[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shasown

No I have no problem understanding that concept, it was always there as one small infinitismal point of pure condensed energy, that was always there as a single point of pure condensed energy and it would have always been a single point of pure condenced energy unless something created a change in its state and the big bang started. Some external force, catalyst call it what you want, umm I know lets call it God, for want of a better word, God doesnt have to be an omnipowerful all knowing all loving being does he?

You see if it was an infinite singularity containing all energy/matter then something other than energy/matter would have had to create the effect, if it wasnt an infinite singularity of energy/matter then it had a beginning and if it had a beginning it had a creating force or creator - God.

God doesnt have to be as is defined in any of the religions in existance, having been in existance or even that will come into existance.

Some theories state it has always simply been in its current state and there was no start of the universe. Makes sense if you accept time is man made.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Tom

Some theories state it has always simply been in its current state and there was no start of the universe. Makes sense if you accept time is man made.

The concept we understand or call time is man made, it is simply a way to place ourselves relatively to each other and everything around us.

Mind you so is the concept we call God.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot

True. Or the multiverse theory could apply.

Either way, if some intelligence exists, I believe it to be an unconcious one. I'm not sure. You talk about your rabbit Setanta [you should be a veggie after saying something like that, surely?], but how do you explain this? :
].

But that's the whole thing: I can't rationalize it. It was just a silly example in my own life to show that there's something connecting us all beyond the physical. That's what I think anyway.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Shasown

The concept we understand or call time is man made, it is simply a way to place ourselves relatively to each other and everything around us.

Mind you so is the concept we call God.

Very well put. It also shackles us in a way.

[Stu]

It's dizzying, really. I think part of the problem is I want a definate belief system so I can stop all this stuff as a hobby and get onto other things, but the more your read the more there is to read.

I was almost trapped into virtually each one of the major world religions at least once over the past few years, simply because I wanted a stable base.

They are all bullshit of course. It's not that easy.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by setanta

But that's the whole thing: I can't rationalize it. It was just a silly example in my own life to show that there's something connecting us all beyond the physical. That's what I think anyway.

At the moment you dont have to either rationalise it, or conceptionalise it, look up genetic memory, then collective/universal consciousness. We are all connected just depends which idea is more digestable/agreeable.

Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot

It's dizzying, really. I think part of the problem is I want a definate belief system so I can stop all this stuff as a hobby and get onto other things, but the more your read the more there is to read.

I was almost trapped into virtually each one of the major world religions at least once over the past few years, simply because I wanted a stable base.

They are all bullshit of course. It's not that easy.

Thats easy decide what you like, what sits with you, and discard everything else, you will find some christian, some islamic and some buddhist tenets sort of all slip together, as to the end result, well you as an individual live in your own reality, so the meaning of life will be as individual to you as your reality, in my eyes I dont think people should say he/she is a ... (insert an organised religion) unless of course as an example: he is a free thinking ... muslim, catholic etc

No one has ever met a Catholic who totally follows the dictates of the church throughout their life. I have a lot more experience than a lot of people in that aspect and I know it just doesnt happen. Even his Most Holiness the Pope Benedict XVI supported a regime that to some would be abhorrent, he was a member of hitler jugend - hitler youth, does that make him any less correct in his views now?

Just as the various branches of any religion take what they want and emphasise what they feel they need to, so do individuals, you can shop for a ready made solution, doesnt really matter what you follow so long as there is some agreement between the person and the religion, otherwise it can become intolerable to fight against your own conscience, principles and beliefs.

Or you can become more eclectic and in a way design your own religion/beliefs, just be yourself, you will always be guided to knowledge, if that is what you seek, or a decent pub, if thats what you seek, such is life.

I hope that makes sense, if it doesnt dont worry, I was guided to my local tonight, and the guinness was well good.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot

No definition or proof for what god is exists. I think I will rest on that comftorably.

That Facebook group is bang on the money, I reckon .

A few Bible quotes describing God

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-definition-god.htm

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot

It's dizzying, really. I think part of the problem is I want a definate belief system so I can stop all this stuff as a hobby and get onto other things, but the more your read the more there is to read.

I was almost trapped into virtually each one of the major world religions at least once over the past few years, simply because I wanted a stable base.

They are all bullshit of course. It's not that easy.

if you have not already I think you would genuinely love The Brothers Karamazov
by Dostoyevsky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brothers_Karamazov

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Tom

A few Bible quotes describing God

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-definition-god.htm

Does everyone believe in The Bible? No. Come on man, you can't use The Bible of all books to try and define what god is. Fookin hell. There is no universally accepted definition of god. He wouldn't be much of a mystery, otherwise.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if you have not already I think you would genuinely love The Brothers Karamazov
by Dostoyevsky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brothers_Karamazov

Aye it's great .

[Crimson Dynamo]

You cant not believe in the Bible as it is there in front of you. The Bible is 66 books, found in most good bookstores. In terms of historical manuscripts it is pretty much the best, by miles, we have.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot

Does everyone believe in The Bible? No. Come on man, you can't use The Bible of all books to try and define what god is. Fookin hell. There is no universally accepted definition of god. He wouldn't be much of a mystery, otherwise.

Aye it's great .

Most of what we know about religion comes from the bible. If you're going to reject one bit, you have to reject the lot. You can't just pick and choose which bits are relevant and which bits aren't just to suit your own argument.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Tom

Most of what we know about religion comes from the bible. If you're going to reject one bit, you have to reject the lot. You can't just pick and choose which bits are relevant and which bits aren't just to suit your own argument.

Who said I was talking about picking and choosing bits from The Bible?

All I am saying is there is no definition for God. There's just not. It's a pointless argument. It's something the world will never know nor never agree on. God could be anything or anyone. It's pointless trying to define it.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot

Who said I was talking about picking and choosing bits from The Bible?

All I am saying is there is no definition for God. There's just not. It's a pointless argument. It's something the world will never know nor never agree on. God could be anything or anyone. It's pointless trying to define it.

The Bible does give definitions of God, its just that they're varying and open to massive fundamental flaws, thats what all of the confusion is over, not the definitions themselves.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Tom

Most of what we know about religion comes from the bible. If you're going to reject one bit, you have to reject the lot. You can't just pick and choose which bits are relevant and which bits aren't just to suit your own argument.

No thats just not true, most of what you know about the Christian religion you have gleamed from the bible, unfortunately the Christian bible bears little knowledge of other religions, and would simply be used as a doorstep by some other religions.

I take it you have not even heard of the Tripitaka( tipitaka in parli) or the Sutras(Buddhism) The Tanach/Tanech (Torah, the Nevi'im and the Ketuvim) of the Jews. The Suhuf Ibrahim, the Qu'ran, Injil Zabur and Tawrat of Islam. The Vedas, Upanishads, Manusmriti, Srimad Bhagvatam, Bhagwad Geeta (Hindu). The Guru Granth Sahib of the Seikhs. Some great reads there, lots of wisdom, i can recommend them.

As for picking and choosing which bits of the bible are relevant, isnt that why the Proddy one has 66 books and the papist one has 72 books. Eastern Greek Orthodox Bibles have even more.



.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shasown

No thats just not true, most of what you know about the Christian religion you have gleamed from the bible, unfortunately the Christian bible bears little knowledge of other religions, and would simply be used as a doorstep by some other religions.

I take it you have not even heard of the Tripitaka( tipitaka in parli) or the Sutras(Buddhism) The Tanach/Tanech (Torah, the Nevi'im and the Ketuvim) of the Jews. The Suhuf Ibrahim, the Qu'ran, Injil Zabur and Tawrat of Islam. The Vedas, Upanishads, Manusmriti, Srimad Bhagvatam, Bhagwad Geeta (Hindu). The Guru Granth Sahib of the Seikhs. Some great reads there, lots of wisdom, i can recommend them.

As for picking and choosing which bits of the bible are relevant, isnt that why the Proddy one has 66 books and the papist one has 72 books. Eastern Greek Orthodox Bibles have even more.

My understanding of this thread is that of the Christian God, so other religions are irrelevant. Of course the Christian Bible isn't going to reference other religions! Its also a well known fact that Protestantism is selective Catholicism dating back to Henry VIII, thats why there are differences in the two books. Christianity derives from the Bible, without it Christianity probably wouldn't exist. Of course there are things to do with the religion outside of that, but the vast majority is in the Bible, or a lot of things which is used as 'evidence' is somehow tied in with the Bible. Its completely silly to dismiss it.

FYI, yes I have heard of the other scriptures you have mentioned.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Tom

My understanding of this thread is that of the Christian God, so other religions are irrelevant. Of course the Christian Bible isn't going to reference other religions! Its also a well known fact that Protestantism is selective Catholicism dating back to Henry VIII, thats why there are differences in the two books. Christianity derives from the Bible, without it Christianity probably wouldn't exist. Of course there are things to do with the religion outside of that, but the vast majority is in the Bible, or a lot of things which is used as 'evidence' is somehow tied in with the Bible. Its completely silly to dismiss it.

FYI, yes I have heard of the other scriptures you have mentioned.

The title of the thread and the discussion contained therein actually do not in any way limit it only to the Christian view of God. Unless of course you are actually reading a different thread than the rest of us.

It may be well known but that doesnt make it true, thats Anglicanism, the protestant Reformation was started in Europe by Martin Luther, in 1517, 12 years before Henry's split with Rome

If you want to call the bible evidence as to the proof of the existance of God, on you go but I do pity any defendant on trial when you are a jury member.

Incidentally scrolling back through the thread it was actually you who brought up the Bible itself and started to limit the discussion to the Christian view of God in post #57

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shasown

The title of the thread and the discussion contained therein actually do not in any way limit it only to the Christian view of God. Unless of course you are actually reading a different thread than the rest of us.

If you want to call the bible evidence as to the proof of the existance of God, on you go but I do pity any defendant on trial when you are a jury member.

Incidentally scrolling back through the thread it was actually you who brought up the Bible itself and started to limit the discussion to the Christian view of God in post #57

On a British forum, I think its fair to assume we're on about the Christian God. The bible definition is the closest we get to defining God, you can't disprove something you don't know the definition of, hence I brought the Bible into it.

I'm not using the Bible as proof for the existence of God, merely a description. I also don't believe in God so its kind of hard to argue against your own beliefs, but its always good for people to see the opposing arguments.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Tom

On a British forum, I think its fair to assume we're on about the Christian God. The bible definition is the closest we get to defining God, you can't disprove something you don't know the definition of, hence I brought the Bible into it.

I'm not using the Bible as proof for the existence of God, merely a description. I also don't believe in God so its kind of hard to argue against your own beliefs, but its always good for people to see the opposing arguments.

I would have thought reading the actual thread would have removed the need to make assumptions like that.

Theres an old saying may help you in life: Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I would have thought reading the actual thread would have removed the need to make assumptions like that.

Theres an old saying may help you in life: Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

Nowhere in the thread does it say the thread is about all religion and all gods. Looks like you're just making assumptions too

[Shasown]

Read through the thread and explain where the thread is limited to the Christian view of God, in fact if you do read through it you will find the views are definately not of the christian view of god, simply the existance, proven or disproven though science.

[Tom]

I didn't say it was limited, that was my own interpretation of it and thats the point I was putting across. The other posts are very general, not including any other religions which doesn't make it ridiculous just to stick to the Christian view of God.

... and people call me picky in arguments.

[Shasown]

Could I refer you to post #59, then your response in #61 Judas asked if everyone believed in the bible, your response was

Most of what we know about religion comes from the bible. If you're going to reject one bit, you have to reject the lot. You can't just pick and choose which bits are relevant and which bits aren't just to suit your own argument

Total pap there are many forms of religion and each have their own definations of God, you however decide to limit the definations of God to what you are familiar with and assume everyone has the same restricted knowledge.

Hence the correction I introduced.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Could I refer you to post #59, then your response in #61 Judas asked if everyone believed in the bible, your response was


Total pap there are many forms of religion and each have their own definations of God, you however decide to limit the definations of God to what you are familiar with and assume everyone has the same restricted knowledge.

Hence the correction I introduced.

oh god, so now you're trawling back through the thread and picking up on everything to try and attempt to prove me wrong on a pure pedantic level. In the context its quite clear I meant about Christianity, not religion as a whole. Thats 2 completely different kettle of fish. But 2 religions can't co-exist if one is right and they're all separate. So you have to isolate each one anyway.

Please enlighten me, what knowledge of Christianity do we have that doesn't in some way tie into the Bible?