[Claymores]

Originally posted by HalfwitFTW

My point was:

If your religion says God gave humans an order... 'do not take part in homosexual activities' then you still go ahead and take part in homosexual activities, then you obviously don't fully believe in or practice that religion do you... even though you say you are a follower of that religion.

Saying you are a follower of a particular religion then not properly practicing it or believing in it is a contradiction.

Same with Islam... the very fundamental belief of Islam is you must believe that Mohammad was the greatest human to have lived, that Muslims must live their life exactly as he did. So to call yourself a Muslim and then disagree with his actions is a major contradiction.

I see the inherant minefield we're in hence why I just "thanked the Lord" I'm an aethiest. Smile

I meant to stir no controversy with my daft initial enquiry.

[ange7]

Originally posted by HalfwitFTW

My point was:

If your religion says God gave humans an order... 'do not take part in homosexual activities' then you still go ahead and take part in homosexual activities, then you obviously don't fully believe in or practice that religion do you... even though you say you are a follower of that religion.

Saying you are a follower of a particular religion then not properly practicing it or believing in it is a contradiction.

Same with Islam... the very fundamental belief of Islam is you must believe that Mohammad was the greatest human to have lived, that Muslims must live their life exactly as he did. So to call yourself a Muslim and then disagree with his actions is a major contradiction.

"Saying you are a follower of a particular religion then not properly practicing it or believing in it is a contradiction"
wrong.
YOU don't get to decide whether another person is or isn't religious. Nor do you have the right to question their authenticity. You've also missed the point that religion is also about custom and culture.... things people may adhere to despite them not ticking all YOUR particular boxes. Please consider the possibility that you nor anyone else is best qualified to judge who is one religion or another.

[HalfwitFTW]

[quote]Originally posted by ange7

[i]"Saying you are a follower of a particular religion then not properly practicing it or believing in it is a contradiction"
wrong.
YOU don't get to decide whether another person is or isn't religious. Nor do you have the right to question their authenticity. You've also missed the point that religion is also about custom and culture.... things people may adhere to despite them not ticking all YOUR particular boxes. Please consider the possibility that you nor anyone else is best qualified to judge who is one religion or another.

I'm not deciding if a person is 'religious' or not.

Ok so let me ask you... if I called myself a Communist and then went around propagating Capitalist ideals, would that not be a contradiction?

[HalfwitFTW]

Originally posted by Claymores

I see the inherant minefield we're in hence why I just "thanked the Lord" I'm an aethiest. Smile

I meant to stir no controversy with my daft initial enquiry. [/quote]


Cool. I'm an agnostic myself.

It's not controversial at all. Well I don't think it is anyway

[Clockers]

I also believe relgion is a state of mind, it amazing how many people who are muslim but practice and preach it differently. Did you know there several different sects of muslims all practicing islam in a way they seem fit.

What maybe good for a prophet is not good for a mortal.

[Claymores]

Originally posted by Cristina
Marrying your cousin is indeed legal in UK and I should know.

Also cousin marriage does not just happen with indians here white people who married their cousins over the years:

Queen Victoria.
Rudy Giuliani
Charles Darwin
Albert Einstein
H.G. Wells
Sebastian Bach
Franklin D. Roosevelt

just to name a few

I've tried lots to say I did not mean to offend - I just had a wrong vague memory it was the case.

If I've offended in any way I humbly apologise for the offence. All has been cleared by explanations from FMs so I'm better informed. You learn stuff evenfrom BB sites

[Marc]

you can marry your cousin...? really?

[Claymores]

Originally posted by Marcjswp
you can marry your cousin...? really?

Are you running to the shops now for an engagement ring - is she a hottie?

[Marc]

Originally posted by Claymores

Are you running to the shops now for an engagement ring - is she/he a hottie

Oh thats quite gross LOL no I was just shocked that its actually possible....

[Claymores]

Originally posted by Marcjswp

Oh thats quite gross LOL no I was just shocked that its actually possible....

I was being daft - I'm still quite shocked to learn it is totally legal - gene pool and all that prospects for kids. No offence meant

[sophieyk2]

Wow Claymores, I bet you wish you hadn't started this thread eh? They say money is the root of all evil but religion has a hell of a lot to answer for. Everyone is entitled to believe in whatever they want and no-one should disrespect others beliefs. Myself, although christened and all that malarky, I suppose I am a christian but I don't really have any religious beliefs. That aside - I personally don't agree with cousins marrying apart from the ethics of it, being closely blood related, I think it would get confusing cos if a lad marries his uncle's daughter (his cousin) then his uncle is also his father-in-law, see where I'm coming from. Too confusing!

[kisywisy]

religion is full of contradictions. you can't possibly follow them to the letter

what about homosexual priests/ministers?? they still follow, practice and preach their religion

are you saying that whatever religion we chose/or have chosen for us should be followed blindly?? can you not question any part of your faith??

[Claymores]

Originally posted by sophieyk2
Wow Claymores, I bet you wish you hadn't started this thread eh? They say money is the root of all evil but religion has a hell of a lot to answer for. Everyone is entitled to believe in whatever they want and no-one should disrespect others beliefs. Myself, although christened and all that malarky, I suppose I am a christian but I don't really have any religious beliefs. That aside - I personally don't agree with cousins marrying apart from the ethics of it, being closely blood related, I think it would get confusing cos if a lad marries his uncle's daughter (his cousin) then his uncle is also his father-in-law, see where I'm coming from. Too confusing!

Indeed Soph - I asked a naiive question and we're into families/Religion - the biggest starters of feuds!!!!!!!

[Claymores]

Originally posted by kisywisy
religion is full of contradictions. you can't possibly follow them to the letter

what about homosexual priests/ministers?? they still follow, practice and preach their religion

are you saying that whatever religion we chose/or have chosen for us should be followed blindly?? can you not question any part of your faith??

To lighten the tone kisy - I think I should like Kenneth - his idea of hell is Glasgow!!!!! (I've been hoping you be online today ever since Davina read that out last night!)

[Marc]

Originally posted by Claymores

I was being daft - I'm still quite shocked to learn it is totally legal - gene pool and all that prospects for kids. No offence meant

LOL no offence taken, was only messing with ya

The royal family is all incest so its not that surprising I suppose

[Cybele]

Originally posted by HalfwitFTW
So Cybele you think I am a racist when:


A) Islam is not even a race

and

B) I didn't even say anything offensive, just asked a genuine question out of curiousity

If you think I am racist because of that, then you my friend are an idiot.

It is people like you that are making political correctness go out of control in our world today.... trying to stifle free speech and trying to limit opinions and debates.

First of all, I am not an idiot. Thankyouverymuch. Second of all, I am not, have never been and never will be caught up in all of the PC bullcr*p that tends to cause problems today. However, I don't like seeing someone pass judgement on someone else because they have made, what seems to be, a reasonable choice rather than blindly following something they think is wrong.

I made my initial response to you because, to me, you seemed to be criticizing someone because they did not follow something they felt was wrong in their religion. As I have NEVER... wait let me emphasize that a big stronger... NEVER see anyone say the same thing about a Christian who has said on this forum that they didn't practice things about Christianity that they felt were wrong. Did I mention, NEVER? So while "racist" may not have been the absolute correct term, the sentiment remained the same. You were passing judgement on someone else based on their choices within their religion while not doing the same to anyone in another religion. And before you say that haven't been any of those posts on this forum, you would be wrong. Furthermore, the fact that you are self-admittedly a former Muslim, it makes you look like a hypocrite. How dare you judge him on having "contridictory beliefs" when you have failed the religion yourself.

Finally, I would like to point out that I had not responded to your last entry as I was going to just let it die rather than continue it on a thread which had nothing to do with religion. But as you couldn't leave it alone and preferred to call me an idiot, I have responded. What you should have done was to apologize for being judgemental to the person who received your original comment. Or perhaps re-worded it so that it didn't sound like a criticism.

[kisywisy]

Originally posted by Claymores

To lighten the tone kisy - I think I should like Kenneth - his idea of hell is Glasgow!!!!! (I've been hoping you be online today ever since Davina read that out last night!)

lol i'll not judge him too much for that!! lol

[HalfwitFTW]

Originally posted by Cybele

First of all, I am not an idiot. Thankyouverymuch. Second of all, I am not, have never been and never will be caught up in all of the PC bullcr*p that tends to cause problems today. However, I don't like seeing someone pass judgement on someone else because they have made, what seems to be, a reasonable choice rather than blindly following something they think is wrong.

I made my initial response to you because, to me, you seemed to be criticizing someone because they did not follow something they felt was wrong in their religion. As I have NEVER... wait let me emphasize that a big stronger... NEVER see anyone say the same thing about a Christian who has said on this forum that they didn't practice things about Christianity that they felt were wrong. Did I mention, NEVER? So while "racist" may not have been the absolute correct term, the sentiment remained the same. You were passing judgement on someone else based on their choices within their religion while not doing the same to anyone in another religion. And before you say that haven't been any of those posts on this forum, you would be wrong. Furthermore, the fact that you are self-admittedly a former Muslim, it makes you look like a hypocrite. How dare you judge him on having "contridictory beliefs" when you have failed the religion yourself.

Finally, I would like to point out that I had not responded to your last entry as I was going to just let it die rather than continue it on a thread which had nothing to do with religion. But as you couldn't leave it alone and preferred to call me an idiot, I have responded. What you should have done was to apologize for being judgemental to the person who received your original comment. Or perhaps re-worded it so that it didn't sound like a criticism.

How was I being judgemental? Can you tell me the exact phrase where I passed judgement or criticised?

And yes you called me a racist so of course I'm going to respond, you think I'm just gonna let you call me that and not defend myself?

And it's funny... Clockers had no problem with my question, yet you seem to have taken great offense to it.

And NO I didn't 'fail' at the religion just because I decided it is not right for me. People convert to other beliefs all the time, it is rather rude to call people 'failures' just for deciding to take a different path in life.

[Claymores]

Originally posted by kisywisy

lol i'll not judge him too much for that!! lol

At least you make an impression kis - I thought of you!!!

[olliebeak]

Originally posted by sophieyk2
.......They say money is the root of all evil but religion has a hell of a lot to answer for ...........

The real culprit is bigotry!

If any of us want the freedom to practice what we believe, we have to afford that same privilege to others.

I was baptised into the Church of England as a baby, but I chose to become a Christian as an adult. I worship God and through the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I do not pretend to be perfect in what I do/say, but I hope that I offer followers of other faiths the same respect that I expect from them.

[Claymores]

Stop it folks -
i asked a daft naiive question and didn't want FMs to get involved in feuds over religion/families/bigotry racism. I was the daft Fife laddie that didn't know answer to original question - neg me and not argue please.

[Cybele]

Originally posted by HalfwitFTW

How was I being judgemental? Can you tell me the exact phrase where I passed judgement or criticised?

And yes you called me a racist so of course I'm going to respond, you think I'm just gonna let you call me that and not defend myself?

And it's funny... Clockers had no problem with my question, yet you seem to have taken great offense to it.

And NO I didn't 'fail' at the religion just because I decided it is not right for me. People convert to other beliefs all the time, it is rather rude to call people 'failures' just for deciding to take a different path in life.

My use of the term "failure" was in reference to those who are faithful to the religion. They would see someone leaving the religion as someone who had failed in it. In fact, I rarely hear someone say I am no longer a muslim/christian/whatever. They usually say they are X but no longer practice or something similar. In other words, a person raised Church of England that no longer goes to church would still say they are Christian even though they don't attend church or anything else. In my mind, to say that you are no longer muslim would imply that you no longer believe that Mohammad was a prophet etc. But that is beside the point.

Regarding your wording, I felt and still feel that it sounded judgemental. If that wasn't the case, I apologize. If you had responded with that WAY back then, we wouldn't still be in this bloody argument now.

And with that, I am done. I will no longer respond to anything you post here. I don't think it is appropriate to keep this going. It adds nothing to the thread nor to the forum as a whole. Feel free to respond again calling me whatever you wish. I, for one, will ignore it.

[HalfwitFTW]

Originally posted by Cybele

My use of the term "failure" was in reference to those who are faithful to the religion. They would see someone leaving the religion as someone who had failed in it. In fact, I rarely hear someone say I am no longer a muslim/christian/whatever. They usually say they are X but no longer practice or something similar. In other words, a person raised Church of England that no longer goes to church would still say they are Christian even though they don't attend church or anything else. In my mind, to say that you are no longer muslim would imply that you no longer believe that Mohammad was a prophet etc. But that is beside the point.

Regarding your wording, I felt and still feel that it sounded judgemental. If that wasn't the case, I apologize. If you had responded with that WAY back then, we wouldn't still be in this bloody argument now.

And with that, I am done. I will no longer respond to anything you post here. I don't think it is appropriate to keep this going. It adds nothing to the thread nor to the forum as a whole. Feel free to respond again calling me whatever you wish. I, for one, will ignore it.

Well I apologise too for calling you an idiot. I just took great umbrage at being called a racist.
Let's leave it at that.

As a friend once told me... 'religion just causes divisions, so it's best not to discuss it.'

[The_Long_Run]

Originally posted by HalfwitFTW


My point was:

If your religion says God gave humans an order... 'do not take part in homosexual activities' then you still go ahead and take part in homosexual activities, then you obviously don't fully believe in or practice that religion do you... even though you say you are a follower of that religion.

Saying you are a follower of a particular religion then not properly practicing it or believing in it is a contradiction.

Same with Islam... the very fundamental belief of Islam is you must believe that Mohammad was the greatest human to have lived, that Muslims must live their life exactly as he did. So to call yourself a Muslim and then disagree with his actions is a major contradiction.

So, by analogy I cannot vote for any political party unless I agree with every single one of its manifesto commitments?

What happened to the belief in forgivness of sins? ost religions of which I know belive in sinning as a natural part of the human condition. Without religion is there no sin? or doessociety define sin in contemporary terms, religion is a social construct and as such religion moves with the times. Mores are not fixed and immutable. All scripture are subject to interpretation and reinterpretaion as we understand more and more about the human condition.

I dream of Britain as a secular society which accpts and respects the rights of individuals to follow whatever religion (to whatever extent they choose) so long as they remain within the state (note state, not religious) laws.

[HalfwitFTW]

Originally posted by The_Long_Run

So, by analogy I cannot vote for any political party unless I agree with every single one of its manifesto commitments?

What happened to the belief in forgivness of sins? ost religions of which I know belive in sinning as a natural part of the human condition. Without religion is there no sin? or doessociety define sin in contemporary terms, religion is a social construct and as such religion moves with the times. Mores are not fixed and immutable. All scripture are subject to interpretation and reinterpretaion as we understand more and more about the human condition.

I dream of Britain as a secular society which accpts and respects the rights of individuals to follow whatever religion (to whatever extent they choose) so long as they remain within the state (note state, not religious) laws.

Yes you are right but that wasn't my point.

My point was....

Yes there are aspects of religion which can be open to interpretation but all religions also have a set of CORE beliefs which are NOT open to interpretation.

Eg: With Judaism it is that there is only one God and this is NOT open to discussion; with Christianity it is that Christ was sent from God and belief in Christ is necessary to be allowed into heaven and with Islam it is that Mohammad was sent by God as the perfect example for humans to live their life by. If you deviate from these fundamentals then how can you still call yourself a Jew/Christian/Muslim? It's like saying you're an atheist and then praying to God... yes you are allowed to do it if you like, but doing so no longer makes you an atheist.


Same with politics... you don't have to agree with EVERYthing a political party stands for but if you are going to say you are a member of a certain political party, you do need to agree with the core/fundamentals of what they stand for like right wing/left wing/liberal/etc.