[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Do you require help pointing you to ALL the facts? Why don't you debunk them then?

It's the job of the person making the claim to provide evidence. There is no way of knowing or even measuring who the most honest political figure in the UK is, therefore it is simply an opinion, and not the "TRUTH".

I'm happy to concede David Cameron is dishonest if ypu can show me evidence of a lie he has told.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

It's the job of the person making the claim to provide evidence. There is no way of knowing or even measuring who the most honest political figure in the UK is, therefore it is simply an opinion, and not the "TRUTH".

I'm happy to concede David Cameron is dishonest if ypu can show me evidence of a lie he has told.

He said he would not step down as MP. There you go.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

HIS excruciatingly dishonest,

Again, this is just an opinion, without evidence that he lied at any point.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

Again, this is just an opinion, without evidence that he lied at any point.

Stick with this thread and you will have ALL the FACTS that he DEILIBERATELY LIED that any reasonable person could wish for. I am only just beginning.

[MB.]

I'm not sure why you're trying to persuade people to your case considering the vote was held nearly a week ago and the disastrous economic effects and mass-public racism orgy to which it led can be seen as clear as day

[user104658]

Looking forward to being £30 a week better off then!

...except that I, you, and everyone else knows that that is not going to happen. Not ONE of these "hard working" individuals you talk about is going to be financially better off in any real way for being out of the EU. Do you think the govt. will cut any of the tax that currently goes out to the EU? Not a chance. Will any of the towns or areas that receive EU help currently, have that help mirrored by London once we are out? Highly unlikely.

So yeah. The people being "ripped off" by the EU right now in your example are NOT going to be any better off now that we're out. It's bull****. At the same time, the overall cost of removing ourselves from the EU is ---DEFINITELY--- going to hurt the vulnerable most. You know it.

So what is the point? No real person's real life is going to be any better in any real way for any of this. Utter mess.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Looking forward to being £30 a week better off then!

...except that I, you, and everyone else knows that that is not going to happen. Not ONE of these "hard working" individuals you talk about is going to be financially better off in any real way for being out of the EU. Do you think the govt. will cut any of the tax that currently goes out to the EU? Not a chance. Will any of the towns or areas that receive EU help currently, have that help mirrored by London once we are out? Highly unlikely.

So yeah. The people being "ripped off" by the EU right now in your example are NOT going to be any better off now that we're out. It's bull****. At the same time, the overall cost of removing ourselves from the EU is ---DEFINITELY--- going to hurt the vulnerable most. You know it.

So what is the point? No real person's real life is going to be any better in any real way for any of this. Utter mess.

So - are you agreeing that my points about the Sheriff of Nottingham tax and the EU Gravy Train and Corruption are correct or not?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So - are you agreeing that my points about the Sheriff of Nottingham tax and the EU Gravy Train and Corruption are correct or not?

Just the same as above Kirk. It may well be entirely true but if you think we're going to see a penny back of that money, or it being spent in any way more constructively, now that we're out of the EU you are simply dreaming.

Do you think they are going to cut tax? Or that we're going to see our crumbling towns rejuvinated by the money being better spent? Or that it will go to he NHS, or education, or our other public services? Is that something you truly, in your heart of hearts, see on the horizon?

...will you even bother to look into what's going to happen to that money now, so long as it isn't going to the "EU gravy train"? Because I know it won't be back in our pockets. I 100% know it as certainly as you know any of your own "facts". I think you know it, too, I just frankly think you'd be happier to see the money burnt than sent to Europe.

[Tom4784]

truth
truːθ/Submit
noun
the quality or state of being true.
"he had to accept the truth of her accusation"
synonyms: veracity, truthfulness, verity, sincerity, candour, honesty, genuineness; More
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
noun: the truth
"tell me the truth"
synonyms: the fact of the matter, what actually/really happened, the case, so; More
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.
plural noun: truths
"the emergence of scientific truths"

opinion
əˈpɪnjən/Submit
noun
1.
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"that, in my opinion, is right"
synonyms: belief, judgement, thought(s), school of thought, thinking, way of thinking, mind, point of view, view, viewpoint, outlook, angle, slant, side, attitude, stance, perspective, position, standpoint; More
2.
a statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter.
"if in doubt, get a second opinion"

The UK's done goofed and long winded opinion pieces aren't going to change that we're in the ****. Accepting the situation and dealing with it is what's important now. Optimism, vague hope and unrealistic expectations might have worked for the Brexit campaign but that's over now. Now's the time to face reality.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The UK's done goofed and long winded opinion pieces aren't going to change that we're in the ****. Accepting the situation and dealing with it is what's important now. Optimism, vague hope and unrealistic expectations might have worked for the Brexit campaign but that's over now. Now's the time to face reality.

Do you feel lie commenting on my expose?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Do you feel lie commenting on my expose?

The only thing you exposed is that you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact. It's just a really weird campaign post that's one week too late. It's pointless.

Like I said before, the campaign is over and we're in for a ****storm. Focus on that instead of campaigning for something that has been and gone.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The only thing you exposed is that you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact. It's just a really weird campaign post that's one week too late. It's pointless.

Like I said before, the campaign is over and we're in for a ****storm. Focus on that instead of campaigning for something that has been and gone.

Why the aggression? I am not campaigning for anything, I am attempting to nail all the BS being spouted on these threads by posting FACTS, and despite your and some others, very predictable comments to the contrary - I am posting facts.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why the aggression? I am not campaigning for anything, I am attempting to nail all the BS being spouted on these threads by posting FACTS, and despite your and some others, very predictable comments to the contrary - I am posting facts.

I'm not being aggressive, i'm being realistic, also someone that can't go a post without CAPITALISED and bold words shouldn't accuse anyone of being aggressive.

The campaign is over, you are beating a dead horse. Your side won and now you've got to accept the ramifications of that. The fantasy that Brexit was peddling is not going to happen and living in the recent past won't change that. Stop campaigning and accept the situation we're currently in.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why the aggression? I am not campaigning for anything, I am attempting to nail all the BS being spouted on these threads by posting FACTS, and despite your and some others, very predictable comments to the contrary - I am posting facts.

I hate to be a pain but do you have a source for those facts?

[Kizzy]

If brexit was a viable option, where was the preparation?... why was there no system in place so we hit the ground running?

Every single leave advocate that was bleating on relentlessly was suddenly a stunned mullet, they still are.

[_Tom_]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If brexit was a viable option, where was the preparation?... why was there no system in place so we hit the ground running?

Every single leave advocate that was bleating on relentlessly was suddenly a stunned mullet, they still are.

The reason there's no "Brexit plan" is because the Remain camp (David Cameron) BANNED the Civil Service from making one.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by _Tom_

The reason there's no "Brexit plan" is because the Remain camp (David Cameron) BANNED the Civil Service from making one.

I find that hard to believe, any link to that 'fact' Tom?

[_Tom_]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I find that hard to believe, any link to that 'fact' Tom?

Yes:



BBC News

The Civil Service was banned from helping ANY Leave-backing minister to make contingency plans for Brexit.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by _Tom_

Yes:



BBC News

The Civil Service was banned from helping ANY Leave-backing minister to make contingency plans for Brexit.

Right... then why the hell were the commons all patting him on the back as he retired from his post in the knowledge that he had proposed this carve up with no provision for both outcomes?...Seems a massive failure of duty to me.

Am I missing something?

[_Tom_]

More myth-busting:

[arista]

From BBC2HD Newsnight (28/6/16)
some EU members are happy to pack our bags


Thats OK Fellas
we can manage our own bags

[arista]

I am with the EU feller JUNCKER
and Farage and Paul Mason (Daily politics)

NO Cat and Mose Games
Civil Divorce

Our New PM hands over Art 50
soon


We will pay a Price - sure
BUT its our Democratic RIGHT

We Legally Voted to Leave

I thank Dave Cameron for the Vote of
last week

[Crimson Dynamo]

great post Kirk

[the truth]

What a mess. A PM on his way out, a labour coup to get rid of corbyn, an opportunistic sccotish leader trying to breakway from the Uk, will she take the euro? The spanish after Gibraltar, the Irish need a border? An invisible lib dem leader? Plaed are not taken seriously....Endless austerity...Tax breaks for corporations and billionaires across europe....Deregulation for massive corporations and endless red tape killing off SME's so healthy market competition is damaged....Just look at every local town? free parking and land gifted to massive out of town retailers, car parking charges high rates for town centre small businesses? its nationwide/europe wide pattern...With ttip on the way? which is a massive threat to all public services...debts across europe, now despicable racism on the rise? Lets hope the cops weed out these lowlifes.

There is no doubt as Tony Benn always said, the EU commission is in many ways anti democratic. That is and always has been its main intractable problem. The original common market was a wonderful idea and has achieved much. Quite why the EU couldnt have simply remained democratic and elected goodness only knows. Same with their unaudited accounts for 20 years ? The debts and unemployment rates across Europe are a travesty , youth unemployment is over 40% in some countries. I just wish a middle ground could be found, but listening to Juncker he has no interest as any compromise, as this would in his mind show weakness and would possibly open the door to other nations looking for deals. This total inflexibility will bring the EU down. The strongest men are those that remain flexible and bendable. Those who stay too stiff will snap.

In the meantime ftse has gone back to near its original , ftse250 still 6% down and the pound still 10% down on last week

Its rather interesting that london voted remain and the poorer areas like blaenau voted out....if we could go back a week or if we have a re vote today I think remain would win. but we are where we are.
Id like to think a compromise can be found in time , but it seems that will all come down to trade versus open borders.

The tricky issue of immigration could factor in populations and population rises in member nations. the UK population increased 3.7 million in 10 years , in the same period german population fell 2 million as their birth rate is so low. This is crucial, germany are desperate for people to come and work there. Why cant the EU and the UK sit down and make some kind of trade off here. Furthermore the last few neo liberal governments havent bothered building social housing either? Is anyone really checking how many people are living in houses? There are many families with up to 5 or 6 children in 3 bedroom houses...Then we have gangmasters bringing in masses of people are simply not paying them a proper wage, even if they do pay them minimum wages they soon deduct rent, transport , food etc etc We must be able to discuss these topics calmly and openly , if we continue to ignore it, then all we do is embolden the far right and the racist idiots who are currently running rife.

AH i FORGOT TOO, CORBYN wants the opportunity to renationalize steel , bt, parts of transport , utilities, etc etc I mean why is water privatized for goodness sakes? what kind of competitive market is that? but the EU section 206 outlaws re-nationalization, even though german coal is nationalized lol...so from the outset corbyn and old labour were directly opposite to what the EU has become...Thats why the labour members want corbyn but westminster wants a neo liberal pro establishment blairite...The eu controls the tariffs and for some reason they have chinese steel tariffs at a mere 11% whilst the usa has it at 522% ? that is mindboggling...maybe rubbish chinese steel from a nation paying slave wages and polluting the planet suited some people in the EU, who at the same time hammer everyone else for emissions?..so port talbot steelworks is kaput....our government arent allowed to help finance it or nationalize it. ..meanwhile as chinese steel only has 11% tariff, african coffee beans are over 30%, like so many of their products tariffs are high and we are trawling their shores too...so the africans are even more impoverished , but the punchline is the germans made 3.8 billin from african coffee beans last year due the the EU racket on tariffs and they dont even produce coffee? the africans made just 2.5 billion. do you honestly think germany or anyone else on the gravy train would risk giving over some of these profits?lets destroy their agriculture costing them billions, then just give a few million to african charities to look good in public

One notable moment on the night came at 5am when the result was all but done and dusted... when the great dai dimbleby turned to hillary benn and said something along the lines of "I sat here with your father at the other referendum 41 years ago, he told me then the EU commission is appointed , unelected and anti-democratic....why has it taken you so long to catch up?".....Hillary was pretty tongue tied

TONY BENN WAS THE ONLY HONEST INTELLIGENT MAN LEFT IN BRITISH POLITICS AND HIS MAGNIFICENT ANTO EU SPEECH HERE UNDERLINES THE FACT HE WAS 100% RIGHT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw well worth a look


Both campaigns were staggeringly poor. Instead of delivering facts and speaking from the heart we got exaggerations and scaremongering. Cameron has fallen on his sword, the scots want out again, the spanish want gibralter, what a mess....Corbyn it appears decided to support remain after pressure from the party, but after 39 years of protesting with his mate tony benn, railing against the corruption and anti democratic elite bias of the unelected eu commission that was a hard sell, now that he did appease the party , theyre now sticking the knife in because he didnt appease them enough? Maybe he was better off speaking his mind in full when he had the chance, to thine own self be true and all that.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

What a mess. A PM on his way out, a labour coup to get rid of corbyn, an opportunistic sccotish leader trying to breakway from the Uk, will she take the euro? The spanish after Gibraltar, the Irish need a border? An invisible lib dem leader? Plaed are not taken seriously....Endless austerity...Tax breaks for corporations and billionaires across europe....Deregulation for massive corporations and endless red tape killing off SME's so healthy market competition is damaged....Just look at every local town? free parking and land gifted to massive out of town retailers, car parking charges high rates for town centre small businesses? its nationwide/europe wide pattern...With ttip on the way? which is a massive threat to all public services...debts across europe, now despicable racism on the rise? Lets hope the cops weed out these lowlifes.

There is no doubt as Tony Benn always said, the EU commission is in many ways anti democratic. That is and always has been its main intractable problem. The original common market was a wonderful idea and has achieved much. Quite why the EU couldnt have simply remained democratic and elected goodness only knows. Same with their unaudited accounts for 20 years ? The debts and unemployment rates across Europe are a travesty , youth unemployment is over 40% in some countries. I just wish a middle ground could be found, but listening to Juncker he has no interest as any compromise, as this would in his mind show weakness and would possibly open the door to other nations looking for deals. This total inflexibility will bring the EU down. The strongest men are those that remain flexible and bendable. Those who stay too stiff will snap.

In the meantime ftse has gone back to near its original , ftse250 still 6% down and the pound still 10% down on last week

Its rather interesting that london voted remain and the poorer areas like blaenau voted out....if we could go back a week or if we have a re vote today I think remain would win. but we are where we are.
Id like to think a compromise can be found in time , but it seems that will all come down to trade versus open borders.

The tricky issue of immigration could factor in populations and population rises in member nations. the UK population increased 3.7 million in 10 years , in the same period german population fell 2 million as their birth rate is so low. This is crucial, germany are desperate for people to come and work there. Why cant the EU and the UK sit down and make some kind of trade off here. Furthermore the last few neo liberal governments havent bothered building social housing either? Is anyone really checking how many people are living in houses? There are many families with up to 5 or 6 children in 3 bedroom houses...Then we have gangmasters bringing in masses of people are simply not paying them a proper wage, even if they do pay them minimum wages they soon deduct rent, transport , food etc etc We must be able to discuss these topics calmly and openly , if we continue to ignore it, then all we do is embolden the far right and the racist idiots who are currently running rife.

AH i FORGOT TOO, CORBYN wants the opportunity to renationalize steel , bt, parts of transport , utilities, etc etc I mean why is water privatized for goodness sakes? what kind of competitive market is that? but the EU section 206 outlaws re-nationalization, even though german coal is nationalized lol...so from the outset corbyn and old labour were directly opposite to what the EU has become...Thats why the labour members want corbyn but westminster wants a neo liberal pro establishment blairite...The eu controls the tariffs and for some reason they have chinese steel tariffs at a mere 11% whilst the usa has it at 522% ? that is mindboggling...maybe rubbish chinese steel from a nation paying slave wages and polluting the planet suited some people in the EU, who at the same time hammer everyone else for emissions?..so port talbot steelworks is kaput....our government arent allowed to help finance it or nationalize it. ..meanwhile as chinese steel only has 11% tariff, african coffee beans are over 30%, like so many of their products tariffs are high and we are trawling their shores too...so the africans are even more impoverished , but the punchline is the germans made 3.8 billin from african coffee beans last year due the the EU racket on tariffs and they dont even produce coffee? the africans made just 2.5 billion. do you honestly think germany or anyone else on the gravy train would risk giving over some of these profits?lets destroy their agriculture costing them billions, then just give a few million to african charities to look good in public

One notable moment on the night came at 5am when the result was all but done and dusted... when the great dai dimbleby turned to hillary benn and said something along the lines of "I sat here with your father at the other referendum 41 years ago, he told me then the EU commission is appointed , unelected and anti-democratic....why has it taken you so long to catch up?".....Hillary was pretty tongue tied

TONY BENN WAS THE ONLY HONEST INTELLIGENT MAN LEFT IN BRITISH POLITICS AND HIS MAGNIFICENT ANTO EU SPEECH HERE UNDERLINES THE FACT HE WAS 100% RIGHT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw well worth a look


Both campaigns were staggeringly poor. Instead of delivering facts and speaking from the heart we got exaggerations and scaremongering. Cameron has fallen on his sword, the scots want out again, the spanish want gibralter, what a mess....Corbyn it appears decided to support remain after pressure from the party, but after 39 years of protesting with his mate tony benn, railing against the corruption and anti democratic elite bias of the unelected eu commission that was a hard sell, now that he did appease the party , theyre now sticking the knife in because he didnt appease them enough? Maybe he was better off speaking his mind in full when he had the chance, to thine own self be true and all that.

'the truth', you and I have disagreed a lot in the recent past but I do remember when we agreed far more.

While I agree with most of what you have in the post above and I do too feel for Corbyn and do accept he uncomfortably went down the party line, I just cannot see how in any scenario anywhere,where someone can lead if the people he is leading and in this case it is MPs,don't want him to.

They are the people he has to have in the main supporting him.
You know I have joined labour and it is awful witnessing this chaos.

However your post is really balanced,from immigration to the EU and the common market as was, I found myself agreeing more and more as I went through it.
You make a lot of valid points all through.

I also laughed at a particular few words you slotted in there as to 'an invisible Lib Dem leader'.

Well said to that whole post and really I mean that.