[Alf]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

What those campaigning for out have failed to explain is what out actually means. The problem is that you can't have your cake and eat it. If the UK wants to continue doing business with the EU after exiting the EU, then it will need to comply with the EU's terms of doing such business, and guess what, it involves complying with same terms that we do now. The major difference is that as we would no longer be a part of the EU, we would have zero influence in shaping those terms.

Whether we are in or out of Europe, our frameworks have been aligned for the last 40 years, and simply saying we are not a part of it anymore while a great sound bite, isn't even close to the real reality.

You can't take control of your own destiny when you rely on others for mutual trade. The two are by definition, mutually exclusive

Once we leave, the EU will collapse.

Every other country who wants independence are just waiting for us to take the lead.

Did you ever play domino rally?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

What those campaigning for out have failed to explain is what out actually means. The problem is that you can't have your cake and eat it. If the UK wants to continue doing business with the EU after exiting the EU, then it will need to comply with the EU's terms of doing such business, and guess what, it involves complying with same terms that we do now. The major difference is that as we would no longer be a part of the EU, we would have zero influence in shaping those terms.

Whether we are in or out of Europe, our frameworks have been aligned for the last 40 years, and simply saying we are not a part of it anymore while a great sound bite, isn't even close to the real reality.

You can't take control of your own destiny when you rely on others for mutual trade. The two are by definition, mutually exclusive

Excellently put,amazingly concise too, wish I had that ability.

[Johnnyuk123]

[QUOTE=Alf;8559401]Once we leave, the EU will collapse.

Every other country who wants independence are just waiting for us to take the lead.


I agree 100%
The sooner we are out of the failed EU the better!

[joeysteele]

There are actually Countries queuing up to join the EU not leave it.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Alf

Once we leave, the EU will collapse.

Every other country who wants independence are just waiting for us to take the lead.

Did you ever play domino rally?

Nothing could be further from reality. The EU will get on fine without its trouble making partner. It did before we joined

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Excellently put,amazingly concise too, wish I had that ability.

i come from an environment where if you can't put your point across in a couple of paragraphs, no-one will read it. So you soon learn ..... Those outside the environment often accuse me of being too terse, so can't win

[DemolitionRed]

free speech is being undermined by this govt in its own interest – “Staff at the Swansea-based DVLA have been told not to express anti-EU views on Facebook or Twitter in the run up to the referendum.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/po...icise-10974381

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

free speech is being undermined by this govt in its own interest – “Staff at the Swansea-based DVLA have been told not to express anti-EU views on Facebook or Twitter in the run up to the referendum.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/po...icise-10974381

Wow, that's a bit crackers, wonder what the repercussions would be and the grounds for any action taken?

[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

free speech is being undermined by this govt in its own interest – “Staff at the Swansea-based DVLA have been told not to express anti-EU views on Facebook or Twitter in the run up to the referendum.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/po...icise-10974381

Civil servants are in a privileged position and have access to information that is considered secret. All civil servants are bound by the official secrets act and hence publicly commenting on something like the EU could be seen as breaching that.

[Kizzy]

Ah......... * makes all social media private *

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=bitontheslide;8559294]What those campaigning for out have failed to explain is what out actually means. The problem is that you can't have your cake and eat it. If the UK wants to continue doing business with the EU after exiting the EU, then it will need to comply with the EU's terms of doing such business, and guess what, it involves complying with same terms that we do now. The major difference is that as we would no longer be a part of the EU, we would have zero influence in shaping those terms.

THE ABOVE IS SIMPLY AND CATEGORICALLY, NOT TRUE
You are either being misled yourself or are deliberately trying to mislead those members on here who are undecided.

I WILL ASK AGAIN THE SAME QUESTION OF YOU WHICH I HAVE ASKED IN VAIN OF OTHER 'IN' SUPPORTERS; WILL YOU PLEASE POST CORROBORATING EVIDENCE FOR YOUR PREPOSTEROUSLY FALSE CLAIMS?

You ALL keep making statements but will NOT supply any corroboration when asked.

THIS REFERENDUM IS THE SINGULARLY MOST IMPORTANT DECISION WHICH THE POPULATION OF THIS COUNTRY HAS HAD TO FACE MAKING IN ALL OUR LIFETIMES, AND A SERIOUS DEBATE THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT DEMANDS AND DESERVES MORE THAN A FEW 'SOUNDBITES' AND REPEATED, UNCORROBORATED AND FALSE STATEMENTS FROM YOU 'IN' SUPPORTERS.

HERE IS THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR ABSURD CLAIMS - SHOULD YOU CARE TO READ IT. AND I'LL START WITH THAT BALONEY ALL YOU 'IN' SUPPORTERS KEEP SPOUTING ABOUT "THE UK NEEDING TO REMAIN IN THE EU IF WE WANT TO HAVE A SAY IN FORMULATING ITS POLICIES" - OR AS YOU PUT IT:

"The major difference is that as we would no longer be a part of the EU, we would have zero influence in shaping those terms."

THE IRREFUTABLE TRUTH IS; THAT WE HAVE VIRTUALLY NO POWER IN THE EU TO CHANGE ANYTHING:

FACT: In the European Parliament between 2009-14, BRITISH MEP's voted against 576 proposals by the EU which were AGAINST BRITISH INTERESTS and DAMAGING to the UK and were DEFEATED 485 TIMES.

FACT: THAT IS A FAILURE RATE of 84%.

FACT: In that same period, out of a total number of 1,936 motions put before the European Parliament by OTHER MEMBER STATES, only 7 per cent were rejected.

FACT: [B]That means THE EU PARLIAMENT APPROVED 93% of ALL OTHER MOTIONS BUT APPROVED ONLY 16% OF MOTIONS FROM OUR MEP'S WHO WERE TRYING TO ACT IN OUR FAVOUR AND PROTECT OUR INTERESTS.

THAT'S 16% FOR US and 93% FOR THE OTHER MEMBER STATES

THAT'S SOME EUROPEAN 'UNION'. THAT'S SOME 'POWER TO CHANGE THE EU FROM WITHIN' THAT WE BRITISH HAVE. DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH.

HERE'S SOME FACTS AND FIGURES (Those things you 'In' Campaigners do not like and always diregard or ignore)

TOTAL MOTIONS OPPOSED BY UK MEP's BECAUSE THEY WERE UNFAIR OR DAMAGING TO BRITAIN THAT STILL WERE PASSED BY THE EU - FAILURE PERCENTAGE IN BRACKETS:

Regional development - (100%)
Petitions - (100%)
Budget - (98%)
Budgetary control - (98%)
Constitutional and inter-institutional affairs - (92%)
Agriculture - (91%)
Employment & social affairs - (91%)
Legal affairs - (91%)
Economic & monetary affairs - (89%)
Gender equality - (88%)
Environment & public health - (86%)
Culture & education - (82%)
Development - (80%)
Fisheries - (80%)
Industry, research & energy - (80%)
Transport & tourism - (75%)
Internal market & consumer protection - (75%)
Civil liberties, justice & home affairs - (73%)
Foreign & security policy - (50%)
Internal regulations of the EP - (50%)
International trade - (29%)

And here is WHY we HAVE NO POWER in the EU and just HOW the EU is so easily ABLE to feck us over and DENY our MEP's THE RIGHT TO INFLUENCE DECISIONS MADE IN BRUSSELS WHICH ARE DAMAGING TO BRITISH INTERESTS:

FACT: From the start, The European Parliament has been dominated by the Leftie Socialist and Democrat Party, and the centreright
European People’s Party - both of whom are fiercely committed to further European integration, and both of whom are staunchly federalist in their interpretation of the Lisbon Treaty,and both of whom totally support virtually every motion proposed by the European Commission.

COMPARE THESE TWO PARTIES 458 SEATS - WHICH IS 60% OF THE TOTAL AVAILABLE SEATS IN THE EUP - WITH THE UK'S PATHETIC 10%, AND IT'S NOT HARD TO SEE WHY WE HAVE NO POWER TO INFLUENCE ANYTHING WITHIN THE EU, AND WHY IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO PROTECT OUR INTERESTS AT ALL, AND WHY UK MEP'S ARE TOO OFTEN OUTVOTED AND POWERLESS TO STOP BRUSSELS LEGISLATION WHICH IS HARMFUL TO THE UK, FROM BEING PASSED INTO BRITISH LAW.

FACT: As bad as it has always been, the UK's influence in the EUP is rapidly declining as the EU expands. Now, we have just 73 MEPs out of 751.

FACT: In 1979, Britain had 20 per cent of seats in the European Parliament; today it has only 10 per cent.

FACT: A House of Commons report stated that British administrators made up only 6 per cent of the administrative grade within the EUP in 2013.

FACT: Eurozone members have almost 8 TIMES the number of seats within the EUP that the UK has.

THIS IS WHY YOUR CLAIMS - APPLAUDED OR NOT BY YOUR 'IN' CROWD MATES - ARE NOTHING BUT UNTRUE AND MISLEADING RHETORIC, AND ALSO WHY OUR FISHING AND FARMING INDUSTRIES HAVE BEEN DECIMATED AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BRITISH PEOPLE THROWN OUT OF WORK, AND WHY WE HAVE BEEN PAYING MORE FOR OUR FOOD FOR THE PAST DECADES THAN WE SHOULD HAVE, AND WHY FOREIGN CRIMINALS ARE SET FREE TO ROAM BRITISH STREETS AND REOFFEND ETC. ETC. ETC. - BECAUSE THE EU IS IMPOSING ITS LAWS UPON US AND OUR MEP'S ARE SO OUTNUMBERED AND SO IMPOTENT, THAT THEY ARE CONSTANTLY OUTVOTED WHEN THEY OPPOSE SUCH MOTIONS AND THERE IS FECK ALL WE CAN DO ABOUT IT - WHILE EVER WE REMAIN IN THE CORRUPT EU.



I WILL address the rest of your misleading rhetoric in another post.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

There are actually Countries queuing up to join the EU not leave it.

Countries with 'Third World Banana Republic' economies are only too keen to join the corrupt EU because they know from the past 42 years that this country's tax payers will continue paying all those annual multi billion pounds net contributions - some of which subsidises their countries, and because they also know from recent history, that as members of the EU they get to 'Pass Go' and 'Collect Ł200' - or in this case, get a pass straight into the UK and collect much more than Ł200 - to the detriment of the UK's OWN POOR.

Of course SOME "countries are queing up to join the EU."

There are also others DYING to GET OUT of that mess.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

free speech is being undermined by this govt in its own interest – “Staff at the Swansea-based DVLA have been told not to express anti-EU views on Facebook or Twitter in the run up to the referendum.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/po...icise-10974381

Credit to you for highlighting this.

One might care to ask the question of just WHY these Tories are so DESPERATE to remain in the EU that they are resorting to lying in the media and stifling free speech?

It cannnot be because of any belief that the EU GENUINELY benefits the PEOPLE of this country, given the AUSTERITY CUTS and other PEOPLE-HARMING measures it is so fond of.

Is it that HUGE CHUNKS of those huge deficits of public money by way of the multi billion pound annual NET payments finds it way back into the pockets of themselves and the huge corporations by by stealth, in true 'Sheriff of Nottingham Tax' 'rob the poor to give to the rich' style?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Nothing could be further from reality. The EU will get on fine without its trouble making partner. It did before we joined

This is just more uncorroborated misleading and UNTRUE baloney.

The EU is disintigrating at a rate of knots and it is DESTINED to totally implode - a BREXIT, and the loss of our 100's of Billions of pounds total NET contribution to the EU, and our continuation of a 40 year history of the UK buying billions of pounds worth of goods FROM the EU than they buy from us, could be the catalyst which sees it totally implode sooner.

HERE ARE SOME CORROBORATING ARTICLES FOR YOU TO READ - THIS IS NOT SPAMMING, BUT CORROBORATION FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES WHICH EVEN THE 'IN' CAMP ON HERE CANNOT DENY, IGNORE, OR BRUSH ASIDE:

DE SPEIGAL

"European Union in Trouble Says Parliament President Schulz"
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1065306.html

EU Parliament President Schulz: 'The Situation in Europe Is Extremely Concerning'

In an interview, European Parliament President Martin Schulz says he is more concerned about the state of the European Union than he has ever been.
...........................................
THE TELEGRAPH

How the EU could collapse in 2016

Rather than protect Europeans, the EU is in desperate trouble.

The edifice of federalism is crumbling, broken by its own ruinous contradictions and spectacular failures. The creators of the European Union promised to bring peace and prosperity. But through their grandiose folly, they have fuelled only debt, despair and disintegration. The EU itself has become the greatest threat to our continent.
.................................................. ..

BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18094883

Eurozone crisis.

.................................................. ...
PRESS TV

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/0...n-EU-collapse/

French PM warns EU may collapse in coming months

France warns of imminent EU collapse
.................................................. ........
EUROWEEKLY NEWS
http://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15...nt-eu-collapse

Billionaire George Soros warns of imminent EU collapse
.................................................. .........

THE EU IS IN FREEFALL AND WE DO NOT NEED TO PAY Ł55 MILLION POUNDS PER DAY NET TO BE A MEMBER OF A CLUB FROM WHICH WE DERIVE NO BENEFITS - ONLY DISADVANTAGES.

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This is just more uncorroborated misleading and UNTRUE baloney.

The EU is disintigrating at a rate of knots and it is DESTINED to totally implode - a BREXIT, and the loss of our 100's of Billions of pounds total NET contribution to the EU, and our continuation of a 40 year history of the UK buying billions of pounds worth of goods FROM the EU than they buy from us, could be the catalyst which sees it totally implode sooner.

HERE ARE SOME CORROBORATING ARTICLES FOR YOU TO READ - THIS IS NOT SPAMMING, BUT CORROBORATION FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES WHICH EVEN THE 'IN' CAMP ON HERE CANNOT DENY, IGNORE, OR BRUSH ASIDE:

DE SPEIGAL

"European Union in Trouble Says Parliament President Schulz"
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1065306.html

EU Parliament President Schulz: 'The Situation in Europe Is Extremely Concerning'

In an interview, European Parliament President Martin Schulz says he is more concerned about the state of the European Union than he has ever been.
...........................................
THE TELEGRAPH

How the EU could collapse in 2016

Rather than protect Europeans, the EU is in desperate trouble.

The edifice of federalism is crumbling, broken by its own ruinous contradictions and spectacular failures. The creators of the European Union promised to bring peace and prosperity. But through their grandiose folly, they have fuelled only debt, despair and disintegration. The EU itself has become the greatest threat to our continent.
.................................................. ..

BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18094883

Eurozone crisis.

.................................................. ...
PRESS TV

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/0...n-EU-collapse/

French PM warns EU may collapse in coming months

France warns of imminent EU collapse
.................................................. ........
EUROWEEKLY NEWS
http://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15...nt-eu-collapse

Billionaire George Soros warns of imminent EU collapse
.................................................. .........

THE EU IS IN FREEFALL AND WE DO NOT NEED TO PAY Ł55 MILLION POUNDS PER DAY NET TO BE A MEMBER OF A CLUB FROM WHICH WE DERIVE NO BENEFITS - ONLY DISADVANTAGES.

Kindly refrain from calling me a liar, I am NOT

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Kindly refrain from calling me a liar, I am NOT

This really is the epitome of hypocrisy:

ALF POSTED :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf View Post

"Once we leave, the EU will collapse. Every other country who wants independence are just waiting for us to take the lead. Did you ever play domino rally?"

TO WHICH YOU COMMENTE

"Nothing could be further from reality. The EU will get on fine without its trouble making partner. It did before we joined".

ARE YOU CALLING ALF A LIAR BY CONTRADICTING AND DISPUTING WHAT HE STATED?

YOU ARE, AFTER ALL STATING THAT HIS STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE, ARE YOU NOT?

AND WHERE IS IT ANY DIFFERENT FROM YOU POSTING:

"Nothing could be further from reality. The EU will get on fine without its trouble making partner. It did before we joined".

AND ME COMMENTING TO IT:

"This just more uncorroborated misleading and UNTRUE baloney."

I AM, AFTER ALL MERELY STATING THAT YOUR STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE, AM I NOT?

This all smacks of unfair tactics in trying to silence me because I DO rebutt the misleading baloney you post so authoratively as FACT, and YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS.

This is supposedly SERIOUS DEBATES - not "SAYING IT MAKES IT SO" and we are all adults.

Enough with the false claims that I am insulting you and calling you a liar when I am not, and answer my posts.

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This really is the epitome of hypocrisy:

ALF POSTED :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf View Post

"Once we leave, the EU will collapse. Every other country who wants independence are just waiting for us to take the lead. Did you ever play domino rally?"

TO WHICH YOU COMMENTE

"Nothing could be further from reality. The EU will get on fine without its trouble making partner. It did before we joined".

ARE YOU CALLING ALF A LIAR BY CONTRADICTING AND DISPUTING WHAT HE STATED?

YOU ARE, AFTER ALL STATING THAT HIS STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE, ARE YOU NOT?

AND WHERE IS IT ANY DIFFERENT FROM YOU POSTING:

"Nothing could be further from reality. The EU will get on fine without its trouble making partner. It did before we joined".

AND ME COMMENTING TO IT:

"This just more uncorroborated misleading and UNTRUE baloney."

I AM, AFTER ALL MERELY STATING THAT YOUR STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE, AM I NOT?

This all smacks of unfair tactics in trying to silence me because I DO rebutt the misleading baloney you post so authoratively as FACT, and YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS.

This is supposedly SERIOUS DEBATES - not "SAYING IT MAKES IT SO" and we are all adults.

Enough with the false claims that I am insulting you and calling you a liar when I am not, and answer my posts.

You know damn well what I am referring too. My point remains irrefutably correct. The EU flourished prior to the UK joining, that's WHY we joined. So my facts are not baloney, a lie or untrue. Now, I will not be reading or responding further to any of your future posts

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

You know damn well what I am referring too. My point remains irrefutably correct. The EU flourished prior to the UK joining, that's WHY we joined. So my facts are not baloney, a lie or untrue. Now, I will not be reading or responding further to any of your future posts

Your prerogative, but you did not just state that the EU "was flourishing" when we joined - you contradicted Alf's statement that the EU would collapse when we exited by stating "Nothing could be further from reality" and my post completely rebutts your rebuttal of Alf's post.

Yet you still maintain your post to be correct, which is unsurprising given the history of the 'In' campaigners posts on this thread.

Anyway, to be honest, this all smacks of a convenient cop out because you have no valid answer to my points.

[arista]

100 Days to go
until some will vote In or Out.

We need Full 2 Hours debates with the public.
on SkyNewsHD Ch4HD and BBC2HD

[joeysteele]

People stop responding because eventually it becomes a pointless exercise.

I keep posting on this thread because I believe in staying in the EU for the reasons I list in all my posts over the thread for any to read.

However it becomes wearisome to respond to those who are of the opposite side to me on this issue because all they can see is the negatives of the EU and never once list any of the good.

So when someone gives up responding,it is not because the argument is lost at all likely, it is because they have made their points and ended up getting over analytical scrutiny of their points ad likely eventual abuse as to their views too.

So little wonder some just decide to leave it.

There is no point at all in me talking on this thread to those determined to be out no matter what the cost to the UK,I will make my points still but I make them in the hope that those undecided may latch onto to something I say and that hopefully it might in even a very small way,be of assistance to them in making their minds up.

This thread is full of figures and statistics that quite frankly in my view just go over the heads of people.
You can make statistics and figures, sound as good or as bad as you want them to,from whatever perspective you are coming from.
I feel really sorry at times for the totally undecided,who are getting little to help them see the EU as to all its make up.
I feel even sorrier for them that the out camp, and yes this is a direct comment as to the camp,that they get not a scrap of real assured guarantees of as I have said before and am saying again,as to if we could be the same, better or a lot better out of the EU, with the guaranteed blueprint of the plan with full costings too.

For me because of that, the out camp has lost the argument and sorry if I upset anyone with that statement.

However anyone expecting someone to really vote for an alternative to what is already in place and in the main secure and successful and has been for decades, well they need to really spell out the facts, costs and how successful we 'will' be out rather than 'in'.
Failure to do that leaves little to consider then in my view on the 'out' side.

Which is why I was on the 'in' side years ago,and why even moreso after the lack of guarantees from the out camp both on here here as well as nationally my mind just becomes more solid as to staying.
As does my determination to certainly vote to hold onto what we have, the success we have, the security we have and what can be seen for sure in the future too.
All things uncertain with nothing really guaranteed laid out from the opposite side.

However, no way has an argument been lost because someone decides to stop responding to another,on the contrary it is more like because it has become a total waste of time and energy.
With no one in such responses/debate, learning anything constructive either.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

People stop responding because eventually it becomes a pointless exercise.

I keep posting on this thread because I believe in staying in the EU for the reasons I list in all my posts over the thread for any to read.

However it becomes wearisome to respond to those who are of the opposite side to me on this issue because all they can see is the negatives of the EU and never once list any of the good.

So when someone gives up responding,it is not because the argument is lost at all likely, it is because they have made their points and ended up getting over analytical scrutiny of their points ad likely eventual abuse as to their views too.

So little wonder some just decide to leave it.

There is no point at all in me talking on this thread to those determined to be out no matter what the cost to the UK,I will make my points still but I make them in the hope that those undecided may latch onto to something I say and that hopefully it might in even a very small way,be of assistance to them in making their minds up.

This thread is full of figures and statistics that quite frankly in my view just go over the heads of people.
You can make statistics and figures, sound as good or as bad as you want them to,from whatever perspective you are coming from.
I feel really sorry at times for the totally undecided,who are getting little to help them see the EU as to all its make up.
I feel even sorrier for them that the out camp, and yes this is a direct comment as to the camp,that they get not a scrap of real assured guarantees of as I have said before and am saying again,as to if we could be the same, better or a lot better out of the EU, with the guaranteed blueprint of the plan with full costings too.

For me because of that, the out camp has lost the argument and sorry if I upset anyone with that statement.

However anyone expecting someone to really vote for an alternative to what is already in place and in the main secure and successful and has been for decades, well they need to really spell out the facts, costs and how successful we 'will' be out rather than 'in'.
Failure to do that leaves little to consider then in my view on the 'out' side.

Which is why I was on the 'in' side years ago,and why even moreso after the lack of guarantees from the out camp both on here here as well as nationally my mind just becomes more solid as to staying.
As does my determination to certainly vote to hold onto what we have, the success we have, the security we have and what can be seen for sure in the future too.
All things uncertain with nothing really guaranteed laid out from the opposite side.

However, no way has an argument been lost because someone decides to stop responding to another,on the contrary it is more like because it has become a total waste of time and energy.
With no one in such responses/debate, learning anything constructive either.

[JoshBB]

Remaining within the EU is the most sensible option for trade and the economy right now. People are trying to play the patriotic card by saying we should retain our own sovereignty, which we already do. I think a 'Federal States of Europe' is an inherently bad idea which would lead to member states having less power to act in the will of their own people, although unity is never a bad thing this is not the way to go about it.

Another thing with 'sovereignty' is that if we left the EU, our imports/exports would suffer and small/growing businesses may close down. This would hurt the economy, and if we were to go into another recession then I doubt we will have the financial capability to retain the sovereignty that we desire - funding the NHS and other public services already seems too much a challenge for our government, with a worse economy they would have no hesitation to slashing the budgets even further.

The EU is not perfect by any means, but the best route is always reform - and I mean proper reform, not the small piece of paper given to us by Dave. I would like to see direct elections of the President of the European Commission as well as europe-wide referendums on big issues such as Climate Change initiatives and TTIP, which is one of my biggest concerns if we were to stay in the EU. Even if it were implemented though, I still don't see it as a reason to leave. The benefits far outweigh the cons.

[Alf]

It'll all end in war. It always does.

[RichardG]

Keep us in so I can move to somewhere around Scandinavia when I'm older

[Jamie89]

I've been really on the fence with it because there's obvious pro's and con's. But I'm leaning more towards an 'out' vote for a couple of reasons. First of all I think that if we vote to leave the EU, there's a good chance we will be offered a better 'deal' in order for us to remain, which we really need as I don't think it's working for us in it's current state. And secondly, if we were to leave, I actually think it could prove to be beneficial for trade and small businesses. I know someone who runs a small business and the restrictions he faces on buying from outside of Europe are really damaging to him because of the higher taxation levels. I can't remember the exact figures but if he were to buy from China for example he would have to pay so much in tax to the EU that it makes it a no go. So whilst we may currently get better trade deals with countries within Europe, this is rendered pointless by the fact that many business owners effectively can't buy from outside Europe (when they may need to, if the goods they need are being sold there at a much better price). So yeah, leaving the EU would mean losing the current trade benefits we get, but it would also open up so many more opportunities for people like my friend who won't face extortionate taxation for buying from the rest of the world.
Anyway, I don't really know a lot about the 'ins and outs' () of it all to be honest hence me being slightly undecided, but I do think it would help smaller businesses (from what my mate told me anyway) and this is really important, so if we can't get a better deal for trading outside of Europe then maybe leaving is best