[mansi]

Originally posted by James

Only if you live in a parallel universe where right is wrong, and wrong is right.

The bullying against Shilpa started long before the oxo cubes argument and had continued for some time.

It started with Jackiey when she entered the house and Jade picked up the baton, basically, when Jackiey left.

yeah I agree James...

it's so odd how jo and danielle got along fine with shilpa before the goody's came in the house. after the goody's came they suddenly decided to hate her

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by James

Only if you live in a parallel universe where right is wrong, and wrong is right.

The bullying against Shilpa started long before the oxo cubes argument and had continued for some time.

It started with Jackiey when she entered the house and Jade picked up the baton, basically, when Jackiey left.

If only ...

There wasn't any 'bullying', James. Most of the comments and footage took place between the three girls on their own, when Shilpa wasn't even around. It's really quite difficult to bully someone when they're not even there. Meanwhile, the conversations taking place between Jermaine, Shilpa, and usually H but sometimes Dirk too were every bit as bitchy, prejudiced and malicious as what was going on elsewhere. The language may have been more formal, and there may have been a mask of righteous indignation. But otherwise, there was little if anything to separate the two camps.

Jade's mum behaved appallingly, and it was even more shocking because she seemingly had no concept of what she was doing. But Jade didn't 'pick up the baton' at all, although I do remember reading that soundbite elsewhere. She spent the vast majority of the time her mother was in the house red-faced with embarrassment. It was the class prejudice being rubbed in Jade's face that sent things out of control. Nothing more. From a post you made in another thread, I get the impression you already had Jade tried and convicted before she even set foot in the house again. So regardless of her actions, I doubt you would have had a good word to say about her, in any case. That's your prerogative, of course. But it's not a fair or rational position to assume the moral highground from.

[mansi]

^ jade, jo, jack, danielle were the ones who decided to form groups and Ian was stuck inthe middle so obviously shilpa, jermaine, and dirk are going to stick together and talk to another...besides what the hell is jermaine and dirk going to talk about with those little scums who don't have self-respect or respect for those older than them? the incident when jade was talking to jermaine... jade: are you black? wtf...and when jade was yelling her ass off at Ken over crackers....that says a lot about her

[Ruth]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

That was the most transparent and totally bogus 'apology' I've ever seen in my life. They knew that something was going on, and they were called into the diary room (I don't go for the media's 'coaching' c**p at all, by the way) and told that some comments they'd made could be perceived as racist. It was an act of desperate damage limitation, rather than any show of genuine remorse.

I'm not sure which apology bb4eva was referring to. I'd have to agree about the 'apology' in the diary room - I'd be amazed if anybody believed that Danielle was being genuine there. It was obvious that she wasn't sorry at all. However, I believe that in the press conference on the final night, when Danielle apologised, she was genuinely sorry. Whether sorry for what she did in the house, or sorry for herself, I can't say - probably the latter.

I also think Danielle's comments were far worse than Jo's.

I'm wondering why Shilpa isn't one of the options in this poll. She started the argument, after all. And she was every bit as 'guilty' of 'bullying' as the other three, too.

Well, I guess it depends what your opinion of bullying is - and this is something that comes up almost every series. Was Shilpa bullied? I think definitely yes. I don't believe that she herself was a bully though. As for who started the argument - I think Shilpa's point about the girls using X amount of Oxo cubes was fair. In a house full of people, using 2, 3, or 4 cubes (Jade seemed unable to remember how many they had used) was inconsiderate. Shilpa was however wrong when she said that the cubes were the only thing she had ordered. But she did take that back.

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by mansi
^ jade, jo, jack, danielle were the ones who decided to form groups and Ian was stuck inthe middle so obviously shilpa, jermaine, and dirk are going to stick together and talk to another...besides what the hell is jermaine and dirk going to talk about with those little scums who don't have self-respect or respect for those older than them? the incident when jade was talking to jermaine... jade: are you black? wtf...and when jade was yelling her ass off at Ken over crackers....

It's not a case of 'forming groups'. Jade and Jack are a couple, so obviously they spent time together. And Danielle latched onto Jade because she'd met her briefly a few times before they went into the house, so she felt they had some common ground. Jo spent a lot of time with Cleo, which she's been at pains to point out ever since she left the house. Jermaine, Shilpa and Dirk stayed together because they shared mutual contempt for the working class housemates. Dirk did little to earn anyone's respect in the house. And Jermaine barely spoke for much of the first week. Jade's comment to Jermaine was naive. Remember that her father was mixed race. It was nothing more than something most people would perhaps consider fleetingly, and then dismiss because it's not a very polite or appropriate question to ask of anyone. Bumbling into sticky situations is part of Jade's nature. There was no malice or prejudice meant. And being familiar with Michael, it's really not too surprising that she was more than a little confused. Her comments to Ken were something she should've been praised for. He risked the hm's shopping budget, and from her previous experience as a hm, she was concerned that they'd end up with basic rations. I don't see any reason why she shouldn't call Ken to task over his selfishness.

[mansi]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

If only ...

There wasn't any 'bullying', James. Most of the comments and footage took place between the three girls on their own, when Shilpa wasn't even around. It's really quite difficult to bully someone when they're not even there. Meanwhile, the conversations taking place between Jermaine, Shilpa, and usually H but sometimes Dirk too were every bit as bitchy, prejudiced and malicious as what was going on elsewhere. The language may have been more formal, and there may have been a mask of righteous indignation. But otherwise, there was little if anything to separate the two camps.

^you were the one clearly hinting at groups being formed when you said jermaine, shilpa, and dirk were every bit as bitchy...

they didn't share a common dislike on the "working class", that also contradicts what you said in the other thread about Jade and her celebrity status...if i'm not wrong you just said she was apart of the working class...i thought she was the biggest celeb in the house???

[mansi]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes
Her comments to Ken were something she should've been praised for. He risked the hm's shopping budget, and from her previous experience as a hm, she was concerned that they'd end up with basic rations. I don't see any reason why she shouldn't call Ken to task over his selfishness.

screaming and cussing at someone who is triple your age is nothing to be praiseworthy of...

why would she care about the other housemates not getting food, it was all an act from her end to gain their trust and have the housemates like her... and then on the other hand she was a greedy pig and "ate" up all the OXO cubes??? why didn't she think about the others then???

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by Ruth

I'm not sure which apology bb4eva was referring to.

I also think Danielle's comments were far worse than Jo's.

Well, I guess it depends what your opinion of bullying is - and this is something that comes up almost every series. Was Shilpa bullied? I think definitely yes. I don't believe that she herself was a bully though. As for who started the argument - I think Shilpa's point about the girls using X amount of Oxo cubes was fair. In a house full of people, using 2, 3, or 4 cubes (Jade seemed unable to remember how many they had used) was inconsiderate. Shilpa was however wrong when she said that the cubes were the only thing she had ordered. But she did take that back.

I meant her apology to Shilpa.

Cool! I've found a single sentence that someone else agrees with!

Yeah, it does. Meh, there's been examples in every season, pretty much. But there's always raging debates from both sides whenever it's mentioned. I don't think it's fair to say that the three girls were bullies and not include the other group, too. But perhaps it's difficult to see anything else now, because every newspaper has singled them out, and the isolated footage has been repeated literally hundreds of times over. The status quo is to blame them and nobody else, and it's damn near impossible to break that. I think it ended up as 3 they'd used, because there had been four and there was only one left? That's one cube each, which really isn't anything to make a song and dance about. It's not as though they'd sneaked out of the bedroom and emptied the fridge and cupboards for a midnight feast, is it? It was 3 stock cubes, and it was food they had just as much right to use as any other hm's. So I thought her complaining about it was absolutely ridiculous. And that was their initial reaction, too - why is she making such a needless fuss over it? But she wouldn't leave it alone, and it became an argument.

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by mansi

^you were the one clearly hinting at groups being formed when you said jermaine, shilpa, and dirk were every bit as bitchy...

they didn't share a common dislike on the "working class", that also contradicts what you said in the other thread about Jade and her celebrity status...if i'm not wrong you just said she was apart of the working class...i thought she was the biggest celeb in the house???

No, I was just stating what happened and who was involved. If you look back through this forum, you'll see I always dismiss any notions of 'groups', because people just use them to pin prejudices to. In this instance, it's easier to lump them together simply to avoid having to type their names over and over again in every post.

Yeah, they did. No, it doesn't. Since when does class have anything to do with the credentials for someone being a celebrity or not?

Originally posted by mansi

screaming and cussing at someone who is triple your age is nothing to be praiseworthy of...

why would she care about the other housemates not getting food, it was all an act from her end to gain their trust and have the housemates like her... and then on the other hand she was a greedy pig and "ate" up all the OXO cubes??? why didn't she think about the others then???

Speaking out when someone's selfishness may have consequences for a significant number of people isn't something that needs to be tempered according to the age of the individual concerned. If someone is in the wrong, then that's all that matters, regardless of their age.

That's just a ludicrous comment to ensure that she remains painted as the bad guy, when she quite blatantly put the interests of the entire group as a whole above her own. There wasn't even the slightest trace of 'acting' involved at all. It wasn't 'she', because there were three people involved. And using three stock cubes between three people has absolutely nothing to do with 'greed'. It was a fair use of food which belonged to all of them. You can't just pick the bits that fit your point of view, and skip the facts that prove your argument isn't watertight.

[abs]

seriously though, when jackiey was in the house, jade was cool & showed composer. but when her mum went it was all over!!! although i think her wanting to give her family the opportunity to go in the house was the wrong move!

[abs]

its funny, as goby as jade (the pupil) is, when her mum (the teacher) was in the house jade was cool (because she was embarrassed i guess), & when jackieys parents (the higher masters) was in the house jackiey was silent! & you can see jackiey was vex because the parents got on well with shilpa, & was even saying her name right!

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

If someone is in the wrong, then that's all that matters

Oh really? Well that contradicts your incessant urge to take this debate round and round and round in circles, nit-picking at painfully irrelevant points in order to try and bring some sort of justification to the actions of certain people in the CBB5 show.

I would suggest that you walk away from this debate and save your energy for something of relevance. Judging by what I have quoted from you here, somewhere in your confusion, there is a chance your intentions are not entirely contrite.

[James]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

If only ...

There wasn't any 'bullying', James. Most of the comments and footage took place between the three girls on their own, when Shilpa wasn't even around. It's really quite difficult to bully someone when they're not even there.

Bullying comes in many different forms and one type of it is spreading poison and lies behind someone's back, turning people against the victim and verbally abusing them just out of earshot so that they are aware of it. Bullying and bitching are two sides of the same coin in my book but lot of people seem to think bitching is just a normal part of Big Brother unfortunately.

Shilpa was very definately aware of what was going on. Another point to make is that they knew Shilpa would eventually hear the things they said about her behind her back - when she left the house.

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes
I get the impression you already had Jade tried and convicted before she even set foot in the house again. So regardless of her actions, I doubt you would have had a good word to say about her, in any case. That's your prerogative, of course. But it's not a fair or rational position to assume the moral highground from.

To be honest no I didn't like Jade before CBB but she didn't exactly do anything that would improve mine or anyone elses opinion of her. Why would I approve of anything she did in the house?

I watched BB3 and Jade was unpleasant in that towards Sophie. In Channel 5's Back to Reality Jade was completely horrible to Rik Waller. Check out the clips on Youtube - it's vicious. She became a celebrity on the back of these episodes so is it any wonder there was a new victim in Celeb Big Brother.

And then there's all the ridiculous media stunts she has pulled over the years to stay famous. She's the embodiment of pointless celebrity.

But who would have thought she would blow it as much as she did.

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes
It's not a case of 'forming groups'. Jade and Jack are a couple, so obviously they spent time together. And Danielle latched onto Jade because she'd met her briefly a few times before they went into the house, so she felt they had some common ground.

Danielle latched onto Jade because to a WAG like Danielle, Jade has the ideal famous (and rich) for being famous lifestyle. Something Danielle looks up to. Danielle was describing her and Jade as best friends at one point but they'd hardly met.

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes
Jermaine, Shilpa and Dirk stayed together because they shared mutual contempt for the working class housemates.

The other housemates didn't criticise the Jade group because of their social class but rather because their lack of 'class' in the way that they behave and treat other people.

.....

To answer the original question I do have sympathy for Jo because I wouldn't want anyone to go through the mental turmoil that she has.

The other two seem to have almost improved their prospects. Danielle seems to have almost forged a zelebrity career out of this and Jade is everywhere in the papers, which is what she exists to do.

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by The_Hitman

Oh really? Well that contradicts your incessant urge to take this debate round and round and round in circles, nit-picking at painfully irrelevant points in order to try and bring some sort of justification to the actions of certain people in the CBB5 show.

I would suggest that you walk away from this debate and save your energy for something of relevance. Judging by what I have quoted from you here, somewhere in your confusion, there is a chance your intentions are not entirely contrite.

I used to allow people who posted pithy, personal comments here when they'd lost all hope of viable debate to get under my skin. Things change. I don't need to do that any more, and it's so much more life-affirming to simply rise above it.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm fine right here, with plenty to say that's of relevance to the discussion. My heart is warmed by your consideration though, all the same. Although you may want to look up the definition of the word 'contrite'. Have a nice day.

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

I used to allow people who posted pithy, personal comments here when they'd lost all hope of viable debate to get under my skin.

I really dont mean to offend you. I apprieciate your ability to debate, to an extent.

Although you may want to look up the definition of the word 'contrite'.

Oh I think ive hit my target. x

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by James

Bullying comes in many different forms and one type of it is spreading poison and lies behind someone's back, turning people against the victim and verbally abusing them just out of earshot so that they are aware of it. Bullying and bitching are two sides of the same coin in my book but lot of people seem to think bitching is just a normal part of Big Brother unfortunately.

Shilpa was very definately aware of what was going on. Another point to make is that they knew Shilpa would eventually hear the things they said about her behind her back - when she left the house.

To be honest no I didn't like Jade before CBB but she didn't exactly do anything that would improve mine or anyone elses opinion of her. Why would I approve of anything she did in the house?

I watched BB3 and Jade was unpleasant in that towards Sophie. In Channel 5's Back to Reality Jade was completely horrible to Rik Waller. Check out the clips on Youtube - it's vicious. She became a celebrity on the back of these episodes so is it any wonder there was a new victim in Celeb Big Brother.

And then there's all the ridiculous media stunts she has pulled over the years to stay famous. She's the embodiment of pointless celebrity.

But who would have thought she would blow it as much as she did.

The other housemates didn't criticise the Jade group because of their social class but rather because their lack of 'class' in the way that they behave and treat other people.

Indeed, that's a fair point. However, Shilpa and Jermaine did exactly the same thing, which takes us right back to the beginning once again.

Agreed, although I think I saw it in a somewhat cunning way that doesn't quite tally with what I presume you're suggesting. And the same is true for Shilpa and every other hm. Jo for example took the betrayal of H, her supposed friend, very well after leaving the house.

Well actually, she did several things. But if you had a negative disposition towards her from the outset, then of course that wasn't going to resonate. She was extremely embarrassed about the task, and just wanted to be treated the same as everyone else. That was genuine, and it was obvious that she wasn't at all comfortable. That was a positive aspect. She continually apologised for her mother's behaviour and conduct. She was glowing with pride when her grandparents were in the house, and they were lovely, genuine people. I think it would take one hell of a cynic to say that seeing her with them wasn't incredibly sweet. She put the other hm's above herself at every opportunity, particularly when she was concerned about the food budget, and during the incident with Ken. That's already been twisted into a negative though, of course.

I watched BB3 too, and the only hm's that weren't horrible to Sophie were the men who received hand massages, and clearly had high hopes of physical contact of a considerably more intimate nature. I seem to remember she spent the majority of her time in the house complaining that everyone was bullying her, in fact. Are the events really so clear in your mind though, or did a certain Sunday newspaper article add to the memories? I haven't watched Channel 5 since they finished running the repeats of Prisoner Cell Block H. Still, Rik Waller perhaps isn't the best example, given that he's pretty much unanimously regarded as an incredibly obnoxious man. And she became a celebrity on the back of the way she reinvented herself and turned her life around, James. But you've pre-judged her to such a degree that you're overlooking the fact, it seems.

She's a celebrity because she's pulled herself up and made a life for herself. People admire her (or used to, at least) for that, and liked the 'rags to riches' concept of it all. She's stayed famous because she got herself a good agent, and people are (were) genuinely interested in what she was up to. The same comments could easily be applied to umpteen other celebrities, too.

Well, she didn't really 'blow' anything. The media did though, of course - out of all proportion. Ricky Wilson (Kaiser Chiefs) was on Radio 1 when the witch hunt was still raging. I can't quote him exactly, but it was something along the lines of; 'What a fuss, over two women having an argument'. Which is, quite literally, ALL that it was.

I disagree. But if you shared their class bias perhaps, then it would pan out that way, of course. Even though it's wide of the mark, by quite some way. It's almost as though you're quoting, or at least paraphrasing, Jermaine.


It's a shame that so many seem to have allowed preconceptions to cloud their judgement. And I think it's sad that those who actually watch the show more often than anyone else have allowed themselves to have their viewpoint formulated for them by the media, and have replaced an entire series with those few clips that have been shown ad infinitum.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

I'm wondering why Shilpa isn't one of the options in this poll. She started the argument, after all. And she was every bit as 'guilty' of 'bullying' as the other three, too.

You appear to be obsesses by that - it's got to be the third or forth time you've mentioned it. Do you thinkthat is any justification for Jades behaviour?

[Psylocke]

Originally posted by GRiT
Danielle. She looks good, she's had good tactics and she doesn't wear too many clothes. A lethal combination indeed.

What he said

[CharlotteSometimes]

Originally posted by GRiT

You appear to be obsesses by that - it's got to be the third or forth time you've mentioned it. Do you thinkthat is any justification for Jades behaviour?

It's a fact most are determined to overlook, so yes, it warrants as much usage as necessary. Jade's behaviour doesn't need justification any more than Shilpa's. She was being brow-beaten by a woman with a superiority complex, and she defended herself. Yes, she went too far by continuing the argument after she'd shown Shilpa in a different light to the paragon of virtue most would have her painted as. That simply suggests that there was a heck of a lot more provocation that we never got to see.

[Ruth]

How was Jade being 'browbeaten'?

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by CharlotteSometimes

It's a fact most are determined to overlook, so yes, it warrants as much usage as necessary. Jade's behaviour doesn't need justification any more than Shilpa's. She was being brow-beaten by a woman with a superiority complex, and she defended herself. Yes, she went too far by continuing the argument after she'd shown Shilpa in a different light to the paragon of virtue most would have her painted as. That simply suggests that there was a heck of a lot more provocation that we never got to see.

An absolutely astonishing post.

You need to explain how Jade was being browbeaten and how she was being provoked. You also imply that there was much more that we didn't see.

Did you see the whole incident?

[nodisharmony]

"Danielle" has come out the best. She seems to have gotten away with everything.

This is just luck. Danielle has got the best looks as well.

Also, Shilpa Shetty forgave Danielle the most.



That is like a "reference" from the Queen.


Jade Goody was left out to fend for herself.

and she showed her true caring self.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
"Danielle" has come out the best. She seems to have gotten away with everything.

This is just luck. Danielle has got the best looks as well.

Also, Shilpa Shetty forgave Danielle the most.



That is like a "reference" from the Queen.


Jade Goody was left out to fend for herself.

and she showed her true caring self.

Well, that explains you then

Dannielle got away with it

Jade, with the John Noel PR spin machine whirring away faster than a cyclotron - didn't.

So you feel you must present yourself as Jade Goody's knight in shining burberry.



Awwwww, poor you

The more things change....

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by spacebandit

Well, that explains you then

Dannielle got away with it

Jade, with the John Noel PR spin machine whirring away faster than a cyclotron - didn't.

So you feel you must present yourself as Jade Goody's knight in shining burberry.



Awwwww, poor you

The more things change....

"Danielle" did get away with it!

Haven't you observed all of what is going on?



You can make stupid comments about me. I rise above that sort of thing.

This is about Jade & the girls and the unfairness of it all, especially Jade Goody, who has been singled out.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony


"Danielle" did get away with it!

Haven't you observed all of what is going on?



You can make stupid comments about me. I rise above that sort of thing.

This is about Jade & the girls and the unfairness of it all, especially Jade Goody, who has been singled out.

Yes she did, clearly she is smarter than your Jade

They deserve to be pariahs in my opinion

Dannielle for being a racist bitch
Jade for being a manipulative nasty vindictive bully
and Jo for being a sheep and joining in - then being a nasty bitch all by herself

Jade is loathesome - nothing too repulsive and low to make a quick £££ - be that dumping her kids while she's off on her PR trips or just for thinking the GBP were nasty evil little trogs like her - the majority are not and she found that out, at the third time of being an evil spiteful bully on TV

As for the lowlifes who would seek to excuse a bully - I have nothing but utter contempt.

Try not to trip over your bottom lip on the way out