[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think anyone thinks every member is anti-Semitic. This reply is a bit...'not all men' when people talk about the men who do rape and behave atrociously towards women. Wails of 'not all X are like that!' are both pointless and annoying. Pointless as, when discussing the bad people, the bad people are being discussed. The subject does not need to change into 'most X are nice'..annoying because its constant.

Its a fairly widespread problem within the party it seems. But, when people talk about it that does not mean they think all labour members are bigoted, that would be insane!

Also I do think, people expect a bit much of Labour sometimes. Like, I don't really get what can be done about random members being antisemitic, besides chucking them out when their views are noted. They cannot control the behaviour of members beyond that. But I do think Corbyn could do much much more.

That’s the thing though, it’s not widespread, 0.08% of members have been accused of antisemitism, that’s still too many, but the notion that it’s a massive pandemic sweeping the party has been misrepresented, I presume purposefully.

So yes, I do believe that the entire party and it’s members are being accused when the press and people in general label Labour as ‘the party of anti-semites’

Whataboutery tbh. I usually agree with your posts, or at least I find them to be fair on the whole. Here though..I despite whataboutery tbh, and don't really see the point in it when dicussing a program that delves into a known problem in the Labour party. Of course other parties have their own issues..but if there WAS a thread about a program into Islamophobia in the Tory party, the 'what about Labour having a problem with antisemitism' would be derided, as whataboutery tbh.

It might be whataboutery, but to me, it’s deseved whataboutery, racism on all levels should be investigated obviously and it should be stamped out, but by the BBC refusing to investigate it in every party, it points out a clear political bias imo and that’s all my point was, it wasn’t deflection or denial

[bots]

Originally Posted by Liam-

That’s the thing though, it’s not widespread, 0.01% of members have been accused of antisemitism, that’s still too many, but the notion that it’s a massive pandemic sweeping the party has been misrepresented, I presume purposefully.

So yes, I do believe that the entire party and it’s members are being accused when the press and people in general label Labour as ‘the party of anti-semites’



I might be whataboutery, but to me, it’s deseved whataboutery, racism on all levels should be investigated obviously and it should be stamped out, but by the BBC refusing to investigate it in every party, it points out a clear political bias imo.

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

[Vicky.]

Have the BBC actually refused to do a Panorama on Islamophobia or overspending on Brexit? Comes across as they have been asked to but have publically refused? Thats how its coming across.and if so, I understand the anger. If not then I don't really get what the issue is.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Have the BBC actually refused to do a Panorama on Islamophobia or overspending on Brexit? Comes across as they have been asked to but have publically refused? Thats how its coming across.and if so, I understand the anger. If not then I don't really get what the issue is.

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

[Vicky.]

Maybe one day..

Sorry I just kind of refuse to believe the BBC purposely made this program and left out all the stuff from 'the other side' as they purposely wanted to do a hatchet job on Labour. Its just..well what would be the point

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

That's all hearsay. But yes, I'd say there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservatives. And it should definitely be investigated and the culprits expelled, maybe even prosecuted if the evidence is strong enough. Of course, Labour needs to do the same with its anti-Semitism and Labour supporters need to stop trying to diminish what's happening.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

This article js about Tory members , not politicians. Th3 antisemitism things is about core politicians in Labour.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's all hearsay. But yes, I'd say there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservatives. And it should definitely be investigated and the culprits expelled, maybe even prosecuted if the evidence is strong enough. Of course, Labour needs to do the same with its anti-Semitism and Labour supporters need to stop trying to diminish what's happening.

I'd say thats again, a cross party issue tbh. But it does seem more prevalant in the Tories and right wing parties. Like how anti-semitism seems to be more common in the left wing.

Misogyny is rife within the Labour party also, seems to be not only acceptable, but actively applauded from some quarters.

I think that really..on the whole, any party is going to have members with sme bigoted views and theres nothing the party can do about it..only way they could make it so members were not bigoted, is to stop taking members at all!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Maybe one day..

Sorry I just kind of refuse to believe the BBC purposely made this program and left out all the stuff from 'the other side' as they purposely wanted to do a hatchet job on Labour. Its just..well what would be the point

The BBC is the Left's biggest supporter, I have to assume something's deeply wrong if they're airing a show about Anti-Semitism in its ranks . And Labour is currently being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. And rightly so. Supporters of Corbyn were very happy with Chakrabati's ridiculous "inquiry", where the verdict was, nothing to see here, folks. Of course she got to be a Baroness on the strength of that. I hope when the EHRC have finished their investigation, if it does not match hers, she should be removed from the House of Lords.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

Great post, Bots.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The BBC is the Left's biggest supporter, I have to assume something's deeply wrong if they're airing a show about Anti-Semitism in its ranks . And Labour is currently being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. And rightly so. Supporters of Corbyn were very happy with Chakrabati's ridiculous "inquiry", where the verdict was, nothing to see here, folks. Of course she got to be a Baroness on the strength of that. I hope when the EHRC have finished their investigation, if it does not match hers, she should be removed from the House of Lords.

Yeah, that was ridiculous IMO, and that she was 'promoted' soon after..is extremely supsicious at the last

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

From the article:
Recent polls conducted for Hope Not Hate by YouGov – which has a solid record when looking at party members – is horrifying. It found that 60% of Tory members believe Islam “is generally a threat to western civilisation”, with less than one in five dissenting; that 54% hold it to be “generally a threat to the British way of life”; and 43% do not want a Muslim as prime minister

Look at any country with high numbers of muslims and ask yourself if it's unreasonable to assume islam isn't beneficial for civilisations? The last stat is a bit iffy I guess, having a muslim PM would be fine if they didn't try to implement islamic law, which wouldn't pass through the Commons anyway.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

Yeah pretty much took the words out of my fingers.

I think every party will have racists in it.
And I definitely think that most labour members and MP’s are definitely not antisemitic.
I may even give Corbyn himself the benefit of doubt of just being blind to it.
But,It seems to be coming from the top and to be linked with the staunch anti Israel sentiment from the leaders and people who support them.
It’s the kind of politics he promotes and the people he attracts.Many of the hard lefty members who joined to get Corbyn into the top job.
Labour are getting all this focus on them because the top brass are attracting it and enabling it.
They are also constantly deflecting the problem and dismissing the people who speak out,Which makes them look worse.

[Twosugars]

My impression is that there are two things going on here
One, there's anti jewish sentiment among some members that need addressing
Two, theres a smear campaign against labour using this issue in order to undermine the party
The independent inquiry is a great idea. Hopefully it will address the first and neutralise the second.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

My impression is that there are two things going on here
One, there's anti jewish sentiment among some members that need addressing
Two, theres a smear campaign against labour using this issue in order to undermine the party
The independent inquiry is a great idea. Hopefully it will address the first and neutralise the second.

I agree, there is a need for this to be independent now to remove the factional political element from the issue. The demands from Tom Watson to know what Jenny Formby included in her report to the ECHR... why, how is that not politicising the issue further? Of he could have helped with this in his capacity as deputy leader why has he not done so before now? It makes no sense for changes to be made and yet just scream from the sidelines it's not good enough! You are deputy leader Tom, how have you helped the party here at all?...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

They are defending themselves, what's wrong with that? If the reportage is out of context then they are within their rights to challenge the content produced in the programme. Again there is a problem but is this media spin proportional?
As you've highlighted it's being played out not as a Labour problem but a Corbyn problem.... why is that, one of the least predudiced of our modern day politicians is held accountable for rampant Anti-Semetism?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I'd say thats again, a cross party issue tbh. But it does seem more prevalant in the Tories and right wing parties. Like how anti-semitism seems to be more common in the left wing.

Misogyny is rife within the Labour party also, seems to be not only acceptable, but actively applauded from some quarters.

I think that really..on the whole, any party is going to have members with sme bigoted views and theres nothing the party can do about it..only way they could make it so members were not bigoted, is to stop taking members at all!

Where is the evidence that Anti-Semetism is more common in the left wing though,? That's not my experience, it's the ascending far right that has this problem.
Is misogyny purely a Labour issue... rife, applauded and accepted... never heard of that either.
How would s political parties survive without supportive members?

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Where is the evidence that Anti-Semetism is more common in the left wing though,? That's not my experience, it's the ascending far right that has this problem.
Is misogyny purely a Labour issue... rife, applauded and accepted... never heard of that either.
How would s political parties survive without supportive members?

I was surprised at Vicky too. Issues like misogyny, antisemitism etc cut across the political spectrum.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Where is the evidence that Anti-Semetism is more common in the left wing though,? That's not my experience, it's the ascending far right that has this problem.
Is misogyny purely a Labour issue... rife, applauded and accepted... never heard of that either.
How would s political parties survive without supportive members?

Antisemitism, from my experience..seems to come more from the left than the right. And Corbyn has said some very questionable things too. Which does not help. I do think the papers overblow it a bit mind.

I didnt say misogyny was purely a Labour issue either. However, there are very big problems with regards to women with Labour in its current form. Misogyny is everywhere, but I do tend to see it more from blokes (oddly enough, usually with a beard?! Not sure why ) in the Labour party, or who are left wing.

And yes, thats kind of my point about members. Labour cannot control what they do. So to basically stop people supporting so they can't be blamed for the supporters views, would also mean that..the Party is just gone.

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I was surprised at Vicky too. Issues like misogyny, antisemitism etc cut across the political spectrum.

I did not claim otherwise..

[Twosugars]

Disagree it is more with the left

But anyway, what's the point in claiming either way?
Things like that should not be party political issues.

Atm its labour having to sort itself out. That's as far as party politics should go

[Nicky91]

what a difference between UK Labour and our dutch Labour party


ours has no anti-semitism at all


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Kok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joop_den_Uyl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Drees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wouter_Bos

here some examples of politicians from our labour party who were pretty successful in our parliament, some bit controversial maybe

Den Uyl for example more was disliked for his support for Oil businesses, protesters made a song of that in dutch ''Den Uyl in Den Oil, Den Oil in Den Uyl''

Wouter Bos was disliked for his lacklustre attitude during our economical crisis which was near 2010 which lead to him stepping down from Labour, and we had the then mayor of amsterdam Job Cohen as his replacement and then Labour started to go downwards a bit, until now at the european elections this year where they had a huge majority over all the other party's


i do think Labour without Corbyn might do a lot better, someone less controversial, and more stable and views which suit the Labour party

[Beso]

Interesting to see a large spike in new labour members when corbyn came into power...I did wonder where all those skinheads from the 70s, too wise to tattoo a
German swastika onto thier foreheads had dissappeared to....now I know.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Interesting to see a large spike in new labour members when corbyn came into power...I did wonder where all those skinheads from the 70s, too wise to tattoo a
German swastika onto thier foreheads had dissappeared to....now I know.

No, they joined bnp, edl and tommy

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

No, they joined bnp, edl and tommy

I doubt that, imo the numbers joining and hate figures targeted just don't match up.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I doubt that, imo the numbers joining and hate figures targeted just don't match up.

No? I thought they didn't like muslims, Jews and gays too