[stonedape]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

Exactly. If he said he wouldn't marry black people that would make him racist. Religious beliefs are not an excuse for discrimination...

this. When the paradigm fully shifts that's exactly how people will think of opinions like Dave's.

to Livia - there are countless churches, Catholics and Protestants, that do support marrying homosexuals. How can a religious majority enforce their interpretation on a religious minority? And don't even start with "but it's in the Bible!" There are more discarded moral codes in the Bible than followed ones.

At best, he lacks critical thinking skills. At worst, he's an arse.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by doughnut8

The guy is a dinosaur spreading this horrible hate about people who do not fit this ridiculous christian centric view of the world. We need to send his guy and his ugly views a message.

It isn't just Dave. Do you actually read any of this stuff? THE WHOLE CHURCH is united in not marrying gays. And not just Christians. And they can't "marry" in a register office, they can only have a civil partnership.

Dave is tolerant of all people I think. I've never once heard him discriminate or judge someone. But you know what, I'm wasting my time, aren't I. Ignorance is bliss when it suits your crusade.

[suzq]

Dave is a PR**K

[Livia]

Originally Posted by stonedape

this. When the paradigm fully shifts that's exactly how people will think of opinions like Dave's.

to Livia - there are countless churches, Catholics and Protestants, that do support marrying homosexuals. How can a religious majority enforce their interpretation on a religious minority? And don't even start with "but it's in the Bible!" There are more discarded moral codes in the Bible than followed ones.

At best, he lacks critical thinking skills. At worst, he's an arse.

There are NO churches that marry gay people None. Not one. I am not a Christian. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm telling what the law of the land says. Even if the church decided to marry gay couples, it would have to be passed by the House of Lords before it became legal. Dave does not have a say.

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by Livia

There are NO churches that marry gay people None. Not one. I am not a Christian. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm telling what the law of the land says. Even if the church decided to marry gay couples, it would have to be passed by the House of Lords before it became legal. Dave does not have a say.

But Dave isn't even a "proper" minister is he?? He just started up his own silly religious sect where they pretend they are pissed on Gods love & wheel themselves around in wheelchairs in town centres offering to cure cancer...

IF he can legally perform weddings then he is also legally permitted to perform civil partnership ceremonys... So he CAN, he just WONT... that is discrimination...

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

why do you always blame josie for what another housemate does?

Because she did stir it up! Why do you refuse to hold her responsible for her own actions?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

But Dave isn't even a "proper" minister is he?? He just started up his own silly religious sect where they pretend they are pissed on Gods love & wheel themselves around in wheelchairs in town centres offering to cure cancer...

IF he can legally perform weddings then he is also legally permitted to perform civil partnership ceremonys... So he CAN, he just WONT... that is discrimination...

A civil partnership is performed by a registrar. It is not a religious ceremony of any kind, it is purely secular. It is not discrimination, it is not legal.

I am not supporting Dave's ministry, nor his cancer cure claims. But this whole "not marrying gays is like not marrying black people" is a ludicrous argument!

[stonedape]

Originally Posted by Livia

There are NO churches that marry gay people None. Not one. I am not a Christian. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm telling what the law of the land says. Even if the church decided to marry gay couples, it would have to be passed by the House of Lords before it became legal. Dave does not have a say.

You're aware churches exist outside of the UK, right?

The same book was used to justify not marrying whites and blacks, with just as little real argument as Dave: "It's in the Bible!" "It's just not natural!" so I'd say the argument is sound.

[Fuzzylogic]

Originally Posted by doughnut8

The guy is a dinosaur spreading this horrible hate about people who do not fit this ridiculous christian centric view of the world. We need to send his guy and his ugly views a message.

You are either an idiot or a troll, which is it?

There is a difference between hims aying he won;t marry gays and being a "gay hater."

If he hated gays and gayness he wouldn;t be friends with Mario, and be so huggy with other men.

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by Livia

A civil partnership is performed by a registrar. It is not a religious ceremony of any kind, it is purely secular. It is not discrimination, it is not legal.

I am not supporting Dave's ministry, nor his cancer cure claims. But this whole "not marrying gays is like not marrying black people" is a ludicrous argument!

A civil partnership isn't legal??

It isn't a ludicrous argument at all! If Dave is a qualified registrar (which is about all he could be as he has basically made up his own religion & "church") then he would be able to perfom a civil partnership, he said he wont, so that is discrimination... Just the same as if he said he wouldn't marry a couple for the colour of their skin... Many people use the term "marry" for gay couples, even if technically it is a "civil partnership" it gives couples the exact same rights & is different only in name...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by stonedape

You're aware churches exist outside of the UK, right?

You are aware we're talking about a man who's "ministry" is in the UK, right? If he was a minister in, say, the Netherlands, we wouldn't need to be having this conversation because gay marriage is legal there and whether or not he agreed to marry gay couples would be up to him. At the moment, the decision is out of his hands. One day it might be different, but right now, that's the way it is.

Don't get the impression I'm a follower, or a supporter. I am a Jew. I am not a Christian. I'm talking only about the legality of what he's saying in the face of some pretty unfair criticism.

Ask me if he can cure cancer and I will tell you, no.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Because she did stir it up! Why do you refuse to hold her responsible for her own actions?

because she only asked him a question so why would you blame her for that?

and watch out josie if you breathe wombai and your other haters will attack you.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

A civil partnership isn't legal??

It isn't a ludicrous argument at all! If Dave is a qualified registrar (which is about all he could be as he has basically made up his own religion & "church") then he would be able to perfom a civil partnership, he said he wont, so that is discrimination... Just the same as if he said he wouldn't marry a couple for the colour of their skin... Many people use the term "marry" for gay couples, even if technically it is a "civil partnership" it gives couples the exact same rights & is different only in name...

Dave is NOT a registrar he is a minister. A civil partnership is a secular ceremony, which means is it non-religious.

Because people call it a marriage, it does not make it one. It offers the same rights as a married couple but is is not a "marriage" in the eyes of the law.

I've explained it as simply as I can. Unless you're being deliberately obtuse, you have to see what I'm saying, surely. I do not necessarily support it, but it is the law nevertheless.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Livia

You are aware we're talking about a man who's "ministry" is in the UK, right? If he was a minister in, say, the Netherlands, we wouldn't need to be having this conversation because gay marriage is legal there and whether or not he agreed to marry gay couples would be up to him. At the moment, the decision is out of his hands. One day it might be different, but right now, that's the way it is.

Don't get the impression I'm a follower, or a supporter. I am a Jew. I am not a Christian. I'm talking only about the legality of what he's saying in the face of some pretty unfair criticism.

Ask me if he can cure cancer and I will tell you, no.

mario would love the netherlands and you know why? being a prostachute is legal over there lol.

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by Livia

Dave is NOT a registrar he is a minister. A civil partnership is a secular ceremony, which means is it non-religious.

Because people call it a marriage, it does not make it one. It offers the same rights as a married couple but is is not a "marriage" in the eyes of the law.

I've explained it as simply as I can. Unless you're being deliberately obtuse, you have to see what I'm saying, surely. I do not necessarily support it, but it is the law nevertheless.

But what I am trying to explain is that Dave is NOT a proper minister, he does not have a church & he CANNOT perform weddings anyway.. IF he was able to perfom ANY cermony he would have to have a license to be able to do it. He is not affiliated to any part of the C.O.E... So if he was to perfom any cermonys he could also perfom a civil partnership if he so wished, he said he wouldn't, so therefore he is discriminating against homosexuals...

Forget the religious legalities as Dave isn't following any recognised religion anyway... He is simply an ex junkie who pretends to be pissed on reading a book...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

mario would love the netherlands and you know why? being a prostachute is legal over there lol.

Prostachute. Is that where you call a prostitute and they parachute in? :-)

[stonedape]

Originally Posted by Livia

You are aware we're talking about a man who's "ministry" is in the UK, right? If he was a minister in, say, the Netherlands, we wouldn't need to be having this conversation because gay marriage is legal there and whether or not he agreed to marry gay couples would be up to him. At the moment, the decision is out of his hands. One day it might be different, but right now, that's the way it is.

Don't get the impression I'm a follower, or a supporter. I am a Jew. I am not a Christian. I'm talking only about the legality of what he's saying in the face of some pretty unfair criticism.

Ask me if he can cure cancer and I will tell you, no.

You were the one with the hubris to claim NO CHURCHES. NONE. marry gays. Don't start getting specific now. Legality was never the issue, the issue is Dave's stance which regardless of legality could be for or against gay marriage. It's against. And if you'd ever read the Bible in full, you'd realize how ridiculous the stance is. There's almost nothing in the book about it, just like there's almost nothing about interracial marriage.

Again, it's either a lack of critical thinking about his own religion, or he's just a total ass. I'd say definitely the former, because he actually has a really tolerant attitude. I just don't think he's thinking about what he believes.

[Fuzzylogic]

Originally Posted by Livia

Prostachute. Is that where you call a prostitute and they parachute in? :-)

LOL

[Livia]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

But what I am trying to explain is that Dave is NOT a proper minister, he does not have a church & he CANNOT perform weddings anyway.. IF he was able to perfom ANY cermony he would have to have a license to be able to do it. He is not affiliated to any part of the C.O.E... So if he was to perfom any cermonys he could also perfom a civil partnership if he so wished, he said he wouldn't, so therefore he is discriminating against homosexuals...

Forget the religious legalities as Dave isn't following any recognised religion anyway... He is simply an ex junkie who pretends to be pissed on reading a book...

I understand what you're saying, and to an extent I agree with you. I don't know if he can perform weddings. Possibly he can... but not a gay one.

If a gay couple have strong religious convictions, they may be able to find a sympathetic minister who could bless their union, but they would not marry them in a religious ceremony.

No religion started out as a recognised religion. Christianity is only 2000 years old... Judaism is 5000 years old, so by comparison, all Christians are newbies compared to Jews!

Anyhoo... it's been interesting. Think we've probably flogged it to death now though!

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by stonedape

You're aware churches exist outside of the UK, right?

The same book was used to justify not marrying whites and blacks, with just as little real argument as Dave: "It's in the Bible!" "It's just not natural!" so I'd say the argument is sound.

In fact, rarely has there ever been any laws anywhere forbidding what is called 'interracial' marriage.
You can find a handful of examples (south africa, nazi germany, some US states).
If a handful of kooks did attempt to justify these using the Bible they were quiet obviously failures as the Christian Abolitionists (in the US case) used the Bible to conquer them with massive public support (most Christians).

One thing you can try and do is visit some community in Harlem New York and announce that black men are the same as gays.
Also mouth off about the Bible.
See how long you can remain an 'atheist' as you are being beaten to death within maybe.. maybe you will have 10 minutes of slow death before finally being eliminated.

I'm not recommending it but its something you could try and do?
If you believe 'blacks' are the same thing as gays in that sense.

Just so you know (you can google this) but gay marriage is NOT VERY POPULAR in the black communities.
Not at all.
In fact you can find plenty of USA blacks on youtube VERY OFFENDED by your idea that their civil rights are the 'same thing' as Gay Agenda goals.

Just so ya know.

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

In fact, rarely has there ever been any laws anywhere forbidding what is called 'interracial' marriage.
You can find a handful of examples (south africa, nazi germany, some US states).
If a handful of kooks did attempt to justify these using the Bible they were quiet obviously failures as the Christian Abolitionists (in the US case) used the Bible to conquer them with massive public support (most Christians).

One thing you can try and do is visit some community in Harlem New York and announce that black men are the same as gays.
Also mouth off about the Bible.
See how long you can remain an 'atheist' as you are being beaten to death within maybe.. maybe you will have 10 minutes of slow death before finally being eliminated.

I'm not recommending it but its something you could try and do?
If you believe 'blacks' are the same thing as gays in that sense.

Just so you know (you can google this) but gay marriage is NOT VERY POPULAR in the black communities.
Not at all.
In fact you can find plenty of USA blacks on youtube VERY OFFENDED by your idea that their civil rights are the 'same thing' as Gay Agenda goals.

Just so ya know.

I see you are back to spouting nonsical drivel again

You are aware that there are gay black men are you??

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Prostachute. Is that where you call a prostitute and they parachute in? :-)

Brilliant.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Livia

Prostachute. Is that where you call a prostitute and they parachute in? :-)

yes im saying he has sex for money.

[paper-cut-exit]

Originally Posted by jedward fever

yes im saying he has sex for money.

lol

[Livia]

Originally Posted by stonedape

You were the one with the hubris to claim NO CHURCHES. NONE. marry gays. Don't start getting specific now. Legality was never the issue, the issue is Dave's stance which regardless of legality could be for or against gay marriage. It's against. And if you'd ever read the Bible in full, you'd realize how ridiculous the stance is. There's almost nothing in the book about it, just like there's almost nothing about interracial marriage.

Again, it's either a lack of critical thinking about his own religion, or he's just a total ass. I'd say definitely the former, because he actually has a really tolerant attitude. I just don't think he's thinking about what he believes.

I was talking about churches in the UK. Which is where Dave is. I think you know that. Legality was ALWAYS the issue for me. I've never heard Dave say that even if it were legal, he still would not marry a gay couple.

And actually, I have read the bible In full. And of course I agree that the stance is outdated. As I said earlier, Leviticus clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination in the face of God. But it also says in Leviticus, that you may own slaves, that you can sell your children into slavery and stone people to death for wearing a mixture of cloths! I am not arguing about the stance being outdated, I am saying that gay marriage is not allowed under the law in this country and that not even Dave is responsible for that. If you feel that strongly, put your energy into lobbying your MP and try to get the law changed.