[Ammi]

...I've read through most of this thread and I think most things have been said already..just to touch on something that Dezzy said though...one thing I personally find quite alarming is that at my school we frequently have E-Safety talks for parents and several have been cancelled because out of a roll of almost 200 parents, there has been very little interest in anyone attending or learning how to keep their children safe on the internet..I think the last one, we had around 6 parents attend..?..really quite staggering as we now have children up to 12yrs old so it's very relevant indeed...so yeah, it is easy to come to the conclusion that not all parents are prepared to parent their children themselves....

..also, hmmmm..I read Zee's 'scenario' of two teenage chidren living at home with parents..mine are a little older than teenagers but on and off both live here sometimes and I would never put them in a position where they had to 'declare' anything to me...I'm not stupid, they're young people and will want access to certain things that I don't..I don't think all parents (and hopefully the majority..) will expect their older responsible children to 'declare' anything..I shouldn't have to opt in to anything and totally resent it or the idea of being 'monitered' in any way...

[Z]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I've read through most of this thread and I think most things have been said already..just to touch on something that Dezzy said though...one thing I personally find quite alarming is that at my school we frequently have E-Safety talks for parents and several have been cancelled because out of a roll of almost 200 parents, there has been very little interest in anyone attending or learning how to keep their children safe on the internet..I think the last one, we had around 6 parents attend..?..really quite staggering as we now have children up to 12yrs old so it's very relevant indeed...so yeah, it is easy to come to the conclusion that not all parents are prepared to parent their children themselves....

..also, hmmmm..I read Zee's 'scenario' of two teenage chidren living at home with parents..mine are a little older than teenagers but on and off both live here sometimes and I would never put them in a position where they had to 'declare' anything to me...I'm not stupid, they're young people and will want access to certain things that I don't..I don't think all parents (and hopefully the majority..) will expect their older responsible children to 'declare' anything..I shouldn't have to opt in to anything and totally resent it or the idea of being 'monitered' in any way...

You have to wonder why parents don't show an interest as well... is it because they already know (or think they know) how to keep their children safe? Is it because they don't think their children need to be kept safe (either because they don't think their children would ever come across anything unsafe or they're being negligent)? I think parents with children who are fast approaching their teenage years and that period of growing up are perhaps a little ignorant to the reality of what happens when a person grows up... it's what happens when you see someone every day. You notice changes in people if you haven't seen them for a while because they don't compare with the mental image you had of them from when you last saw them... that's why aunties and uncles say "look how big you are" when they see you after a long time... Whereas parents of 11-14 year olds are perhaps not really properly aware of the fact their kids are becoming young adults and have the needs and desires that all adults do.

Of course, to say to any parent "you're not doing your job properly" is offensive and conjures up images of ignoring their children or not feeding/clothing/looking after them... but that isn't what people are meaning when they say that in relation to this. There's no singular correct way to raise your children but I think if, as a parent, you are concerned about what your children could see on the internet, then you ought to be proactive about doing something about it... doing nothing will almost certainly ensure that your kids will come across something you wouldn't want them to. But if you don't think it's a big deal, and you don't make it a big deal, it probably won't be a big deal... I just think getting the government to intervene in something that could be easily controlled by the individual is several steps too far.

[Ammi]

..I don’t know Zee..maybe it’s something that some parents ‘put off’ thinking about, feeling that it won’t apply until their children are a bit older..maybe like the old ‘birds and bees’ talk that some parents would put off...I don’t think I ever had that but my brothers did lol..my dad took them to the car wash, each individually of course...I’m not sure what the relevance of washing his car was but it seemed to be the designated place....but it is quite alarming that a lot of parents just don’t show any interest at all, I’m sure they are interested and very concerned for their children but ‘taboo’ was never the answer to anything..educating is...you wouldn’t believe how many of these informative evenings we’ve had to cancel....

..I do think there is a difference and a line between ‘controlling’ your children and needing to know everything which is personal to them and showing an interest in everything they do, which I do think you need to, to reassure yourself that they’re as safe in any environment that they can be and also to help them to be cautious in everything...

..I don’t think it’s about telling a parent that they’re doing a rubbish job, most parents do a great job and try their hardest to be the best parents they can be but they don’t all have enough knowledge about the internet and as I say, it’sw about educating themselves to ensure they’re advising their children and also putting blocks on certain things when it’s appropriate with age etc....

..but what you have to remember though Zee is that your parents, any parents are ‘people’ before they’re parents and have gone through everything you have gone through and know exactly how young people feel..that’s not to say that they’re children will be carbon copies of them and that’s something they have to make allowances for and also ‘changing times’ and technology that’s available..but other than the technology bit, honestly nothing has changed and I do think that parents, interested parents are in a very good position to pass on information of their experiences to their children..as they also are of learning from their children as well....

[Z]

That was the point I was trying to make, you just phrased it far better than I ever could Ammi it is awkward to talk about the birds and the bees... it's uncomfortable and nobody wants to do it, but doing nothing is damaging, and I think it's far better to go through a little uncomfortable patch than to pretend children will be young forever and ignore the fact that with the advent of the internet and the glamorised role of sex in pop culture, children are growing up a lot faster than they ever did before...

My point about seeing people every day and not noticing the subtle changes... that applies to parents and their life experiences too... they have a lot to tell, but they perhaps never feel like they have anything to tell unless they're prompted... and kids will never ask for fear of being berated or rejected... by treating things like sex and drugs as taboo, any issues children/teenagers/young adults encounter relating to those things - they will keep to themselves or talk to similarly clueless friends about it... and while all of that seems really unrelated to the issue at hand of banning pornography, I think it's all relevant. Banning an outlet that, for all its evils, is also an informative and safe way to learn about the human body, can only be a bad thing. Sex education at school is presented in cold, hard facts and is squirmingly embarrassing. Kids laugh at other kids if they say or do anything that is out of the norm, especially when it comes to sex. Being able to watch videos and see pictures lets kids know that they aren't weird and there isn't anything wrong with them... I can't remember which thread it was in, but lostalex made some really good points about how when he was growing up, there was no internet to tell him what homosexuality was or to reassure him that he wasn't alone... and now there's a whole generation of kids who can explore their self identities on the internet in the safety of privacy.

I don't think it is about telling parents they're doing a rubbish job either, but quite a few users made comments along those lines in a confrontational way in the early pages of this thread which I thought was a bit counter productive... rather than blame anything on anyone or try and get something banned, we should all be a little more open and honest with each other and especially with our families... because the internet is allowing us to do that on our own terms, so now it's time we applied it to the real world, I think. A feature that allows parents to block sensitive material is a great idea, but porn makes up a huge proportion of the internet and there are so many ways for sexually explicit material to be shared... internet, apps, messages, emails, letters in the post, magazines - there is simply no feasible way to block it all, or at least, current technology can't quite cope with that level of detection yet. That's why it's important that individuals do what they can to minimise risks (block porn "tube" websites; websites like 4chan/b/ board which host graphic content etc) before they turn to their government with an extreme measure that can never work anyway...

[Kizzy]

Birds and the bees.. ease of access to porn negates the need for that little 'chat' doesn't it?
I'm not surprised that of 200 there were 6 attending, who doesn't know how to enable the parental controls? That is in no way a measure of parents culpability here.
The notion that children will be in some way sexually or emotionally stunted by not having access to porn is wrong, sorry zee.
There is a ton of relevant adequate information out there, websites programming on teen sex, sexual health and help with any manner of issues that face teens and young adults.
I don't feel porn is the correct medium to teach anyone anything about life, love, or sex.

[Lee.]

Oh god I've had another Internet nightmare with my daughter... She can't see porn anymore... But she can download a 1D app and pretend to be jade from Little Mix and have hundreds if followers and be called " a stupid ***** twat" by somebody

We had a lot of tears today as her App Store was removed as was YouTube and all Internet access.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Lee.

Oh god I've had another Internet nightmare with my daughter... She can't see porn anymore... But she can download a 1D app and pretend to be jade from Little Mix and have hundreds if followers and be called " a stupid ***** twat" by somebody

We had a lot of tears today as her App Store was removed as was YouTube and all Internet access.

poor lass, It's awful when you see cute kids singing on you tube then look at what some evil gits put as comments!

[Verbal]

Chinese firm Huawei controls net filter praised by PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23452097

Can't be bothered to copy and paste the whole thing

[arista]

"The committee said "the alleged links between Huawei and the Chinese State are concerning, as they generate suspicion as to whether Huawei's intentions are strictly commercial or are more political" - but added that it had not found any evidence of wrongdoing."

Its a Big Company
in China
so fingers get pointed

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Birds and the bees.. ease of access to porn negates the need for that little 'chat' doesn't it?
I'm not surprised that of 200 there were 6 attending, who doesn't know how to enable the parental controls? That is in no way a measure of parents culpability here.
The notion that children will be in some way sexually or emotionally stunted by not having access to porn is wrong, sorry zee.
There is a ton of relevant adequate information out there, websites programming on teen sex, sexual health and help with any manner of issues that face teens and young adults.
I don't feel porn is the correct medium to teach anyone anything about life, love, or sex.

I didn't say they would be stunted in any way, I just said it was a way for young adults to learn more about what they like and don't like. It's one thing to have the birds and the bees explained to you, it's another thing to ask your parents about S&M or something and that doesn't mean every child is a sexual deviant in the making... I just think that, like anything else in life, you won't know if you like something until you try it for yourself, and I'm sure most people would rather watch (for example) an S&M video to see if that's something they'd want to do rather than... you know, try it out first hand. But would websites about sex be allowed under this system? Where do you draw the line between educational and non-educational? There is no clear cut answer to this. People have termed "hardcore pornography" a lot in this thread and elsewhere, but exactly what does that term mean?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

I didn't say they would be stunted in any way, I just said it was a way for young adults to learn more about what they like and don't like. It's one thing to have the birds and the bees explained to you, it's another thing to ask your parents about S&M or something and that doesn't mean every child is a sexual deviant in the making... I just think that, like anything else in life, you won't know if you like something until you try it for yourself, and I'm sure most people would rather watch (for example) an S&M video to see if that's something they'd want to do rather than... you know, try it out first hand. But would websites about sex be allowed under this system? Where do you draw the line between educational and non-educational? There is no clear cut answer to this. People have termed "hardcore pornography" a lot in this thread and elsewhere, but exactly what does that term mean?

If you are watching it on a screen how can you say you're trying it for yourself?
It would be like watching Jackie Chan and thinking you're a black belt...
Do I really want to even try to imagine what could be encompassed in the term 'hardcore pornography'?... No, not if I ever want to sleep again.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you are watching it on a screen how can you say you're trying it for yourself?
It would be like watching Jackie Chan and thinking you're a black belt...
Do I really want to even try to imagine what could be encompassed in the term 'hardcore pornography'?... No, not if I ever want to sleep again.

You'd watch it and think "I'd want to try that myself" or "that's not for me" - but how would you ever know it existed if you didn't hear about it or get to see it for yourself? I've never once wanted to be a Formula 1 driver but I know that because I've seen Formula 1 and have never wanted to become a driver in a Grand Prix. In my mind, it's the same principle.

But one person's definition of hardcore pornography is different to another person's, is my point. Taking the example of S&M again - some people would term that hardcore pornography; others see that as their healthy and normal sex life.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

You'd watch it and think "I'd want to try that myself" or "that's not for me" - but how would you ever know it existed if you didn't hear about it or get to see it for yourself? I've never once wanted to be a Formula 1 driver but I know that because I've seen Formula 1 and have never wanted to become a driver in a Grand Prix. In my mind, it's the same principle.

But one person's definition of hardcore pornography is different to another person's, is my point. Taking the example of S&M again - some people would term that hardcore pornography; others see that as their healthy and normal sex life.

Zee, look at literature 'Tropic of Cancer' and 'The Story of O'...
S&M existed before the internet.

Exploring sexuality isn't a race to the finish line.

[Livia]

This thread is now 22 pages? Mary Whitehouse and her team of outraged prudes, saving the country's innocent children from iniquity, would be SO proud.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Zee, look at literature 'Tropic of Cancer' and 'The Story of O'...
S&M existed before the internet.

Exploring sexuality isn't a race to the finish line.

Right, but if those were banned by the government that would be censorship - so why is this any different?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

Right, but if those were banned by the government that would be censorship - so why is this any different?

They aren't banned... It's all still there.
There are no outraged prudes here livia, the thread is 22 pages as this is serious debates and zee and I are still discussing the topic.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

They aren't banned... It's all still there.
There are no outraged prudes here livia, the thread is 22 pages as this is serious debates and zee and I are still discussing the topic.

Yeah, but if they were, people would call that censorship, was my point. The more general point about sexually explicit material is who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't deemed acceptable. The Prime Minister is putting it in the hands of ISPs, who as it has been revealed in the media, have access to this system from a Chinese company which allegedly has close ties with the Chinese government. All of a sudden, the UK's internet access is in the hands of a company that I think probably has something to do with China's censorship of material that criticises its government. That worries me a lot.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

Yeah, but if they were, people would call that censorship, was my point. The more general point about sexually explicit material is who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't deemed acceptable. The Prime Minister is putting it in the hands of ISPs, who as it has been revealed in the media, have access to this system from a Chinese company which allegedly has close ties with the Chinese government. All of a sudden, the UK's internet access is in the hands of a company that I think probably has something to do with China's censorship of material that criticises its government. That worries me a lot.

That's a lot of 'what if's?'....

[Z]

A lot of what ifs that will become very real scenarios if our government charges on ahead with this! Shaky ground IMO.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

A lot of what ifs that will become very real scenarios if our government charges on ahead with this! Shaky ground IMO.

Have to say the involvement with this company that aided other governments to restrict freedoms is worrying, do we not have boffins to mastermind this?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Have to say the involvement with this company that aided other governments to restrict freedoms is worrying, do we not have boffins to mastermind this?

Yeah I mean it's not to say a Chinese company is going to hold us at ransom; but it's a distinct possibility and there's well documented evidence that freedom of information is severely restricted in China. I don't like this one little bit.

[Z]

Sort of related, I don't think there was a thread about this before?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/23609005

The publisher of Nuts men's magazine is refusing to place "modesty bags" over its magazines, and says it is willing to risk a drop in readership.

Last month Co-op supermarket demanded the magazine be delivered in plastic bags that would conceal provocative images of women on the front cover.

The chain said it would stop stocking the magazine from 9 September if that did not happen.

Nuts called it an "astonishing ultimatum".

Editor Dominic Smith told Newsbeat he had been "shocked" when he heard about it in the media.

Continue reading the main story
I think Co-op will be surprised that we're not putting it in the bag. I think they were probably hoping for a nice easy PR win
Dominic Smith

Editor, Nuts Magazine
He said if Co-op now removed Nuts from its shelves, it would encourage its readers to shop elsewhere.

"If we do sell a few less issues, then so be it," he said.

Readership of Nuts, along with other 'lads' mags' like Zoo and Front, has dropped by more than 70% on average in the last eight years.

Nuts' publisher has already agreed to "tone down" the images and wording on the front cover.

It says it follows discussions with Tesco, which said customers had raised concerns that young children were being exposed to the images on their shelves.

Co-op says its position has not changed: "If Nuts, or any of the other publications, Zoo, Loaded and Front, do not put their titles into modesty bags by the date we've given of 9 September, we will no longer sell the magazines."

[arista]

Yes Feck the Stuffy Co Op

[Z]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes Feck the Stuffy Co Op

[billy123]

I get my porn via bit torrent anyway as do most people so it wont make a jot of difference.
This does nothing whatsoever that is helpful in any way.