[Marches]

Some people are probably offended by pianos if their mother was murdered by being crushed by one, shall we ban pianos? He can do as he wishes with his business within reason and People can visit their business or not as they chose. I understand the connotations but I feel like if they were to be taken down because a few people complain it sets a bad precedent

[user104658]

Honestly though. Anyone who is trying to claim that there isn't any issue with a big bald tattooed white bloke, with a pub called "The White Hart", choosing to decorate it with other one or two but FIFTEEN dolls which specifically exaggerate the physical features of black people for caricature / comic effect...

Either lying or stupid. Take your pick I guess

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Honestly though. Anyone who is trying to claim that there isn't any issue with a big bald tattooed white bloke, with a pub called "The White Hart", choosing to decorate it with other one or two but FIFTEEN dolls which specifically exaggerate the physical features of black people for caricature / comic effect...

Either lying or stupid. Take your pick I guess

Whatever he is, he has been nothing but polite and helpful when ive been in.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Whatever he is, he has been nothing but polite and helpful when ive been in.

Maybe cos he assumed you was a racist like him and the rest of the customers, and he wanted your money?

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Withano

Maybe cos he assumed you was a racist like him and the rest of the customers, and he wanted your money?

Maybe you could say that seeing as gollywogs are loved, cuddled and generally associated with happiness, denying this lovely man. As that is how i can only judge him. Denying him the right to show off a historic toy as popular as teddy bears like the gollywog is tantamount to racism itself...so maybe you are the racist cause you are seeing a cuddly toy as something nasty simply because its black.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Maybe you could say that seeing as gollywogs are loved, cuddled and generally associated with happiness, denying this lovely man. As that is how i can only judge him. Denying him the right to show off a historic toy as popular as teddy bears like the gollywog is tantamount to racism itself...so maybe you are the racist cause you are seeing a cuddly toy as something nasty simply because its black.

Excellent, well thought-out argument. 10/10.

[arista]

They need to go on TV news
to justify their dolls
from the long past

[montblanc]

even if these dolls' origins aren't racist the black ones look like the racist black stereotypes from back in the day so they shouldn't have them on display like that imo

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wonder if they make celebration cakes?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I wonder if they make celebration cakes?

Never seen a Gollywog celebration cake.What could it be celebrating?

[user104658]

Racial issues aside, a jet black cake is always a bad idea, as it will stain your mouth the colour that the black was made from (usually very dark blue). No gollywog cakes.

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Racial issues aside, a jet black cake is always a bad idea, as it will stain your mouth the colour that the black was made from (usually very dark blue). No gollywog cakes.

Racist trash bet ur perfectly ok stuffing ur face with white cakes

See we can make anything racist

[GoldHeart]

Gollywogs still exist and usually in seaside shops strangely enough ,
So you can't get rid of of gollywogs entirely .
What i find weird is the way they're in this pub and displayed .

Gollywogs will always have racist undertones . But if you own them it doesn't necessarily mean you're racist, which i think some people get confused by .
Some dislike them because of the negative imagery ,and the resemblance to the minstrels .

They're still apart of people's childhood , they're odd looking caricatures that i personally have no interest in buying .

This explains the origin better
http://www.historyofdolls.com/histor...y-of-golliwog/

[Crimson Dynamo]

I used to collect gollywog labels from Robinsons jam as you could send away for an enamel badge

[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I used to collect gollywog labels from Robinsons jam as you could send away for an enamel badge

me too, and there was a book we got at school that was part of the school curriculum in primary, but that doesn't make it right

[Crimson Dynamo]

[Withano]

I think implying that only "the PC brigade" are offended by gollywogs is an insult to all of the country (apart from that bloke and LT apparently).

[Alf]

I don't care who's offended, that's their problem, not mine. You'll just have to become an adult, and learn to deal with your thin skin.

[Maru]

There's more evidence of racism towards this man than evidence of racism I think based on the article. He's had conversations with his patrons about it, and he's not been aggressive or unwelcoming towards people about it seems. He's welcoming a dialogue. That's quite profound. Maybe he's advertising his freedom of speech here by putting up a dozen dolls, but this doesn't automatically mean "oh he's intentionally being offensive!"... there are people who bring up race and bigotry every chance they get... but they can see beyond race right? That doesn't wash. Could easily be interpreted as a counter demonstration to quite a common dialogue in society.

If he were an actual racist, they would be hidden in the back room or he'd be very defensive and discourteous towards folk who questioned him about it. Change his skin color, if this were a black person... and they had Black Power dolls/posters everywhere or something. Which some people do put up when they have organizations or meetings, etc. Some of the same folk would say it's "empowerment" or "freedom of speech" or sharing "their roots"...

TLDR; My point is, none of us can definitively say we know what his intent is. But to automatically go for the worst conclusion on the basis of the color of his skin, his appearance(s) and the items in his bar actually in itself is a racist conclusion.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Maru

There's more evidence of racism towards this man than evidence of racism I think based on the article. He's had conversations with his patrons about it, and he's not been aggressive or unwelcoming towards people about it seems. He's welcoming a dialogue. That's quite profound. Maybe he's advertising his freedom of speech here by putting up a dozen dolls, but this doesn't automatically mean "oh he's intentionally being offensive!"... there are people who bring up race and bigotry every chance they get... but they can see beyond race right? That doesn't wash. Could easily be interpreted as a counter demonstration to quite a common dialogue in society.

If he were an actual racist, they would be hidden in the back room or he'd be very defensive and discourteous towards folk who questioned him about it. Change his skin color, if this were a black person... and they had Black Power dolls/posters everywhere or something. Which some people do put up when they have organizations or meetings, etc. Some of the same folk would say it's "empowerment" or "freedom of speech" or sharing "their roots"...

TLDR; My point is, none of us can definitively say we know what his intent is. But to automatically go for the worst conclusion on the basis of the color of his skin, his appearance(s) and the items in his bar actually in itself is a racist conclusion.

100% Maru

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Maru

There's more evidence of racism towards this man than evidence of racism I think based on the article. He's had conversations with his patrons about it, and he's not been aggressive or unwelcoming towards people about it seems. He's welcoming a dialogue. That's quite profound. Maybe he's advertising his freedom of speech here by putting up a dozen dolls, but this doesn't automatically mean "oh he's intentionally being offensive!"... there are people who bring up race and bigotry every chance they get... but they can see beyond race right? That doesn't wash. Could easily be interpreted as a counter demonstration to quite a common dialogue in society.

If he were an actual racist, they would be hidden in the back room or he'd be very defensive and discourteous towards folk who questioned him about it. Change his skin color, if this were a black person... and they had Black Power dolls/posters everywhere or something. Which some people do put up when they have organizations or meetings, etc. Some of the same folk would say it's "empowerment" or "freedom of speech" or sharing "their roots"...

TLDR; My point is, none of us can definitively say we know what his intent is. But to automatically go for the worst conclusion on the basis of the color of his skin, his appearance(s) and the items in his bar actually in itself is a racist conclusion.

Good post!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

There's more evidence of racism towards this man than evidence of racism I think based on the article. He's had conversations with his patrons about it, and he's not been aggressive or unwelcoming towards people about it seems. He's welcoming a dialogue. That's quite profound. Maybe he's advertising his freedom of speech here by putting up a dozen dolls, but this doesn't automatically mean "oh he's intentionally being offensive!"... there are people who bring up race and bigotry every chance they get... but they can see beyond race right? That doesn't wash. Could easily be interpreted as a counter demonstration to quite a common dialogue in society.

If he were an actual racist, they would be hidden in the back room or he'd be very defensive and discourteous towards folk who questioned him about it. Change his skin color, if this were a black person... and they had Black Power dolls/posters everywhere or something. Which some people do put up when they have organizations or meetings, etc. Some of the same folk would say it's "empowerment" or "freedom of speech" or sharing "their roots"...

TLDR; My point is, none of us can definitively say we know what his intent is. But to automatically go for the worst conclusion on the basis of the color of his skin, his appearance(s) and the items in his bar actually in itself is a racist conclusion.

Perhaps not but... and I don't mean to be, err... country-ist here but I suspect you're speaking from a mostly theoretical standpoint here, and not from the standpoint of someone who has been in dozens of similar pubs / bars (the kind that fly two great big flags outside and have point-making props decorating the bar) and know with some degree of accuracy exactly what the general "vibe" of places like this is. Which would be "nationalistic and xenophobic", mostly... certainly far more than being any sort of true champions of free speech. Again I would happily assume with SOME certainty that the "free speech" that is welcome in this bar, is limited to the "free speech" that the owner happens to agree with... and any other contrary "free speech" would be made very unwelcome.

Again, no, obviously can't say this for 100% certain as I haven't been in this specific bar... but I'm damn sure I've been in a tonne that are virtually indistinguishable from it. Minus the Golliwogs, of course. That part's actually quite unique. Weird and passive aggressive as ****, but unique.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Perhaps not but... and I don't mean to be, err... country-ist here but I suspect you're speaking from a mostly theoretical standpoint here, and not from the standpoint of someone who has been in dozens of similar pubs / bars (the kind that fly two great big flags outside and have point-making props decorating the bar) and know with some degree of accuracy exactly what the general "vibe" of places like this is. Which would be "nationalistic and xenophobic", mostly... certainly far more than being any sort of true champions of free speech. Again I would happily assume with SOME certainty that the "free speech" that is welcome in this bar, is limited to the "free speech" that the owner happens to agree with... and any other contrary "free speech" would be made very unwelcome.

Again, no, obviously can't say this for 100% certain as I haven't been in this specific bar... but I'm damn sure I've been in a tonne that are virtually indistinguishable from it. Minus the Golliwogs, of course. That part's actually quite unique. Weird and passive aggressive as ****, but unique.

Gun conventions, gun stores, outdoor stores or in rural areas, bars, restaurants and various little mom and pop shops in rural areas all display these type of items (never even heard of a Gollywog). Often quite overblown compared to this example. The items in them have some historical context attached to it , sometimes political and they'll happily tell you what the displays are for... one of the last gunshops I'd been to had a Japanese pachinko in it for some reason and I was translating the labels and instructions. There will often be weird little things like that on display as well that many foreigners will come in and ask about it. A lot of these folk are huge history/memorabilia nuts and find some olden symbolism to be indicative of national pride, old-school traditions, etc...


Seriousness aside, I don't know what it is about old people and rag-dolls. I have some my grandmother made, including my very first doll which I still have that is named Cindy. I still have them and I could never find it my heart to get rid of any of my stuffed animals either for similar reasons. They're just so representative of my childhood.

[Maru]

Also interesting stuff out there after looking up the name,... there's an inn here in CT with that name. And a local street named White Hart here in Houston... (edit)

The White Hart ("hart" is an archaic word for a mature white stag) was the personal badge of Richard II, who probably derived it from the arms of his mother, Joan "The Fair Maid of Kent", heiress of Edmund of Woodstock. It may also have been a pun on his name, as in "Rich-hart".[1] In the Wilton Diptych (National Gallery, London), which is the earliest authentic contemporary portrait of an English king, Richard II wears a gold and enamelled white hart jewel, and even the angels surrounding the Virgin Mary all wear white hart badges. In English Folklore, the white hart is associated with Herne the Hunter.

There are still many inns and pubs in England that sport a sign of the white hart, the fifth most popular name for a pub.[2]

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a collection of science fictional tall tales under the title of Tales from the White Hart, which used as a framing device the conceit that the tales were told during drinking sessions in a pub named the White Hart that existed somewhere between Fleet Street and the Embankment. This pub was fictional, but was based on a real pub named the White Horse where the science fiction community of London met in the 1940s and 1950s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hart

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Perhaps not but... and I don't mean to be, err... country-ist here but I suspect you're speaking from a mostly theoretical standpoint here, and not from the standpoint of someone who has been in dozens of similar pubs / bars (the kind that fly two great big flags outside and have point-making props decorating the bar) and know with some degree of accuracy exactly what the general "vibe" of places like this is. Which would be "nationalistic and xenophobic", mostly... certainly far more than being any sort of true champions of free speech. Again I would happily assume with SOME certainty that the "free speech" that is welcome in this bar, is limited to the "free speech" that the owner happens to agree with... and any other contrary "free speech" would be made very unwelcome.

Again, no, obviously can't say this for 100% certain as I haven't been in this specific bar... but I'm damn sure I've been in a tonne that are virtually indistinguishable from it. Minus the Golliwogs, of course. That part's actually quite unique. Weird and passive aggressive as ****, but unique.

You have been in dozens of pubs that fly the English flag, why can't the English flag be flown with pride? after all it is the err flag of England, England must be the only country in the world where flying their flag is seen as some kind of crime couple that with a white man behind the bar with a few tats and not too much hair and you got yourself a racist apparently, I don't know what this guys game is, it does seem a bit odd in these times, but if his patrons don't object then it's his business (pardon the pun), people can vote with their feet if they don't feel it is appropriate