[Kizzy]

Who suggested they should know who had guests?... They would however know who were the tenants/residents, if we are to factor in guests should there not be an over estimate not an under estimate though? :/

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who suggested they should know who had guests?... They would however know who were the tenants/residents, if we are to factor in guests should there not be an over estimate not an under estimate though? :/

If I illegally sublet my purchased council flat which I should be living in myself am I going to alert the council? If I let someone not on the tenancy sleep on my sofa for a year am I going to alert the council, in your world Kizzy everyone is above board in their dealings apart from the government

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

If I illegally sublet my purchased council flat which I should be living in myself am I going to alert the council? If I let someone not on the tenancy sleep on my sofa for a year am I going to alert the council, in your world Kizzy everyone is above board in their dealings apart from the government

Your hypothetical has little to do with the original issue..even if it wasn't ( for the sake of your scenario) the flat owners in residence someone undoubtedly WAS in residence.

What has this to do with how many are said to have died, why are you essentially accusing victims of such dishonesty without evidence?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Your hypothetical has little to do with the original issue..even if it wasn't ( for the sake of your scenario) the flat owners in residence someone undoubtedly WAS in residence.

What has this to do with how many are said to have died, why are you essentially accusing victims of such dishonesty without evidence?

I'm doing nothing of the sort, I'm trying to explain to you why it's not as simple as you seem to think it is to pull out a list of residents, and then to confirm who was there or not there on the night. If you can't accept that it is not a straight forward procedure that's your problem

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm doing nothing of the sort, I'm trying to explain to you why it's not as simple as you seem to think it is to pull out a list of residents, and then to confirm who was there or not there on the night. If you can't accept that it is not a straight forward procedure that's your problem

This to do with my original point that the building housed almost 600 people... You have gone to extraordinary lengths for whatever reason to suggest I'm wrong on that.
I appreciate that you don't share my view that the death toll from the fire/ inhalation of fumes/ falls from windows is higher than reported thus far.

[the truth]

The cladding is the problem and its been applied illegally across the whole country in loads of councils , labour tory and others. Yes you can say the cutbacks to the public services should be discussed but would that have made a difference here to a 26 storey building with combustible cladding and one staircase and no sprinklers either?

Clearly we all know now every tower must have 2 staircases , sprinklers and none of this cladding

But to play the blame game from one party to another is a dangerous one here. I think corbyn is right to argue for more police and more firemen/women. But he and others must understand 1) How to pay for it and 2) How to reduce the insane waste of public resources across every council in the country which could also save billions

Councils and politicians simply do not work well enough together, the system is a hell of a mess, communication breakdowns everywhere, roads dug up endlessly, departments not communicating to one another, its all just so mindless...if anyone is to blame its the system itself

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by the truth

The cladding is the problem and its been applied illegally across the whole country in loads of councils , labour tory and others. Yes you can say the cutbacks to the public services should be discussed but would that have made a difference here to a 26 storey building with combustible cladding and one staircase and no sprinklers either?

Clearly we all know now every tower must have 2 staircases , sprinklers and none of this cladding

But to play the blame game from one party to another is a dangerous one here. I think corbyn is right to argue for more police and more firemen/women. But he and others must understand 1) How to pay for it and 2) How to reduce the insane waste of public resources across every council in the country which could also save billions

Councils and politicians simply do not work well enough together, the system is a hell of a mess, communication breakdowns everywhere, roads dug up endlessly, departments not communicating to one another, its all just so mindless...if anyone is to blame its the system itself

I think that you've probably said what I've been thinking for the most part anyway.

[jaxie]

I think all the quibbling over numbers is tasteless. To be blunt, and it makes me feel sick to think about it because it's awful, if the fire is hot enough there won't be any remains but ashes. Not even teeth or bone. It's going to take months to find out exactly how many bodies there are.

There is no way for anyone to know how many people were in the flats that night apart from the numbers of those reported missing and there might have been people in there that haven't even been reported missing yet for many different reasons. Such as no one knowing they were there, or people whose family live in another country etc.

To blame anyone (gov, fire brigade, police, council) for not knowing all the numbers and facts within a couple of weeks of the fire is ridiculous. How can they possibly know until an investigation is completed?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think all the quibbling over numbers is tasteless. To be blunt, and it makes me feel sick to think about it because it's awful, if the fire is hot enough there won't be any remains but ashes. Not even teeth or bone. It's going to take months to find out exactly how many bodies there are.

There is no way for anyone to know how many people were in the flats that night apart from the numbers of those reported missing and there might have been people in there that haven't even been reported missing yet for many different reasons. Such as no one knowing they were there, or people whose family live in another country etc.

To blame anyone (gov, fire brigade, police, council) for not knowing all the numbers and facts within a couple of weeks of the fire is ridiculous. How can they possibly know until an investigation is completed?

Agreed - it's just a cheap and tasteless excuse to attack the Government and invent a whole host of conspiracy theories.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think all the quibbling over numbers is tasteless. To be blunt, and it makes me feel sick to think about it because it's awful, if the fire is hot enough there won't be any remains but ashes. Not even teeth or bone. It's going to take months to find out exactly how many bodies there are.

There is no way for anyone to know how many people were in the flats that night apart from the numbers of those reported missing and there might have been people in there that haven't even been reported missing yet for many different reasons. Such as no one knowing they were there, or people whose family live in another country etc.

To blame anyone (gov, fire brigade, police, council) for not knowing all the numbers and facts within a couple of weeks of the fire is ridiculous. How can they possibly know until an investigation is completed?

Numbers?..... These are people! :/

I am not the only person querying why the body tally was estimated so low initially or why there was not a more joined up response to account for the residents.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Numbers?..... These are people! :/

I am not the only person querying why the body tally was estimated so low initially or why there was not a more joined up response to account for the residents.

And I'm not the one talking numbers and tallies.

Since my post wasn't a response or quote of you I see no reason for you to assume it's all about you.

[Kizzy]

Not the residents but better than nothing..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-about-fire

[Kizzy]

Whether is was or wasn't is irrelevant, I chose to make a point based on my opinion on it.

I objected to the suggestion there was quibbling over 'numbers', personally I would have liked to have seen the council offer something as to the tenants and residents registered to Grenfell.
The lack of a response and subsequent media blackout of council meeting suggests to me they have something to hide.

[jaxie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40465399

Shocking!

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by jaxie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40465399

Shocking!

I would be worried about more than the cladding.
What about the insulation and the air chimney?
They would have been better off just painting the outside and spending the money on improving the inside of the flats.

[Vicky.]

Apparently councils are not to get any funding to fix these death traps. So they have to find a lot of money from already stretched budgets :/ So cutting corners elsewhere no doubt

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Apparently councils are not to get any funding to fix these death traps. So they have to find a lot of money from already stretched budgets :/ So cutting corners elsewhere no doubt

I do think councils waste a lot of money Vicky,for example the council in charge of the area I live, post glossy monthly magazines full of adverts etc, cardboard flyers every month about the council ,wrapped in cellophane and glossy calendars every year sent to 1000s of residents, I've noticed they have had all their vans painted with illustrations on the side,all which must cost 1000s of pounds, which is unnecessary imo,I would guess all councils do this and people I talk to are annoyed as they don't bother with repairs like they should,so ,I do think the money they have,they waste.

[Vicky.]

Oh yes councils do waste money. But even so, I think something like this should be properly funded tbh. Not all councils will have such waste and may not be able to fin d the funds to actually sort this problem without cutting corners elsewhere which could lead to another scandal in a few years time. I am of the opinion that lives and safety matter more than money tbh.

[Tom4784]

Better to spend money bribing the DUP than it is to make sure that these buildings are safe to live in, it's only the working class that live there after all...

[Alf]

Bored of this now, it was weeks ago.

There's still people who were hit by floods in Cumbria two years ago, that are still out of home, thankfully they're not still barking on about that everyday on the national news.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

Bored of this now, it was weeks ago.

There's still people who were hit by floods in Cumbria two years ago, that are still out of home, thankfully they're not still barking on about that everyday on the national news.

Then go start a thread for them maybe?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Then go start a thread for them maybe?

What's the point, when I can just post here?

It's not my problem that you don't like me criticising the national news. I'm quite happy to do it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

What's the point, when I can just post here?

It's not my problem that you don't like me criticising the national news. I'm quite happy to do it.

I don't blame Corbyn for politicising the issue, some have a very short attention span, your boredom shows there is a small window to ensure enough sympathy for the victims to muster support for them in the fight to get justice.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Alf

Bored of this now, it was weeks ago.

There's still people who were hit by floods in Cumbria two years ago, that are still out of home, thankfully they're not still barking on about that everyday on the national news.

It was a terrible, terrible tradegy and every victim who survived and was an official resident in the tower should be rehoused locally in decent housing. I do however feel being given houses worth millions as a permanent home is perhaps a step too far.

Whilst Victims should also be financially compensated for loss of their belongings and the psychological suffering they have endured - being given a permanent residence of such value does feel like blood money - and I don't feel is an appropriate way to deal with such a tragedy.

As you say many other people have suffered such loses previously but this terrible incident is being used as a political tool to attack the government by many - including some of the victims and local residents in my opinion.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It was a terrible, terrible tradegy and every victim who survived and was an official resident in the tower should be rehoused locally in decent housing. I do however feel being given houses worth millions as a permanent home is perhaps a step too far.

Whilst Victims should also be financially compensated for loss of their belongings and the psychological suffering they have endured - being given a permanent residence of such value does feel like blood money - and I don't feel is an appropriate way to deal with such a tragedy.

As you say many other people have suffered such loses previously but this terrible incident is being used as a political tool to attack the government by many - including some of the victims and local residents in my opinion.

My problem is just with the media, and the constant coverage they give the families to tell us how angry they are, when they wouldn't give the families of the kids blown to pieces the time of day, if they were/are angry. I wonder why that is?

There's an inquiry into this, let it take it's course.