion, and Vinnie does not have that

I have seen no evidence of tyranny on Vinnie's part. He speaks his mind, no messing, and has tried to create some structure in the house to eke out limited resources and share out the tasks fairly.

What you are suggesting is that all the other HMs are terrified of him which is utter nonsense and you know it. I'm watching the same show as you and seen no evidence of hostility towards Vinnie or fear of him from any of the HMs - indeed even Sov the would be rebel said she liked him, so clearly its not a dictatorship, but a democracy where Vinnie has tacitly been elected leader. The reason for this is that the other HMs recognise that cooperation is the way to co-exist in the house, and having tried a more "laissez faire" method (Dane & Nicola in the kitchen) have realised that it doesn't work because selfish people like Sov take advantage.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by angus58

I have seen no evidence of tyranny on Vinnie's part. He speaks his mind, no messing, and has tried to create some structure in the house to eke out limited resources and share out the tasks fairly.

What you are suggesting is that all the other HMs are terrified of him which is utter nonsense and you know it. I'm watching the same show as you and seen no evidence of hostility towards Vinnie or fear of him from any of the HMs - indeed even Sov the would be rebel said she liked him, so clearly its not a dictatorship, but a democracy where Vinnie has tacitly been elected leader. The reason for this is that the other HMs recognise that cooperation is the way to co-exist in the house, and having tried a more "laissez faire" method (Dane & Nicola in the kitchen) have realised that it doesn't work because selfish people like Sov take advantage.

Exactly. No nominations speaks for itself. They respect Vinnie because he speaks his mind AND pulls his weight in the house. They agreed with him about Sov and last night it was obvious they agreed when he had a go at Stephen. He is the Daddy of the house and I think they actually like having that sorted out because it saves any power struggles.

Stephen is just playing the same stupid games he plays on all these reality shows. Attention *****. It's his new career; playing the sneaky preacher on reality shows. He wants to win and spread the gospel at the same time.

[Beastie]

They are ALL playing the game. The one who has played the biggest game will be crowned the winner..

[Stacey.]

Originally Posted by thebeast

They are ALL playing the game. The one who has played the biggest game will be crowned the winner..

that means it would be Vinnie or Nicola..

[PaulyJ]

Originally Posted by angus58

I have seen no evidence of tyranny on Vinnie's part. He speaks his mind, no messing, and has tried to create some structure in the house to eke out limited resources and share out the tasks fairly.

What you are suggesting is that all the other HMs are terrified of him which is utter nonsense and you know it

Can i ask you why do you think Stephanie changed her mind about Ivana doing the Modelling task, do you think Vinnie made Stephanie see sense, that she realised she was wrong, and Vinnie was right, or do you think she was scared to defy Vinnie, as i do.

By fear i mean, a fear of being cast out of the group not a physical fear of harm, more a fear of not being included in conversations, your faults being scrutinised by Vinnie and then by the group, being mocked as Alex was by Vinnie after the Tossed Salad debate.

Democracy:
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

Dictator:
a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

Ok well i will admit the house looks more like a Democracy than a Dictatorship given the definitions, but Vinnie's agenda is not the good of all, he has already said he likes playing with people. I take that as at least part of his agenda for as you put it "create some structure in the house to eke out limited resources and share out the tasks fairly."

On the subject of Tasks do you think it is fair to ask, ney, brow beat a Granny to jump into a skin coloured leotard and pose for the whole world to see. It may of been her turn to do a task but come on Horses for Courses right?

I'd agree the house is less chaotic with him in charge my point is he is abusing his power.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by PaulyJ

Can i ask you why do you think Stephanie changed her mind about Ivana doing the Modelling task, do you think Vinnie made Stephanie see sense, that she realised she was wrong, and Vinnie was right, or do you think she was scared to defy Vinnie, as i do.

By fear i mean, a fear of being cast out of the group not a physical fear of harm, more a fear of not being included in conversations, your faults being scrutinised by Vinnie and then by the group, being mocked as Alex was by Vinnie after the Tossed Salad debate.

Democracy:
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

Dictator:
a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

Ok well i will admit the house looks more like a Democracy than a Dictatorship given the definitions, but Vinnie's agenda is not the good of all, he has already said he likes playing with people. I take that as at least part of his agenda for as you put it "create some structure in the house to eke out limited resources and share out the tasks fairly."

On the subject of Tasks do you think it is fair to ask, ney, brow beat a Granny to jump into a skin coloured leotard and pose for the whole world to see. It may of been her turn to do a task but come on Horses for Courses right?

I'd agree the house is less chaotic with him in charge my point is he is abusing his power.

Ivana is a strong and confident career woman who probably eats tougher guys than Vinnie for breakfast. She hasn't achieved so much in life by being a wimp. I don't think she'd thank you for referring to her simply as a "granny"!.

As for Stephanie demurring to Vinnie's view point, again she has been around the block a few times, and is old enough to be his mother. She seems to respect his views and genuinely like him, and she certainly ain't no shrinking violet. I can't see anyone pushing her around either.

I recall during Corned Beef Gate Vinnie merely stepped back from the situation and let the other HMs find out for themselves what he'd been telling them all along about the food situation.

Vinnie is assertive and has strong opinions but I have still seen no evidence whatsoever of him actually IMPOSING his views on others.