[Z]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

NHS abortions are regularly carried out up to 16 weeks because of waiting times. And yes, there is a MASSIVE difference between a 12 week old fetus and 16 weeks. But again, to suggest that that's the reality of a large number of abortions is another deliberately constructed lie.

I'll admit, comparing an early fetus before the development of brain function and the central nervous system to a newborn is sensationalist. But at 16 weeks, it really isnt at all. The only logical difference is that a newborn is bigger and doesn't live in a womb. An inconvenient truth? Probably.

I have far less problem with very early abortions (essentially, forced early miscarriage) but again... This is not the reality of a large number of abortions.

You made a really good point earlier in the thread that most women won't necessarily realise they're pregnant until they've missed their period... and that's if they're even paying attention, you get all sorts of weird anomalies during pregnancy, I know a girl who claimed she kept getting her period during her pregnancy (she knew she was pregnant and wanted the baby, mind you) - so yeah, the chances are by the time you know you're pregnant and you've booked yourself in for an abortion, that foetus has grown significantly...

[Nedusa]

The CatholicChurch don't allow abortion under any circumstances as they view life as being life from the moment of conception.

The fact that at that point it is just a collection of cells with no discernable form certainly no brain or consciousness doesn't seem to matter to the religious nutcases who probably consider every sperm is sacred...........

What about if I only support the death penalty for pregnant mothers?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

What about if I only support the death penalty for pregnant mothers?

You get double points for that, you'd be way ahead in the Death League

****** yeah.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

People can't have abortions after a specified number of weeks. I think I'm right in saying it's 12 weeks, unless there is a threat to the health of the mother and/or child and then it can be extended to 20 weeks, with longer if there are extenuating circumstances. All this comparing a fetus to a newborn child is dramatic nonsense. What's more... I reckon if it was men who got pregnant, gave birth and then cared for that child for the next 18 years, abortion would have been legalised centuries ago.

Aah Livia, you sort of take me back to a statement my Grandmother used to say and that was if men had the babies there would be one child likely per family and no more. I used to smile at that.

I don't like abortion, I would not say for any woman that it was wrong to have one.
As you say, there are controls too as to when they can be done. So although I don't accept it,it has to be in some cases an option for the woman.

As to the death penalty, I have always gone back and forth as to this issue, I would hate for anyone to have to be given it but I do think especially where there is no remorse and especically for multiple killings, clearly life in prison is no deterrent and that in at least a small few cases it would be wholly justifiable as Kazanne also said in an esrlier post.

Answering as far as I could as to the OP,I could likely not be persuaded to vote against abortion being an option as you said in the constraints of the law at present.

I could however likely be persuaded to support the death penalty in some cases of murder.
A recent one from last year being a prime example for me.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

The fact that at that point it is just a collection of cells with no discernable form certainly no brain or consciousness doesn't seem to matter to the religious nutcases who probably consider every sperm is sacred...........

At the point of conception it is and theres very little reason to reject abortion before around 6 weeks, as many pregnancies actually fail before that point without anyone even realising. However, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the "bundle of cells" rhetoric for 12+ weeks when many abortions take place is simply false. Completely false. A 12+ week old fetus is no more a "bundle of cells" than you are... It looks like a fully grown baby, just on a smaller scale. They have reflexes, they kick, can even be shown to suck their thumb. They have a developed central nervous system and they feel pain.

If someone told you that all abortions are simply flushing out a bundle of cells, then they were lying to you. It's that simple.

[thesheriff443]

should more be done in third world countries to stop women getting pregnant and children being born, only for those children to suffer and die of starvation before the age of one!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

should more be done in third world countries to stop women getting pregnant and children being born, only for those children to suffer and die of starvation before the age of one!

The major issue there is a lack of education, the availability of contraceptives, and of course, religious leaders telling the population not to use contraception when it is available.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Are there any ironies for a society that accepts abortion but abhors the death penalty?

I dont believe in either. But I agree , there is an element of contradiction....we dont want to kill 1 single mass murderers, but we kill millions of innocent babies ...you are right to draw this distinction...we are not a very intelligent country and we do not look at the overall picture nor do we oin up all the dots....we are far far far too easy going about the record levels of mass abortions...its around 1 million babies aborted every 6 years. (160,000+ per year) we are amongst the highest abortion rates in europe and the world. parents who are struggling with health and finances or lacking education or support. clearly do not get enough support ,nor advice as the the relevant options open to them. is there a support system in place for example for parents struggling so badly they could have a respite place they could leave their new born baby. or a shorterm term, fostering or adoption option ...on a seperate matter the issue of smoking in pregnancy has to be targetted far greater, personally id outlaw it. smoking kills babies in wombs and cuts off their oxygen supply for starters.

many more babies survive very well at 22 weeks these days...many [parents complain after abortions they felt rushed confused and didnt feel they were given time and advice or support on their options if they chose to let the baby live. sadly this incredibly emotional, difficult , complex issue has again been hijacked by the ruthless mindlessness of radical feminism. this should never ever be a feminist issue. its far far bigger than that.

its an issue about what sort of nhs we want, what ssort of support structure we can be bothered to build, how much time and money we spend on people in these difficult situations. its also about the mother and the father and the brothers and sisters and grandparents and extended family and friends. its about what kind of society we want to live in. collaboration is always the key to a better tomorrow. but most of all its about that innocent precious beautiful new born baby at least getting the chance to draw breath, a chance to dream, to play, to love and to live

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I actually think most people's support of abortion hinges on an inherent misunderstanding of the abortion process; that it is clean, quick and clinical. They believe the "bundle of cells" rhetoric which in fact only applies to very early stage abortions. Later stage surgical abortions, are effing barbaric. They follow one of two scenarios; either the baby is removed whole, in which case it can live (kicking, trying to breathe, making little noises) for several minutes after removal. It's an ethical minefield for the abortionist to physically kill it, so they tend to just be put in a surgical tray with a cloth over them and allowed to slowly die.

Late abortions tend to only be done when there is a serious risk to the mothers health though, or massive problems with the child. You cant chose to have a late abortion, and the huge majority are done within the first few weeks of pregnancy.. ( http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortio...t-be-done.aspx )

However I think the limit should be lowered a LOT. Its extremely unlikely someone wouldnt know that they were pregnant by like..6 weeks or so. I think the date for 'choice' should be then. However medical complications should be set later..as you dont tend to find serious problems until your 12 week scan.

In answer to the OP, I think they are two totally different things. So yeah, opposing views on both do make sense really.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Late abortions tend to only be done when there is a serious risk to the mothers health though, or massive problems with the child. You cant chose to have a late abortion, and the huge majority are done within the first few weeks of pregnancy.. ( http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortio...t-be-done.aspx )

However I think the limit should be lowered a LOT. Its extremely unlikely someone wouldnt know that they were pregnant by like..6 weeks or so. I think the date for 'choice' should be then. However medical complications should be set later..as you dont tend to find serious problems until your 12 week scan.

In answer to the OP, I think they are two totally different things. So yeah, opposing views on both do make sense really.

I'm not massively convinced by the 90% stat for a start, especially with the increasing NHS cuts, the waiting list for an abortion can be 6+ weeks. So that's 6+ weeks on top of how long it takes to realise that you're pregnant (usually at least 5 weeks) plus a week of "thinking time" (and doesn't it deserve more than that anyway?) and you're already at 12+ weeks. Some people don't realise they're pregnant until 8 or 9 weeks, and so NHS abortions of healthy babies can and do regularly take place at 15 or 16 weeks.

In my opinion, if we MUST have the abortion of healthy pregnancies as a possibility, there should be a hard cap of 9 weeks. Up until that point, the "bundle of cells" excuse is just about valid. A combination of the NHS cutting the wait time to as close to zero as possible plus better education for the identification of pregnancy symptoms should be able to achieve that. And if people miss that cut off... well, **** happens - they can consider adoption or maybe even consider just doing the responsible thing, and be a parent to their "mistake". Like you said, very few people wouldn't notice a pregnancy by 6 weeks, and 3 weeks from then until a final cut off should be enough. 9 weeks is also the latest date at which simple medical abortion (using pills to trigger miscarriage) is possible and that should be the ONLY legal form of healthy-baby abortion. Surgical abortions should be strictly for medical reasons only.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

You cant chose to have a late abortion

You actually can choose to abort in the UK at any time up until 24 weeks. For reference, this is a picture of a live premature baby (that went on to be healthy) at 23 weeks:




I've actually read a statement by a teenage girl who chose to have an abortion at 21 weeks and wasn't even told that she would have to stillbirth the baby. The account is harrowing, and she is utterly traumatised. This is why at the very least, people need to be properly informed of the realities of abortion, and the "bundle of cells" nonsense needs to be clarified.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not massively convinced by the 90% stat for a start, especially with the increasing NHS cuts, the waiting list for an abortion can be 6+ weeks. So that's 6+ weeks on top of how long it takes to realise that you're pregnant (usually at least 5 weeks) plus a week of "thinking time" (and doesn't it deserve more than that anyway?) and you're already at 12+ weeks. Some people don't realise they're pregnant until 8 or 9 weeks, and so NHS abortions of healthy babies can and do regularly take place at 15 or 16 weeks.

In my opinion, if we MUST have the abortion of healthy pregnancies as a possibility, there should be a hard cap of 9 weeks. Up until that point, the "bundle of cells" excuse is just about valid. A combination of the NHS cutting the wait time to as close to zero as possible plus better education for the identification of pregnancy symptoms should be able to achieve that. And if people miss that cut off... well, **** happens - they can consider adoption or maybe even consider just doing the responsible thing, and be a parent to their "mistake". Like you said, very few people wouldn't notice a pregnancy by 6 weeks, and 3 weeks from then until a final cut off should be enough. 9 weeks is also the latest date at which simple medical abortion (using pills to trigger miscarriage) is possible and that should be the ONLY legal form of healthy-baby abortion. Surgical abortions should be strictly for medical reasons only.

Really? That seems mental..

I actually had a termination (very early one, was about 5 weeks) at 16 year old and from the moment I was offered one, to getting there there was about a weeks wait. Mind I think more resources should be available to check its the correct decision. The day I took my first pill the psychiatrist person who was supposed to check I was sure wasnt even in and they gave me it anyway. I think I posted my story on here before somewhere..but yeah. I dont understand why anyone would put themselves in the position to go through that twice or more, I really don't. It is a ****ing horrific and very painful experience, even early on.

Agree 100% with the bolded bit.

Edit. Found my post.. http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru...8&postcount=75 . Quite graphic detail of what happens during an (early) abortion so don't read if squeamish or likely to get offended :/

[Firewire]

As a male, I feel like my opinion on abortion isn't important but I'm heavily against the death penalty.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You actually can choose to abort in the UK at any time up until 24 weeks. For reference, this is a picture of a live premature baby (that went on to be healthy) at 23 weeks:




I've actually read a statement by a teenage girl who chose to have an abortion at 21 weeks and wasn't even told that she would have to stillbirth the baby. The account is harrowing, and she is utterly traumatised. This is why at the very least, people need to be properly informed of the realities of abortion, and the "bundle of cells" nonsense needs to be clarified.

I honestly didnt know that, and why the hell would anyone chose to do that. The bundle of cells thing is obviously not right in that case. Hell from 12 weeks onwards (and earlier too really..) its clearly a baby, I have 2 scan pics to prove that

The limit should definitely be lowered..babies are surviving younger and younger. I personally know someone who had a kid at 22 weeks and he is alive now, a healthy 5 year old.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Firewire

As a male, I feel like my opinion on abortion isn't important but I'm heavily against the death penalty.

why doesnt your opinion matter over the deaths of millions of babies?

[lostalex]

I support abortion because i believe that until the fetus or baby or whatever you want to call it, is able to survive outside of the woman's womb, then it is part of her body, a parasite, a tumor. And along as it's part of her body she should have the right to do whatever she wants to her body as long as she's not mentally ill.

I am against the death penalty because i don't believe there is any such thing as an infallible justice system in the world,. and every system of justice in the world get's it wrong sometimes. I'm not against the death penalty for moral reasons, i do think it is morally sound to punish the most heinous crimes with death, but i don't think our justice systems are good enough to be 100% sure in 100% of the cases, so in order to err on the side of caution, we shouldn't be using the death penalty. If we had an infallible justice system, i would support the death penalty, but we don't.

[lostalex]

Did you know that 1 out of every 4 pregnancies ends in a miscarriage? So even if you are religious, clearly your God believes in abortion, he's doing it a lot. If God doesn't believe in abortion, why are there so many miscarriages?

http://www.hopexchange.com/Statistics.htm

NHS says 1 out of 5 for the UK. That's still a lot.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/miscarr...roduction.aspx

[Livia]

Wow... there is some scary made-up stuff in this thread.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Did you know that 1 out of every 4 pregnancies ends in a miscarriage? So even if you are religious, clearly your God believes in abortion, he's doing it a lot. If God doesn't believe in abortion, why are there so many miscarriages?

http://www.hopexchange.com/Statistics.htm

NHS says 1 out of 5 for the UK. That's still a lot.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/miscarr...roduction.aspx

It's fairly recently been discovered that the majority of miscarriages occur because there is something wrong with the embryo that means it simply is not viable - I.e. it would die anyway or be severely deformed.

So, if you happened to be religious (I personally am not) you could argue that God supports (performs?) Abortions when there is a problem with the embryo, but not when the development is healthy.

Of course, the religion skeptic in me automatically jumps to: "If god exists, why would he create defective embryos in the first place?"

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's fairly recently been discovered that the majority of miscarriages occur because there is something wrong with the embryo that means it simply is not viable - I.e. it would die anyway or be severely deformed.

So, if you happened to be religious (I personally am not) you could argue that God supports (performs?) Abortions when there is a problem with the embryo, but not when the development is healthy.

Of course, the religion skeptic in me automatically jumps to: "If god exists, why would he create defective embryos in the first place?"

Even religious people don't think that it's garbage...

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

The CatholicChurch don't allow abortion under any circumstances as they view life as being life from the moment of conception.

The fact that at that point it is just a collection of cells with no discernable form certainly no brain or consciousness doesn't seem to matter to the religious nutcases who probably consider every sperm is sacred...........

maybe thats better than the athistic feminist nutters who dont give a damn about seeing millions of healthy babies aborted several months into pregancy

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]

Aah Livia, you sort of take me back to a statement my Grandmother used to say and that was if men had the babies there would be one child likely per family and no more. I used to smile at that.

I don't like abortion, I would not say for any woman that it was wrong to have one.
As you say, there are controls too as to when they can be done. So although I don't accept it has to be in some cases an option for the woman.

As to the death penalty, I have always gone back and forth as to this issue, I would hate for anyone to have to be given it but I do think espeically where there is no remorse and espeically for multiple killings, clearly life in prison is no deterrent and that in at least a small few cases it would be wholly justifiable as Kazanne also said in an esrlier post.

Answering as far as I could as to the OP,I could likely not be persuaded to vote against abortion being an option as you said in the constraints of the law at present.

I could however likely be persuaded to support the death penalty in some cases of murder.
A recent one from last year being a prime example for me.

the most sexist posit in history

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I support abortion because i believe that until the fetus or baby or whatever you want to call it, is able to survive outside of the woman's womb, then it is part of her body, a parasite, a tumor. And along as it's part of her body she should have the right to do whatever she wants to her body as long as she's not mentally ill.

I am against the death penalty because i don't believe there is any such thing as an infallible justice system in the world,. and every system of justice in the world get's it wrong sometimes. I'm not against the death penalty for moral reasons, i do think it is morally sound to punish the most heinous crimes with death, but i don't think our justice systems are good enough to be 100% sure in 100% of the cases, so in order to err on the side of caution, we shouldn't be using the death penalty. If we had an infallible justice system, i would support the death penalty, but we don't.

so how do you estimate when the baby will survive?