[lostalex]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

9/11 brought about US/NATO war in Iraq. We didn't go into Iraq to build hospitals and roads, we went in to obliterate it. The spoils of war nearly always includes deals to rebuild. Afghanistan wasn't re-built out of our generosity; it was done to boost a western economy and take back some of the money used during its long war campaign.

That's total bull**** dude. we defeated the Iraqi army and toppled the government after just 3 weeks. we stayed there for 10 years because we tried to help them rebuild. Invading Iraq wasn't the mistake, staying and trying to help was the mistake.

If it were up to me we(the US) would have left after that first month after we defeated Iraq.

We won the war in just 1 month. why did we stay??

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by lostalex

That's total bull**** dude. we defeated the Iraqi army and toppled the government after just 3 weeks. we stayed there for 10 years because we tried to help them rebuild. Invading Iraq wasn't the mistake, staying and trying to help was the mistake.

If it were up to me we(the US) would have left after that first month after we defeated Iraq.

We won the war in just 1 month. why did we stay??

Sorry, I meant to say Afghanistan (9/11) not Iraq.

We stayed 10 years in Iraq because like with all occupations after war, we wanted to ensure our version of leadership was properly installed. As for the money that was made from the re-build, it was massive. America got something like 85% of the contracts for re-building which boosted their employment levels and ensured tax revenue came directly back into Americas purse.

Its a procedure that was set out during the closure of the second world war. As the Americans, Russians and British closed in on the Germans, they paused the attack so they could work out and divide the spoils of war.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Sorry, I meant to say Afghanistan (9/11) not Iraq.

We stayed 10 years in Iraq because like with all occupations after war, we wanted to ensure our version of leadership was properly installed. As for the money that was made from the re-build, it was massive. America got something like 85% of the contracts for re-building which boosted their employment levels and ensured tax revenue came directly back into Americas purse.

Its a procedure that was set out during the closure of the second world war. As the Americans, Russians and British closed in on the Germans, they paused the attack so they could work out and divide the spoils of war.

yea, and it basically got split down the middle, and the american side of things did a pretty good job of letting it's "spoils of war" be free democracies that flourished.. while the russian "spoils" of war countries got controlled and basically lived under the same oppression they would have under the nazis. actually they were probably even worse off under the russians than they would have been under the nazis.

[lostalex]

i feel like christians are told all the time that the religion isn't real, and most christians i know have no problem saying they don't believe in all of the bible, and they even openly question god and the bible. but they still consider themselves christians, and they can just enjoy the traditions of the religion without feeling like they have to follow every word. i don't feel like muslims get as much real criticism, because it's politically incorrect to challenge muslim views, and society is even scared to challenge it directly because they are scared of terrorism, like the mohammed cartoons..

I'm not saying we should ban the religion, i'm just saying we need more open criticism of the religion just like christianity is so openly criticized.

[Denver]

I'm disgusted by all the hate for Muslims in this thread thinking all Muslims should die.

Terrorist do not follow the Quran and kill just as many of there own as they do the west and when people stop tarnishing all Muslims with the same brush then we can all get rid of these extremists.

The west proclaim to accept everyone all I see is the exact opposite.

[waterhog]

Originally Posted by Adam.

I'm disgusted by all the hate for Muslims in this thread thinking all Muslims should die.

Terrorist do not follow the Quran and kill just as many of there own as they do the west and when people stop tarnishing all Muslims with the same brush then we can all get rid of these extremists.

The west proclaim to accept everyone all I see is the exact opposite.

adam just like to correct you - Muslims do not kill - it is against Islam so to call a terrorist a Muslim is wrong.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by waterhog

adam just like to correct you - Muslims do not kill - it is against Islam so to call a terrorist a Muslim is wrong.

Yes I agree they just claim to support it yet go totally against it

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by waterhog

adam just like to correct you - Muslims do not kill - it is against Islam so to call a terrorist a Muslim is wrong.

that's like saying a husband promises to be loyal to his wife on his wedding day, therefore any man that cheats on his wife is not a husband, even though he is married...

it makes no sense.

[arista]

Alex is thinking back to 9/11

[Livia]

Close the borders as a short term measure until we can rally ourselves. Then work with the UN on bringing in our quota of GENUINE refugees from Syria, families first... young men, who make up the vast majority of migrants , entering without going via the UN, way waaaaay down the line.

Arrest and/or deport all known terrorists and sympathisers immediately. Today.

Include the Muslim community in what's going on, make it clear that we do not hold them responsible for people who are making a mockery of their faith and killing their brothers and sisters.

Give the security services the powers they need to keep us safe.

Stop all cuts on the military and the emergency services and increase their budget.

Reintroduce the death penalty for convicted terrorists.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

Close the borders as a short term measure until we can rally ourselves. Then work with the UN on bringing in our quota of GENUINE refugees from Syria, families first... young men, who make up the vast majority of migrants , entering without going via the UN, way waaaaay down the line.

Arrest and/or deport all known terrorists and sympathisers immediately. Today.

Include the Muslim community in what's going on, make it clear that we do not hold them responsible for people who are making a mockery of their faith and killing their brothers and sisters.

Give the security services the powers they need to keep us safe.

Stop all cuts on the military and the emergency services and increase their budget.

Reintroduce the death penalty for convicted terrorists.

Best reply so far imo
selling weapons to insane people is also an issue that is being ignored yet again

TODAY IT WAS CONFIRMED SOME OF THESE PARIS BOMBERS HAD FAKE PASSPORTS MADE IN SYRIA AND FOUND AT THE SCENE OF THE MASS MURDERS. PASSPORT CONTROL IN FRANCE ADMIT THAT WITH OPEN BORDERS AND MASS REFUGEE ARRIVALS. THAT THEY SIMPLY CANOT CHECK ALL PASSPORTS

in Short here, Farage was 100% right and all the left wing pro EU liberals were 100% wrong....open borders are an absolute disaster and imo its the left who have used them wrongly to call the right racists for being against open borders.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

Best reply so far imo
selling weapons to insane people is also an issue that is being ignored yet again

TODAY IT WAS CONFIRMED SOME OF THESE PARIS BOMBERS HAD FAKE PASSPORTS MADE IN SYRIA AND FOUND AT THE SCENE OF THE MASS MURDERS. PASSPORT CONTROL IN FRANCE ADMIT THAT WITH OPEN BORDERS AND MASS REFUGEE ARRIVALS. THAT THEY SIMPLY CANOT CHECK ALL PASSPORTS

in Short here, Farage was 100% right and all the left wing pro EU liberals were 100% wrong....open borders are an absolute disaster and imo its the left who have used them wrongly to call the right racists for being against open borders.

Hmmm...

'Some British Muslims are “conflicted in their loyalties” between the UK way of life and what some elements within their faith are telling them, Nigel Farage has said in a speech.

In an incendiary intervention in the wake of the Paris terror attacks, the Ukip leader said there must be a battle for hearts and minds within the Muslim population.

Farage said there was “a problem with some of the Muslim community in this country” and that research suggested that British Muslims experienced a “tremendous conflict and a split of loyalties”.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ting-loyalties

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by the truth

Best reply so far imo
selling weapons to insane people is also an issue that is being ignored yet again

TODAY IT WAS CONFIRMED SOME OF THESE PARIS BOMBERS HAD FAKE PASSPORTS MADE IN SYRIA AND FOUND AT THE SCENE OF THE MASS MURDERS. PASSPORT CONTROL IN FRANCE ADMIT THAT WITH OPEN BORDERS AND MASS REFUGEE ARRIVALS. THAT THEY SIMPLY CANOT CHECK ALL PASSPORTS

in Short here, Farage was 100% right and all the left wing pro EU liberals were 100% wrong....open borders are an absolute disaster and imo its the left who have used them wrongly to call the right racists for being against open borders.

[DemolitionRed]

I would stop holding Washington's hand every time it decided to invade somewhere in the Middle East. There have been many wars we want no part of because there's little gain in getting involved but when it comes to oil/uranium rich deserts, we always want to join in with getting our hands dirty.

If terrorism from the Middle East is going to stop, we have to put an end to invading their lands because its our invasions that are the very bedrock of everything we are seeing unfold today in the West.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I would stop holding Washington's hand every time it decided to invade somewhere in the Middle East. There have been many wars we want no part of because there's little gain in getting involved but when it comes to oil/uranium rich deserts, we always want to join in with getting our hands dirty.

If terrorism from the Middle East is going to stop, we have to put an end to invading their lands because its our invasions that are the very bedrock of everything we are seeing unfold today in the West.

Claiming we're holding Washington's hand is a little disingenuous, we are allies... and we're not alone. Do you know how many countries are involved in the Syrian conflict? We are not alone with the USA, many other countries are involved including Islamic countries like Jordan and Saudi.

Saying we should remove ourselves from any conflict in the Middle East is like claiming the terrorists have a point. Also, we import only a fraction of our oil from the Middle East so claiming we "dirty our hands" because of it is simply not correct.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

Claiming we're holding Washington's hand is a little disingenuous, we are allies... and we're not alone. Do you know how many countries are involved in the Syrian conflict? We are not alone with the USA, many other countries are involved including Islamic countries like Jordan and Saudi.

Saying we should remove ourselves from any conflict in the Middle East is like claiming the terrorists have a point. Also, we import only a fraction of our oil from the Middle East so claiming we "dirty our hands" because of it is simply not correct.

Do you agree we should of gone to war in Iraq?
Do you believe what's happening now isn't a result of our intervention in Iraq? and do you believe that our partnership with NATO has brought about what is now happening in the West?

To understand what is happening in Europe today, we need to understand the full story and how it unfolded. History didn't start in July 2005 with the London bombings and neither did it start on Friday the 13th in France. If we don't look at the reasons behind these terrorist atrocities then how the hell do we plan a peaceful future for our children?

And lets get one thing straight, I make no excuse for the terrorists as you tried to imply, but I understand the reasons behind the terrorism. They are not doing this because we have some asset they want are they? its not an invasion is it?

[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Do you agree we should of gone to war in Iraq?
Do you believe what's happening now isn't a result of our intervention in Iraq? and do you believe that our partnership with NATO has brought about what is now happening in the West?

To understand what is happening in Europe today, we need to understand the full story and how it unfolded. History didn't start in July 2005 with the London bombings and neither did it start on Friday the 13th in France. If we don't look at the reasons behind these terrorist atrocities then how the hell do we plan a peaceful future for our children?

And lets get one thing straight, I make no excuse for the terrorists as you tried to imply, but I understand the reasons behind the terrorism. They are not doing this because we have some asset they want are they? its not an invasion is it?

The thing is that not all of these issues can be attributed to our intervention in Iraq or anywhere else. These countries were ruled by brutal dictators that kept the population in line through kidnap, torture and mass murder. Thats all these people have known for generations. So when no-one is there to keep the fear, its replaced by others taking their place. That is the true result of what we have today. It stems from generations of abuse of the population in those countries.

Its easy to blame the USA and the UK, but the world was a **** place in those countries long before we intervened.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The thing is that not all of these issues can be attributed to our intervention in Iraq or anywhere else. These countries were ruled by brutal dictators that kept the population in line through kidnap, torture and mass murder. Thats all these people have known for generations. So when no-one is there to keep the fear, its replaced by others taking their place. That is the true result of what we have today. It stems from generations of abuse of the population in those countries.

Its easy to blame the USA and the UK, but the world was a **** place in those countries long before we intervened.

..another good post, bitontheslide...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The thing is that not all of these issues can be attributed to our intervention in Iraq or anywhere else. These countries were ruled by brutal dictators that kept the population in line through kidnap, torture and mass murder. Thats all these people have known for generations. So when no-one is there to keep the fear, its replaced by others taking their place. That is the true result of what we have today. It stems from generations of abuse of the population in those countries.

Its easy to blame the USA and the UK, but the world was a **** place in those countries long before we intervened.

Great post.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The thing is that not all of these issues can be attributed to our intervention in Iraq or anywhere else. These countries were ruled by brutal dictators that kept the population in line through kidnap, torture and mass murder. Thats all these people have known for generations. So when no-one is there to keep the fear, its replaced by others taking their place. That is the true result of what we have today. It stems from generations of abuse of the population in those countries.

Its easy to blame the USA and the UK, but the world was a **** place in those countries long before we intervened.

That begs the question, why didn't we go into Cambodia when Pol Pot was on his mass genocide mission? Why aren't we getting involved with the Ituri conflict, the Kivu conflict or the internal conflict in Myanmar? Sudan and Mexico are two of the worlds most deadly countries because of corrupt governments but we don't seem to worry about them.

I fully understand the interference from the West (mainly America) for removing the Persian Shah and replacing him with Ruhollah Khomeini. We get involved where it suits us financially and never it seems, on moral grounds.

How can we turn our backs on some murderous dictators whilst waging war on others?

[Dollface]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Do you agree we should of gone to war in Iraq?
Do you believe what's happening now isn't a result of our intervention in Iraq? and do you believe that our partnership with NATO has brought about what is now happening in the West?

To understand what is happening in Europe today, we need to understand the full story and how it unfolded. History didn't start in July 2005 with the London bombings and neither did it start on Friday the 13th in France. If we don't look at the reasons behind these terrorist atrocities then how the hell do we plan a peaceful future for our children?

And lets get one thing straight, I make no excuse for the terrorists as you tried to imply, but I understand the reasons behind the terrorism. They are not doing this because we have some asset they want are they? its not an invasion is it?

Understanding them and basically saying that they have a reason for their actions is (imo) making excuses for them.. There's no "reason" for killing innocent people that have nothing to do with what's going on in the middle east.

[Ammi]

..there is no reason with extremists or with their actions, which are only hate... their only aim is to kill, strike terror into and to control the fears and lives of the people they hate...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Dollface

Understanding them and basically saying that they have a reason for their actions is (imo) making excuses for them.. There's no "reason" for killing innocent people that have nothing to do with what's going on in the middle east.

Of course there is NO reason for killing innocent people and there is NO excuse either but why do YOU think they are doing this? This isn't one mad man going on a killing spree, if it were, we would just put this down to insanity. These are groups of people that meet up, plan and then carry out those plans. What reason could these people possibly have? Perhaps you don't think it matters but if we are ever going to find a solution to stopping these killing sprees, the reasons behind why they happen matter very much.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Dollface

Understanding them and basically saying that they have a reason for their actions is (imo) making excuses for them.. There's no "reason" for killing innocent people that have nothing to do with what's going on in the middle east.

To solve a conflict, the most important thing is to try and understand what their reasoning is so that you can combat that and hopefully resolve the issue. For ISIS, they have a very extreme ideology that everyone must bide by their salafi jihadist religion without any compromise.. and so there isn't really much to negotiate.. it's clear the most important thing we must do is prevent radicalisation and stop people turning to ISIS.

Many people who have joined recently quote that they believe 'the west' is bombing their homes and hospitals. ISIS has taken the mistakes of our governments and made out that they were made in malicious intent, and so if we were to drop more bombs indiscriminately in the region I really don't believe it would help to prevent people turning there.

Also what doesn't help is the anti-immigrant sentiment in our country right now. People in dangerous syrian war-zones have ultimately three options: they can join isis, attempt to cross the water into europe, or they can be killed. And I don't think anyone wants the third option, so what we really need to do is be taking more refugees to prevent ISIS getting hold of more fighters and supporters.

This might be poorly written but I hope the point gets across nonetheless. We need to deradicalise, and even better prevent it happening in the first place. The answer is not to drop more bombs, and definitely not to just ignore the syrian civilians.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I would stop holding Washington's hand every time it decided to invade somewhere in the Middle East. There have been many wars we want no part of because there's little gain in getting involved but when it comes to oil/uranium rich deserts, we always want to join in with getting our hands dirty.

If terrorism from the Middle East is going to stop, we have to put an end to invading their lands because its our invasions that are the very bedrock of everything we are seeing unfold today in the West.

This is woefully incorrect Red.

What is the very bedrock of what we are seeing unfold in the West today is a century old agenda by a not so little faction called the Muslim Brotherhood.

Yes - The 'West' has committed more than one 'faux pas' in its meddling in the Middle East, and yes we have been duplicitous - none more so than with the Israel matter - but this is no more than one of many contributary factors and is certainly not THE cause of the appalling horrors which are shedding innocent blood and creating such misery in the West (and in the Middle East and elsewhere).

I will be glad when some British stop trying to blame us for all the world's ills and trying to get us to self-flagellate and wear hair shirts.