[arista]

"Cape Town Parliament in 1887"


Its Fecking 2015 now Kizzy


Everyone has said keep our History
You are crazy to say take it down

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

"Cape Town Parliament in 1887"


Its Fecking 2015 now Kizzy


Everyone has said keep our History
You are crazy to say take it down

Who's everyone...
If everyone was saying keep it there would be no issue would there?

I quoted his words, in this instance actions don't speak louder, they reveal the truth behind a legacy.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Who's everyone...
If everyone was saying keep it there would be no issue would there?

I quoted his words, in this instance actions don't speak louder, they reveal the truth behind a legacy.

Everyone Knows he was Evil towards Blacks
BUT no one wants the statue down - but You



Thats what ISIS do remove all History

Shocking

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Everyone Knows he was Evil towards Blacks
BUT no one wants the statue down - but You



Thats what ISIS do remove all History

Shocking

That's not strictly true is it?

The Jon Snow soundbite isn't gospel Arista.
'Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.'

[lostalex]

I doubt it is only black students demanding it be taken down.

[arista]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I doubt it is only black students demanding it be taken down.

Correct


But the trouble maker upstart
Young Black Student is the Leader,


Sorry I did not write his name down
as what he said was crazy


we need our History on Display


The BBC even Educate kids with
Horrible History

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by arista

Correct


But the trouble maker upstart
Young Black Student is the Leader,


Sorry I did not write his name down
as what he said was crazy


we need our History on Display


The BBC even Educate kids with
Horrible History

I agree if you erased all people who did something great, but also had horrible views, you would have no statues.

Einstein was a known misogynist. Ghandi was a known racist who specifically called for all blacks to go back to africa. Nelson mandela advocated and participated in violence. All of the founding fathers were racist. Michael jackson had inappropriate relationships with children.

[arista]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I agree if you erased all people who did something great, but also had horrible views, you would have no statues.

Einstein was a known misogynist. Ghandi was a known racist who specifically called for all blacks to go back to africa. Nelson mandela advocated and participated in violence. All of the founding fathers were racist. Michael jackson had inappropriate relationships with children.

Yes Alex
if only Kizzy could see what
everyone else is saying


Sign Of The Times

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes Alex
if only Kizzy could see what
everyone else is saying


Sign Of The Times

If only Kizzy thought like everyone else..... I thank god every day I don't Arista!



Sign Of The Times
#thoughtpolice

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Correct


But the trouble maker upstart
Young Black Student is the Leader,


Sorry I did not write his name down
as what he said was crazy


we need our History on Display


The BBC even Educate kids with
Horrible History

We do yes, but horrible histories don't sugar coat the truth that's why it's horrible, because some actions, ethics and laws were in our 'civilised' times abhorrant...
As were the views and actions of Mr Rhodes, regardless of the contents of his will.

If we were to imagine for a second the plight of south Africans in the 19th century and not the conscience easing financial aspect it gives a different perspective.

'We know little about the lives of ordinary people of these times, but archival evidence reveals glimpses of slaves’ struggles against harsh conditions imposed by their white oppressors. Krotoa (known to the Dutch settlers as “Eva”) was a Khoi woman caught in the identity crisis of colonization: used by Dutch leader Jan van Riebeeck as an interpreter against her own people in the mid-1600s, she married a European but was rejected by white society. Sarah Baartman was taken in 1810 from Cape Town to Europe and displayed in exhibitions like an animal. Katie Jacobs, interviewed in 1910 as one of the last surviving ex-slaves, told of her harsh life, of a master who even refused to baptize her. Inhuman treatment sometimes led to resistance. For example, the slave woman Dina escaped during the Boers’ (or Afrikaners') Great Trek of the 1830s. In another instance in 1825, after suffering repeated floggings, Galant van der Caab, a slave on a farm northeast of Cape Town, led a small-scale revolt of slaves. Eventually, Great Britain pronounced the emancipation of slaves in the Cape Colony in 1833, but slavery was replaced by draconian Master and Servant laws that preserved a social hierarchy in which race closely corresponded to class.'

http://overcomingapartheid.msu.edu/unit.php?id=65-24E-2

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

We do yes, but horrible histories don't sugar coat the truth that's why it's horrible, because some actions, ethics and laws were in our 'civilised' times abhorrant...
As were the views and actions of Mr Rhodes, regardless of the contents of his will.

If we were to imagine for a second the plight of south Africans in the 19th century and not the conscience easing financial aspect it gives a different perspective.

'We know little about the lives of ordinary people of these times, but archival evidence reveals glimpses of slaves’ struggles against harsh conditions imposed by their white oppressors. Krotoa (known to the Dutch settlers as “Eva”) was a Khoi woman caught in the identity crisis of colonization: used by Dutch leader Jan van Riebeeck as an interpreter against her own people in the mid-1600s, she married a European but was rejected by white society. Sarah Baartman was taken in 1810 from Cape Town to Europe and displayed in exhibitions like an animal. Katie Jacobs, interviewed in 1910 as one of the last surviving ex-slaves, told of her harsh life, of a master who even refused to baptize her. Inhuman treatment sometimes led to resistance. For example, the slave woman Dina escaped during the Boers’ (or Afrikaners') Great Trek of the 1830s. In another instance in 1825, after suffering repeated floggings, Galant van der Caab, a slave on a farm northeast of Cape Town, led a small-scale revolt of slaves. Eventually, Great Britain pronounced the emancipation of slaves in the Cape Colony in 1833, but slavery was replaced by draconian Master and Servant laws that preserved a social hierarchy in which race closely corresponded to class.'

http://overcomingapartheid.msu.edu/unit.php?id=65-24E-2

Why don't you try to imagine the plight of poor people in the UK during that time, people who didn't profit at all from the Empire and were in fact living in what was the richest country in the world. A subject often overlooked... And at the same time bear in mind that the period being referred to is well over a hundred years ago and as we know, the past is a different country where things were done differently. Also bear in mind that it was good, decent white people who ended the slave trade because black people had no power at all.

Good luck with replacing all the statues with people from history you consider to be worthy and "good".

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Why don't you try to imagine the plight of poor people in the UK during that time, people who didn't profit at all from the Empire and were in fact living in what was the richest country in the world. A subject often overlooked... And at the same time bear in mind that the period being referred to is well over a hundred years ago and as we know, the past is a different country where things were done differently. Also bear in mind that it was good, decent white people who ended the slave trade because black people had no power at all.

Good luck with replacing all the statues with people from history you consider to be worthy and "good".

I'll just comment on the topic at hand if it's all the same Liv.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

We do yes, but horrible histories don't sugar coat the truth that's why it's horrible, because some actions, ethics and laws were in our 'civilised' times abhorrant...
As were the views and actions of Mr Rhodes, regardless of the contents of his will.

If we were to imagine for a second the plight of south Africans in the 19th century and not the conscience easing financial aspect it gives a different perspective.

'We know little about the lives of ordinary people of these times, but archival evidence reveals glimpses of slaves’ struggles against harsh conditions imposed by their white oppressors. Krotoa (known to the Dutch settlers as “Eva”) was a Khoi woman caught in the identity crisis of colonization: used by Dutch leader Jan van Riebeeck as an interpreter against her own people in the mid-1600s, she married a European but was rejected by white society. Sarah Baartman was taken in 1810 from Cape Town to Europe and displayed in exhibitions like an animal. Katie Jacobs, interviewed in 1910 as one of the last surviving ex-slaves, told of her harsh life, of a master who even refused to baptize her. Inhuman treatment sometimes led to resistance. For example, the slave woman Dina escaped during the Boers’ (or Afrikaners') Great Trek of the 1830s. In another instance in 1825, after suffering repeated floggings, Galant van der Caab, a slave on a farm northeast of Cape Town, led a small-scale revolt of slaves. Eventually, Great Britain pronounced the emancipation of slaves in the Cape Colony in 1833, but slavery was replaced by draconian Master and Servant laws that preserved a social hierarchy in which race closely corresponded to class.'

http://overcomingapartheid.msu.edu/unit.php?id=65-24E-2

Well, to be fair, Cecil John Rhodes was born in 1853, a good 20 years after the emancipation of slaves in the Cape Colony, and after the draconian Master and Servant laws.
Something it appears he can't be blamed for, unless of course we are rewriting history

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by NanaChristmas

Well, to be fair, Cecil John Rhodes was born in 1853, a good 20 years after the emancipation of slaves in the Cape Colony, and after the draconian Master and Servant laws.
Something it appears he can't be blamed for, unless of course we are rewriting history

his amendment of the Masters and Servants Act (1890) reintroduced conditions of torture for black labourers; his infamous racist “land grabs” set up a system in which the unlawful and illegitimate acquisition of land through armed force was routine.
Rhodes despised democracy. In 1887 he told the House of Assembly in Cape Town: “The native is to be treated as a child and denied the franchise. We must adopt a system of despotism in our relations with the barbarians of South Africa.” His 1892 Franchise and Ballot Act effectively eliminated African voting rights. He repeatedly reminded his colleagues of the “extreme caution” they must exercise when it comes to “granting the franchise to coloured people.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...is-crimes.html

[arista]

"If we were to imagine for a second the plight of South Africans in the 19th century"

It was the same in America
at that early period.



I bought "Roots" on double sides DVDs

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by arista

"If we were to imagine for a second the plight of South Africans in the 19th century"

It was the same in America
at that early period.



I bought "Roots" on double sides DVDs

Kizzy is trying to whip you into saying Toby!

[arista]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Kizzy is trying to whip you into saying Toby!

I can take a Whip
but who is Toby?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by arista

I can take a Whip
but who is Toby?

I guess you haven't watched Roots yet...

Spoiler:

****a Kinte

(wow, TiBB actually censors the name of the main character of Roots lol)

[bots]

War is commemorated through statues throughout the world. Which ever way you look at it, one side or other is going to be pissed about it. Does that mean they shouldn't exist? I don't think so.

Nelson wasn't exactly Mr Nice to everyone, yet we have a huge statue to him. Kings and Queens in our history were not always the nicest, fairest monarchs yet they are commemorated as part of our history. Should we now remove all palaces that they built, destroy their statues and erase them from history?

The whole point is to remember the good and the bad. This statue has prompted discussion and debate. It allows re-affirmation of what is right and what is wrong. Destroy the statue and the whole discussion is lost.

[Kizzy]

History is being re written, he is lauded as a saint due to his 'charitable' posthumous work... and it just wasn't the case was it?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

History is being re written, he is lauded as a saint due to his 'charitable' posthumous work... and it just wasn't the case was it?

No thats a Viewpoint


I do not get Political on this.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

No thats a Viewpoint


I do not get Political on this.

Yes it's my viewpoint :/
You did agree with the stance that opposition to the statue were ISIS like, is that your political, moral or ethical view?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

History is being re written, he is lauded as a saint due to his 'charitable' posthumous work... and it just wasn't the case was it?

And yet everyone on here knows that he had a questionable record, despite his charitable work. It's not only you who knows, you know. Everyone knows. And most people understand that a man who died that long ago would have been a creature of his time and not of ours.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

And yet everyone on here knows that he had a questionable record, despite his charitable work. It's not only you who knows, you know. Everyone knows. And most people understand that a man who died that long ago would have been a creature of his time and not of ours.

Not really as we abolished all slavery in 1833, he had to travel to south Africa to continue the exploitation.
I'm not interested in what is or isn't known by whom on the subject, I'm just presenting my take on the issue.

[Livia]

Great post, Richard.