[Z]

I think it was wrong to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. It's sad enough when incidents like Chernobyl and Fukushima irreversibly damage the environment, leave areas uninhabitable, cause pollution and affect thousands of lives; without turning that disaster prone technology into a weaponised form used to punish innocent civilians who weren't hurting anyone. Evil is not hardwired into an entire nation's psyche from birth, evil actions are learned from people in charge teaching their subordinates; war brings the worst out in armies because of how desperate and frustrating wars are.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Zee

I think it was wrong to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. It's sad enough when incidents like Chernobyl and Fukushima irreversibly damage the environment, leave areas uninhabitable, cause pollution and affect thousands of lives; without turning that disaster prone technology into a weaponised form used to punish innocent civilians who weren't hurting anyone. Evil is not hardwired into an entire nation's psyche from birth, evil actions are learned from people in charge teaching their subordinates; war brings the worst out in armies because of how desperate and frustrating wars are.

are you actually comparing nuclear power accidents to the worst war in human history?

i don't see how they comparable. accidents at power plants providing power for millions of homes, compared to dropping bombs on a nation that was trying to murder millions of lives...

not the same thing at all.

[Z]

Originally Posted by lostalex

are you actually comparing nuclear power accidents to the worst war in human history?

i don't see how they comparable. accidents at power plants providing power for millions of homes, compared to dripping bombs in nations that were trying to murder millions of lives...

not the same thing at all.

No Alex, I'm not, and you know I'm not.

[Tom4784]

I don't think it's fair to paint all of Japan as monsters, just like with Germany there were likely a large section of Japanese society that didn't agree to what was going on but didn't have the means to do anything about it. If we were put in the same situation we'd most likely go along with whatever just to save ourselves, it's easy to judge the citizens of Japan or Germany but we've never lived under the kinds of governments that they did during the war.

A lot of armies committed atrocities in WW2 because each side was demonised and the soldiers on all sides were lead to believe that the enemy was less than human. War brings out the worst in people. It definitely brought out the worst in America, the dropping of the atomic bombs were one of the worst atrocities of WW2 and innocent people are still suffering from it today. There was no excuse for it, Japan was on their way to surredering anyway. It was just a cruel attack against Japan's civillians.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't think it's fair to paint all of Japan as monsters, just like with Germany there were likely a large section of Japanese society that didn't agree to what was going on but didn't have the means to do anything about it. If we were put in the same situation we'd most likely go along with whatever just to save ourselves, it's easy to judge the citizens of Japan or Germany but we've never lived under the kinds of governments that they did during the war.

A lot of armies committed atrocities in WW2 because each side was demonised and the soldiers on all sides were lead to believe that the enemy was less than human. War brings out the worst in people. It definitely brought out the worst in America, the dropping of the atomic bombs were one of the worst atrocities of WW2 and innocent people are still suffering from it today. There was no excuse for it, Japan was on their way to surredering anyway. It was just a cruel attack against Japan's civillians.

Well ...let's just hope Japan never gets into a warlike posture again and has a War with Britain which we lose and the Japanese become our occupiers..

You might have reason to change the tone of your post...

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Well ...let's just hope Japan never gets into a warlike posture again and has a War with Britain which we lose and the Japanese become our occupiers..

You might have reason to change the tone of your post...

You could say that about any country.

It doesn't make economic sense of Japan to go to war with anyone, they would gain nothing from it. No point in painting Japan as a boogeyman when there isn't any danger of them going to war with us. How many Japanese products do we use in our day to day lives? How many TVs, Mobiles, consoles, tablets etc come from Japan? Why would they go to war with one of their biggest consumers?

Your 'point' is illogical. There is as much chance of Japan starting a war with us as Germany suddenly deciding to don the Nazi colours again and try to finish what they started, both are extremely unlikely.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You could say that about any country.

It doesn't make economic sense of Japan to go to war with anyone, they would gain nothing from it. No point in painting Japan as a boogeyman when there isn't any danger of them going to war with us. How many Japanese products do we use in our day to day lives? How many TVs, Mobiles, consoles, tablets etc come from Japan? Why would they go to war with one of their biggest consumers?

Your 'point' is illogical. There is as much chance of Japan starting a war with us as Germany suddenly deciding to don the Nazi colours again and try to finish what they started, both are extremely unlikely.

I know....I know.....Calm down !!!! I was talking Hypothetically, I know currently Japan doesn't pose a serious threat to the UK or NATO or any Superpower..

My point was that I'm glad they don't pose a threat because I for one, based on their strange philosophy that being taken a prisoner makes you unfit to be treated as a human being and subsequently fair game for mis-treatment abuse,rape,torture an death.....would not want to be around if they were to become our conquerers.....

I would prefer to take my chances with the German armed forces any day

[lostalex]

You guys are just attacking the idea of generalizations in general. You are being too meta.

You are dissecting the idea of talking about Japan, instead of talking about Japan.

Well what do you actually want to say about Japan? I'm pretty sure we're all happy to discuss them, and I'm sure none of us would have issues discussing any unsavoury aspects of their past, but the issue here is that we wouldn't assign those actions to the fact they were Japanese.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Well what do you actually want to say about Japan? I'm pretty sure we're all happy to discuss them, and I'm sure none of us would have issues discussing any unsavoury aspects of their past, but the issue here is that we wouldn't assign those actions to the fact they were Japanese.

no one was ever talking about every single japanese person that ever existed though, so why did you start talking about every single japnaese person?

I don't hate japnese people.

I have a sim that looks a little japanese and i love him almost just as much as my other sims.

[Z]

Well then what are you actually saying Alex?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Zee

Well then what are you actually saying Alex?

Scots really don't get irony.

[Z]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Scots really don't get irony.

I don't think Americans do either.................

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Zee

I don't think Americans do either.................

yea, that's why it's ironic that i said that... you just proved my point.

[Z]

Originally Posted by lostalex

yea, that's why it's ironic that i said that... you just proved my point.

You're ridiculous, never change

[Z]

Sorta relevant to the thread, maybe not, but Japan I believe is the most ethnically homogenous country in the world, something like 98-99% of the people who live in Japan are ethnically Japanese

[arista]

Originally Posted by Zee

Sorta relevant to the thread, maybe not, but Japan I believe is the most ethnically homogenous country in the world, something like 98-99% of the people who live in Japan are ethnically Japanese

Yes they had the power to takeover China
before World War 2 started

[Livia]

The cruelty of the Japanese, although not literally hard-wired into their DNA, was hard-wired into their psyche. Their actions were as a result of hundreds of years of their culture. No one's surely going to dispute that. But we must not accuse them of cruelty, and when they refused to apologise to the few remaining survivors even after all that time, we said, okay. Hirohito, who was emperor of Japan when they were starving, beating, working and torturing our prisoners to death, died an old man, still emperor, comfortable in his own bed... and we say, okay. And yet... the BBC make one joke about Hiroshima and they're summoned to the Japanese embassy where they demanded the BBC apologise... and they DID!

We are required to forgive and forget. We're required to see the good in people now. However, it seems we're still required to continue to beat ourselves up over our colonialist past, a past way before anyone alive now. Forget he German and Japanese atrocities, committed within the living memory of some. But continue to be contrite about our own past. This country gave my family a home after the war when they arrived here broken and penniless, but the face of Britain people still wish to expose is the colonising aristocracy of a time gone by.

Forgive the Germans and the Japanese by all means. But never forget what they were once capable of.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

The cruelty of the Japanese, although not literally hard-wired into their DNA, was hard-wired into their psyche. Their actions were as a result of hundreds of years of their culture. No one's surely going to dispute that. But we must not accuse them of cruelty, and when they refused to apologise to the few remaining survivors even after all that time, we said, okay. Hirohito, who was emperor of Japan when they were starving, beating, working and torturing our prisoners to death, died an old man, still emperor, comfortable in his own bed... and we say, okay. And yet... the BBC make one joke about Hiroshima and they're summoned to the Japanese embassy where they demanded the BBC apologise... and they DID!

We are required to forgive and forget. We're required to see the good in people now. However, it seems we're still required to continue to beat ourselves up over our colonialist past, a past way before anyone alive now. Forget he German and Japanese atrocities, committed within the living memory of some. But continue to be contrite about our own past. This country gave my family a home after the war when they arrived here broken and penniless, but the face of Britain people still wish to expose is the colonising aristocracy of a time gone by.

Forgive the Germans and the Japanese by all means. But never forget what they were once capable of.

But would we be any different if we lived under the same government as they did back then? I don't think we would be. We would be the same, just doing what we can in fear of our lives.

I also don't think any country was innocent when it came to cruelty in WW2, like I said before we demonised them as much as they demonised us. I doubt we treated PoWs any better but since we were the victors I'm guessing such cases were glossed over when it came to the history books.

Either way nothing justifies Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the bombing of cities is cowardly and the willful murder of civilians is the ultimate cowardice, especially considering that Japan was on the ropes. We played a part in killing thousands of civilians and damning generations of innocent people yet to be born to crippling illnesses and disease. Nothing justifies that response and it's no surprise that we're apologetic to Japan to this day over it. How many government and Army officials that would have been behind Pearl Harbour and the torturing of prisoners were in those cities compared to innocent civilians?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But would we be any different if we lived under the same government as they did back then? I don't think we would be. We would be the same, just doing what we can in fear of our lives.

I also don't think any country was innocent when it came to cruelty in WW2, like I said before we demonised them as much as they demonised us. I doubt we treated PoWs any better but since we were the victors I'm guessing such cases were glossed over when it came to the history books.

Either way nothing justifies Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the bombing of cities is cowardly and the willful murder of civilians is the ultimate cowardice, especially considering that Japan was on the ropes. We played a part in killing thousands of civilians and damning generations of innocent people yet to be born to crippling illnesses and disease. Nothing justifies that response and it's no surprise that we're apologetic to Japan to this day over it. How many government and Army officials that would have been behind Pearl Harbour and the torturing of prisoners were in those cities compared to innocent civilians?

but countries did behave differently in WW2, and it's not fair to say that we're all the same, because we aren't all the same, and we weren't back then either.

I don't understand why some people keep insisting that we were. All countries were not all the same, Some countries behaved horribly, like awfully, and horrifically, and other countries did not reach the same levels of depravity. Why are some people trying to re0write history and say we are all equal?

Sorry, but no, not all countries are equal. Some countries are worse than others. We are not all equal.

And saying that all countries are equal or capable of the same things is denying that some countries behaved more admirally than others, and it's not fair to take away the fact that some countries did show more bravery and behaved with more dignity and were more admirable than others.

I think it's disgraceful to say that the USA or UK was just as capable of being as horrible as Japan and Germany. We weren't and we aren't.

It's basically saying we only did the right thing by CHANCE, and that any country could have been as evil.


No. It wasn't by chance. We did the right thing because that's who we are, and we deserve credit for that.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by lostalex

but countries did behave differently in WW2, and it's not fair to say that we're all the same, because we aren't all the same, and we weren't back then either.

I don't understand why some people keep insisting that we were. All countries were not all the same, Some countries behaved horribly, like awfully, and horrifically, and other countries did not reach the same levels of depravity. Why are some people trying to re0write history and say we are all equal?

Sorry, but no, not all countries are equal. Some countries are worse than others. We are not all equal.

And saying tat all countries are equal or capable of the same things is denying that some countries behaved more admirally than others, and it's not fair to take away the fact that some cow tries did show more bravery and behaved with more dignity and were more admirable than others.

I think it's disgraceful to say that the USA or UK was just as capable of being as horrible as Japan and Germany. We weren't and we aren't.

What we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not admirable, honourable, brave or dignified. It was pathetic, cruel and cowardly. It was a complete atrocity. Japan wasn't innocent either but what's worse? The torturing of PoW's or the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children plus causing mass biolgical ailments for generations to come? Japan did some terrible things but what we did to those two cities can never be justified.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

What we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not admirable, honourable, brave or dignified. It was pathetic, cruel and cowardly. It was a complete atrocity. Japan wasn't innocent either but what's worse? The torturing of PoW's or the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children plus causing mass biolgical ailments for generations to come? Japan did some terrible things but what we did to those two cities can never be justified.

It was NOT cowardly to save 1 million American lives by putting an END to that HORRIBLE WAR!

how dare you.

1 Million Amwrican lives or even 1 more would have been a WASTE on a war that we didn't start and we didn't want but we DAMN SURE WERE GOING TO END!

We wanted an END TO IT!

and don't you dare call any soldier or airman a COWARD for wanting an end to it. America sacrificed FAR MORE than its share of sons in that war. SO don't you dare say we were cowards. America was NEVER cowardly in that war, and you only have breath in your lungs BECAUSE of those American lives that died for you. Americans died for your survival, how dare you say we were the cowards.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

What we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not admirable, honourable, brave or dignified. It was pathetic, cruel and cowardly. It was a complete atrocity. Japan wasn't innocent either but what's worse? The torturing of PoW's or the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children plus causing mass biolgical ailments for generations to come? Japan did some terrible things but what we did to those two cities can never be justified.

No one's saying nuclear weapons are the way to go. But you should remember that this came at the end of five years of war. Britain was almost on its knees... and it wasn't just POWs the Japanese tortured and killed, which is why I suggest you should look more into it. I think that if they knew then what we know now about the bombs they dropped, it would have been different. But it's okay to say that in hindsight. At the time, we and the other allies, were desperate for a solution.

Trying to apportion blame is futile. However, I am proud of Great Britain's actions in WW2, given the length of time they'd been fighting and the cost to the country both financially and in terms of lives. And I say that as the child of holocaust survivors who happen to be German, and not Japanese. But it's the same meat and different gravy to me. Something had to be done about Germany and Japan or the world as we know it today would be very different.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But would we be any different if we lived under the same government as they did back then? I don't think we would be. We would be the same, just doing what we can in fear of our lives.

I also don't think any country was innocent when it came to cruelty in WW2, like I said before we demonised them as much as they demonised us. I doubt we treated PoWs any better but since we were the victors I'm guessing such cases were glossed over when it came to the history books.

Either way nothing justifies Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the bombing of cities is cowardly and the willful murder of civilians is the ultimate cowardice, especially considering that Japan was on the ropes. We played a part in killing thousands of civilians and damning generations of innocent people yet to be born to crippling illnesses and disease. Nothing justifies that response and it's no surprise that we're apologetic to Japan to this day over it. How many government and Army officials that would have been behind Pearl Harbour and the torturing of prisoners were in those cities compared to innocent civilians?

You're very wrong to compare the British treatment of prisoners to the treatment meted out by Germany and especially Japan.

You forget how many millions of civilians suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis and the Japanese. And not just suffered and died... were tortured, or worked to death, then shot when they were no longer needed. Women, children, treated like animals. I don't condone the use of nuclear weapons, but I truly believe in this case, it was for the greater good. And had the Japanese - or the Germans - had nuclear weapons, do you think they would have hesitated for one minute to use them against us?

Really Dezzy, I respect you very much, you know that. But I have to say you need to look into the actions that led to Hiroshima. Unless you feel that the only humans that are worth anything are Japanese.

And before you say we're right to be apologetic to the Japanese, please... take some time to read some prisoners' accounts of their life under the Japanese. How these men, mostly dead now, woke up screaming night after night, remembering the horrors they saw and were put through. And then we can talk more if you want. But right now, I don't feel like you are in charge of all the facts.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

You're very wrong to compare the British treatment of prisoners to the treatment meted out by Germany and especially Japan.

You forget how many millions of civilians suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis and the Japanese. And not just suffered and died... were tortured, or worked to death, then shot when they were no longer needed. Women, children, treated like animals. I don't condone the use of nuclear weapons, but I truly believe in this case, it was for the greater good. And had the Japanese - or the Germans - had nuclear weapons, do you think they would have hesitated for one minute to use them against us?

Really Dezzy, I respect you very much, you know that. But I have to say you need to look into the actions that led to Hiroshima. Unless you feel that the only humans that are worth anything are Japanese.

And before you say we're right to be apologetic to the Japanese, please... take some time to read some prisoners' accounts of their life under the Japanese. How these men, mostly dead now, woke up screaming night after night, remembering the horrors they saw and were put through. And then we can talk more if you want. But right now, I don't feel like you are in charge of all the facts.

We could argue about the ifs and buts all night but at the end of the day, we had the atomic weapons, they didn't and we chose to use them when we were already winning. We could have won without them, we didn't need to harm two cities full of innocent people and damn their children to lives filled with suffering and pain.

How would you feel if you or your family was maimed and/or killed for no other reason than because your government went to war with a country with Atomic Weapons? You wouldn't get any say in the matter but you'd pay the price for it anyway. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the price of their government's actions for no other reasons than where they lived.

Nothing can ever justify going after civilians in my eyes, it's just pathetic. Hell, those bombs killed PoWs too.... What we did to those innocent people is beyond justification.