[user104658]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Odd isn't it? I mean its odd that so many working class people vote for the Tories. I've spoken to many working class Brits who voted Tory and will continue to vote Tory. The irony is, these are the same men and women who barely make a living wage.

So whilst our present government continues to dismantle the welfare state, the very thing that was set up to provide a decent life for working class people; those living on sink estates and who can't get jobs because there are no jobs to be had or work and survive on minimum a wage continue to vote for the Oxbridge, Old Etonian filthy rich.

I believe that the Tories appeal to peoples aspirations? The new working class are no longer the hard working people who pull themselves up by their bootstraps, they are the benefit scroungers, the chavs and the immigrants.

Correct; the Tories have successfully tapped "working class pride". They have managed to convince people that if they have a job (any job) and work hard for a living then they are Tories and will be best off sticking with Tories. That Labour represents immigrants and benefits scroungers and that if you don't agree with the Tories, then you must agree with "shirking and skiving".

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Correct; the Tories have successfully tapped "working class pride". They have managed to convince people that if they have a job (any job) and work hard for a living then they are Tories and will be best off sticking with Tories. That Labour represents immigrants and benefits scroungers and that if you don't agree with the Tories, then you must agree with "shirking and skiving".

In fairness though the Tories have been quite clever in their rhetoric and Labour did nothing to dispel the myth, hopefully they learned a lesson

[DemolitionRed]

A very good book called 'The Ragged Trousers Philanthropies' by Robert Tressel

The philanthropies are the workers who throw themselves into back-breaking work for poverty wages in order to generate profit for their masters.

Although it was written back in 1910 its frighteningly reminiscent of the Tory government versus the Tory voters in today's Britain.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

A very good book called 'The Ragged Trousers Philanthropies' by Robert Tressel

The philanthropies are the workers who throw themselves into back-breaking work for poverty wages in order to generate profit for their masters.

Although it was written back in 1910 its frighteningly reminiscent of the Tory government versus the Tory voters in today's Britain.

Excellent book, anyone who reads it would run out and join a union I guarantee it

[Kizzy]

True DR the tory way is to pitch neighbour against neighbour, the haves and the have nots. Except this time they throw a curveball and attack those who considered themselves as a conservative 'have,' families who get by both working and on tax credits?
Now they've found they are the new 'scroungers' it doesn't seem so fair.

[joeysteele]

This is a disgrace and I sounded off on this before.

This is one the most vile acts of this govt because they are losing appeal after appeal when things end up at HMCT.
However, people who wrongly lose benefits or are refused them should still go to appeal.

It is a disgrace to withhold justice and decency from people as to law just to save money.
There are firms who will take on your appeal, I have been with one who has done so, I have yet to see an appeal lost once it comes before a recorder/judge or any other overseer of such appeals.

A rotten policy from a rotten govt which should not have any place whatsoever in any decent society as to dealing with the most vulnerable and sick and disabled.
I have seen people wheeled into these appeals with only months to live due to cancer, due to heartless paper decisions by the DWP, as directed by the secretary of State too.

I have seen judges shake their heads in total dismay at what they have seen and heard as to many cases.

Justice should be denied to no one as to cost, and if the costs of these appeals are proving heavy for this vile govt, which they most certainly are hence this action on the paying for appeals, then clearly the decisions originally made by the DWP are massively at fault, if someone then comes out of court winning such appeals.

Stop the victimisation ,demonisation and persecution of the sick and disabled and most vulnerable then the costs of same will go down probably considerably anyway.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is a disgrace and I sounded off on this before.

This is one the most vile acts of this govt because they are losing appeal after appeal when things end up at HMCT.
However, people who wrongly lose benefits or are refused them should still go to appeal.

It is a disgrace to withhold justice and decency from people as to law just to save money.
There are firms who will take on your appeal, I have been with one who has done so, I have yet to see an appeal lost once it comes before a recorder/judge or any other overseer of such appeals.

A rotten policy from a rotten govt which should not have any place whatsoever in any decent society as to dealing with the most vulnerable and sick and disabled.
I have seen people wheeled into these appeals with only months to live due to cancer, due to heartless paper decisions by the DWP, as directed by the secretary of State too.

I have seen judges shake their heads in total dismay at what they have seen and heard as to many cases.

Justice should be denied to no one as to cost, and if the costs of these appeals are proving heavy for this vile govt, which they most certainly are hence this action on the paying for appeals, then clearly the decisions originally made by the DWP are massively at fault, if someone then comes out of court winning such appeals.

Stop the victimisation ,demonisation and persecution of the sick and disabled and most vulnerable then the costs of same will go down probably considerably anyway.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is a disgrace and I sounded off on this before.

This is one the most vile acts of this govt because they are losing appeal after appeal when things end up at HMCT.
However, people who wrongly lose benefits or are refused them should still go to appeal.

It is a disgrace to withhold justice and decency from people as to law just to save money.
There are firms who will take on your appeal, I have been with one who has done so, I have yet to see an appeal lost once it comes before a recorder/judge or any other overseer of such appeals.

A rotten policy from a rotten govt which should not have any place whatsoever in any decent society as to dealing with the most vulnerable and sick and disabled.
I have seen people wheeled into these appeals with only months to live due to cancer, due to heartless paper decisions by the DWP, as directed by the secretary of State too.

I have seen judges shake their heads in total dismay at what they have seen and heard as to many cases.

Justice should be denied to no one as to cost, and if the costs of these appeals are proving heavy for this vile govt, which they most certainly are hence this action on the paying for appeals, then clearly the decisions originally made by the DWP are massively at fault, if someone then comes out of court winning such appeals.

Stop the victimisation ,demonisation and persecution of the sick and disabled and most vulnerable then the costs of same will go down probably considerably anyway.

56% of DLA, 58% of ESA and 57% of PIP cases are overturned at appeal according to government records for the first quarter of 2015. The numbers have been rising fairly dramatically over a number of years. Back in 2010 only 20% of these cases were won on appeal.

Now of course, it doesn't benefit the government when an appeal is overturned because the claimant doesn't only continue getting paid but are back paid the money they were owed. The government presently offsets this with the 44%, 42%, and 43% of cases that don't get overturned along with all the cases that never get to appeal. DWP are extremely foggy about percentages when it comes to people who don't appeal.

Its interesting that in 2012-2013 the DWP introduced something called 'Mandatory reconsideration before appeal'. This was supposed to speed things up and allow the DWP to overturn their decisions without it going to tribunal. It also meant that only the more crooked cases and hardest to judge cases would end up at a tribunal. This clearly doesn't work when you judge the amount of people who are winning their appeals

[Livia]

What a ridiculous proposal.

My advice would be, if you feel you have a real grievance, take your problem to your MP and get him/her to sort it. They have excellent case workers to deal with problems like this and whether or not you voted for them, they work for you.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

What a ridiculous proposal.

My advice would be, if you feel you have a real grievance, take your problem to your MP and get him/her to sort it. They have excellent case workers to deal with problems like this and whether or not you voted for them, they work for you.

Sadly I have found some don't, you are right in that some of the best help to people who lose benefits wrongly, do get a sympathetic ear from MPs, a great number too of Conservative MPs as well as others, however it is Conservative MPs who will inflict this with their votes on the most vulnerable.
Not daring to vote against the whip of their party.

I have been a small part of a team who have had to, in the end, involve Consultants, Doctors, Carers and even Social workers to fight in court against some of the most heartless and cruellest decisions made against the sick and disabled.

For me, even just one such instance is too many, there are in fact masses more than just one.
This is a disgraceful idea to have ever been thought about let alone do.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Sadly I have found some don't, you are right in that some of the best help to people who lose benefits wrongly, do get a sympathetic ear from MPs, a great number too of Conservative MPs as well as others, however it is Conservative MPs who will inflict this with their votes on the most vulnerable.
Not daring to vote against the whip of their party.

I have been a small part of a team who have had to, in the end, involve Consultants, Doctors, Carers and even Social workers to fight in court against some of the most heartless and cruellest decisions made against the sick and disabled.

For me, even just one such instance is too many, there are in fact masses more than just one.
This is a disgraceful idea to have ever been thought about let alone do.

My own local MP does not worry about going against the whips. He has said quite clearly that his decisions reflect the thoughts of his constituents.

The Conservative Party have one very clear image on this forum. There are no discussions on this thread anymore, only lots of anti-Tories all agreeing with each other and howling down and ridiculing any kind of debate.

Not all politicians are the same, whichever party they represent. All parties make decisions that are not palatable to some... I happen to think this particular issue is deplorable. But like I say, there is very little debate left here. It's black or white, and you are one or the other, there are no shades of grey.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

My own local MP does not worry about going against the whips. He has said quite clearly that his decisions reflect the thoughts of his constituents.

The Conservative Party have one very clear image on this forum. There are no discussions on this thread anymore, only lots of anti-Tories all agreeing with each other and howling down and ridiculing any kind of debate.

Not all politicians are the same, whichever party they represent. All parties make decisions that are not palatable to some... I happen to think this particular issue is deplorable. But like I say, there is very little debate left here. It's black or white, and you are one or the other, there are no shades of grey.

Again with the indirect albeit indirect 'lefty' references, just to clarify personally I haven't howled I made a comment on the thread, based on my view and not as a collective.

[Northern Monkey]

The very worrying thing about this is that.....If the Tories could actually get away with this they would actually implement it.It just shows how heartless they are and how they are trying to remove as many rights and as much power from the average person as they possibly can.
They are trying to make us helpless.
I mean how the **** can somebody on benefits who gets them taken away pay for anything?
It's mental.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

The very worrying thing about this is that.....If the Tories could actually get away with this they would actually implement it.It just shows how heartless they are and how they are trying to remove as many rights and as much power from the average person as they possibly can.
They are trying to make us helpless.
I mean how the **** can somebody on benefits who gets them taken away pay for anything?
It's mental.

The same goes for legal aid. The only people who need legal aid are the working poor or unemployed poor but the chances are they will no longer get it.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The same goes for legal aid. The only people who need legal aid are the working poor or unemployed poor but the chances are they will no longer get it.

Very worrying!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

The very worrying thing about this is that.....If the Tories could actually get away with this they would actually implement it.It just shows how heartless they are and how they are trying to remove as many rights and as much power from the average person as they possibly can.
They are trying to make us helpless.
I mean how the **** can somebody on benefits who gets them taken away pay for anything?
It's mental.

Heartless is the word and it really mystifies how this cannot be against a citizens human rights to be denied access to justice on cost,by a govt policy such as this one.

It is to me a total and unacceptable disgrace that warrants the fullest condemnation from all, as to any govt that would even think of it, let alone plan doing it.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Heartless is the word and it really mystifies how this cannot be against a citizens human rights to be denied access to justice on cost,by a govt policy such as this one.

It is to me a total and unacceptable disgrace that warrants the fullest condemnation from all, as to any govt that would even think of it, let alone plan doing it.

Yes.It's quite sinister.If they can even think of this as acceptable then it makes you wonder what their true longer term plan is for the future?To leave everyone helpless and powerless at the mercy of the state?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yes.It's quite sinister.If they can even think of this as acceptable then it makes you wonder what their true longer term plan is for the future?To leave everyone helpless and powerless at the mercy of the state?

I agree, I don't usually go in for sensationalist commenting but since this govt is 'wrongly and cruelly' moving the goalposts as to the qualifying criteria for sick and disabled benefits, thereby creating the scenario that people who should not be working are forced to.
Following up with the removal, cutting or denying of benefits and then removing the financial prop of legal aid to help them fight such heartless decisions on appeal.

That to me is an almighty abuse of power and should be a crime against the weaker most vulnerable sections of citizens in the UK.

As for so called caring Conservative MPs on this one, they should show they care and stop their govt doing such rotten heartless acts, if they really do care, and not vote for same in Parliament.
It is odd, very odd to me that they do however troop through the lobbies to support such policy in Parliamentary votes, which for me says all I need to know about them and their party's, under this PM, real agenda too.

[empire]

the fact that the tory party is no longer a right wing rich mans party, now they are a liberal rich mans greedy party, both tory and labour are very weak now, in their political thinking, with the rise in nationalism in britain could see the working man and the poor voting for nationalist parties, who will put the british working person first, the turn out for working class to vote, is very low now, and who can blame them.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by empire

the fact that the tory party is no longer a right wing rich mans party, now they are a liberal rich mans greedy party, both tory and labour are very weak now, in their political thinking, with the rise in nationalism in britain could see the working man and the poor voting for nationalist parties, who will put the british working person first, the turn out for working class to vote, is very low now, and who can blame them.

Recent policy proposals suggest otherwise..

eg.

overturning fox hunting ban
scrapping human rights act
some have advocated death penalty
michael gove has advocated 'random drug testings' on prisoners

very scary.

[user104658]

Tories (and again, before anyone says, this includes Blairite Labour Tories) want an elite ruling class and a subservient population to keep things ticking over for them.

That makes none of this surprising. Broken cogs are useless cogs.

[DemolitionRed]

Good post Joey, All these ministers are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Unfortunately its the general public who vote these people in. The majority of voters don't have a clue what's going on within government and even if they do, they still remain leery of innovation and change. Of course there are voters who don't want change, my extended family think the conservatives are wonderful, but then they've done rather well by them.

People born before the mid 60s had guaranteed employment and bought affordable homes. In the 60s my parents bought their first terraced house in West London for 19k. Back then, property was seen as a necessity more than an investment and priced accordingly.

That same little house is now worth around 500k. Most modern day couples of a similar age (to what my parents where) couldn't afford a mortgage for half a million, even if they both have fairly decent professions. Most young couples can't afford a bedsit, especially in West London.

If anyone stops this capitalist nonsense, it will be those born in the 70s, 80s and 90s. In a very recent university study, 78% of its students said they 'very excited' by many of Corbyn's policies.

[empire]

new labour sold out the working class vote, for zero jobs, and a younger generation stuck on the dole, and their is a price their with it, because they have lost their grass root support in the working class heartland, and what where the blairite elite trying to do was, dismantle the working class, and they knew what they where doing, and with there lies of spin and deceit, you have the tories that are using the poor and the under paid to suffer for it, you have two parties that have been a pain in are backsides for the last few decades.