[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's not scripturally informed, true, but it's part of islamic culture.

On the African continent but not in the Middle East. Voodooism is also a big part of African culture.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree, we should stop calling it Islamophobia and start calling it what it is.

Racism.

But you're not a big fan of that one either, are you Brillo? In fact, it seems like you would like to "ban" any "negative sounding" word from being used to describe people who like to spout hatred about Muslims. I wonder why that is?

I strongly agree.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You clearly read up on its evilness all the time because every time you find something you deem a little juicy, you bring it here to 'shove it down our throats'.

That's the point though - I don't have to find something as it is there on the news, in the papers, on our streets - everywhere. It is not a quiet, discreet religion that just gets on with life. It throws its weight around and constantly seeks attention.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I strongly agree.

So you don't get the difference between the two.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

No, its not out there any more than Judism or Christianity. Its only 'out there' on here where you continually bring up the subject of this religion so you can demonize it. You constantly try to ram its evils down our throats.

Do the cultures surrounding Christianity and Judaism currently cause comparable issues, and are people called bigots or racist for opposing them?

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

On the African continent but not in the Middle East.

You can't definitive say not in the middle east when it's present in Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I did read it. When did I say I didn't? More of the usual hysterical assumptions from you in a desperate attempt to undermine me.

The opinions of minories are still only opinions, not fact. And even if some employers are hesitant to employ Muslims it would be very convenient to lay the blame solely at the feet of the employer as the religion has so many codes of behaviour and dress. I would imagine not many employers would be too keen to have women turning up for work in a burkha for instance or workers requiring several paid prayer breaks throughout the day and a room to use as a prayer room.

I can't see many Muslim employers choosing a non-Muslim over a Muslim if equally qualified. Employers often state they want someone who will fit it. Employees also expect to have to adhere to certain dress codes. It's called the real world.

I don't think you did read it. I think you saw the headline and went from there.

You really seem to struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions unless it's signposted to you don't you? The article that you pretended to read is what's called an 'Opinion Piece' everything presented within it was an opinion HOWEVER the writer used facts and figures to qualify their opinion and back up their thoughts. She didn't say 'this is my opinion and it is FACT!' She essentially said 'This is my opinion and here are the statistics to back it up'. You really need to learn the difference between a fact and opinion and you need to learn to spot it, people shouldn't have to signpost the fact that their opinions are actually opinions for your benefit. You should be able to tell instantly.

If an employer chose not to employ someone who was suited for the role because of their religion, that's called discrimination. Do I need to explain what that is to you too?

You....You don't have much experience of interacting with Muslims in a work place, do you? (or in general, I bet). I've worked with plenty in my time, I've hired a few. I do the Rotas at my current job and the only thing I've ever been asked is if they can swap their days off for Eid or, failing that, if they can use their holiday days for it which is no different to anyone of any religion asking for a day off for their holidays. I think you think that Burkhas are really common too but they aren't. If a muslim woman chooses to wear a scarf (there's two currently at my store and only one of them does) then they'll more often than not opt to wear a Hijab.

I've never worked with anyone who has paid prayer breaks of any religion, never mind having a special prayer room to do it in. I think this is just another irrational argument to try to justify what is discrimination against Muslims in the work place.

If a Muslim employer refused to employ people because they weren't muslim then that would be discrimination too and an unlikely hypothetical situation does not justify you basically saying that discriminating against Muslims in the work place is okay.

I'd advise you try to learn more about what actual muslims are like, your hatred of them is built upon a Daily Mail inspired image of them that simply does not reflect the majority. You have a real hatred based on what is an imaginary and not at all realistic image of an average muslim. It's sad really, all irrational hatreds and prejudices are.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't think you did read it. I think you saw the headline and went from there.

You really seem to struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions unless it's signposted to you don't you? The article that you pretended to read is what's called an 'Opinion Piece' everything presented within it was an opinion HOWEVER the writer used facts and figures to qualify their opinion and back up their thoughts. She didn't say 'this is my opinion and it is FACT!' She essentially said 'This is my opinion and here are the statistics to back it up'. You really need to learn the difference between a fact and opinion and you need to learn to spot it, people shouldn't have to signpost the fact that their opinions are actually opinions for your benefit. You should be able to tell instantly.

If an employer chose not to employ someone who was suited for the role because of their religion, that's called discrimination. Do I need to explain what that is to you too?

You....You don't have much experience of interacting with Muslims in a work place, do you? (or in general, I bet). I've worked with plenty in my time, I've hired a few. I do the Rotas at my current job and the only thing I've ever been asked is if they can swap their days off for Eid or, failing that, if they can use their holiday days for it which is no different to anyone of any religion asking for a day off for their holidays. I think you think that Burkhas are really common too but they aren't. If a muslim woman chooses to wear a scarf (there's two currently at my store and only one of them does) then they'll more often than not opt to wear a Hijab.

I've never worked with anyone who has paid prayer breaks of any religion, never mind having a special prayer room to do it in. I think this is just another irrational argument to try to justify what is discrimination against Muslims in the work place.

If a Muslim employer refused to employ people because they weren't muslim then that would be discrimination too and an unlikely hypothetical situation does not justify you basically saying that discriminating against Muslims in the work place is okay.

I'd advise you try to learn more about what actual muslims are like, your hatred of them is built upon a Daily Mail inspired image of them that simply does not reflect the majority. You have a real hatred based on what is an imaginary and not at all realistic image of an average muslim. It's sad really, all irrational hatreds and prejudices are.

You can think what you like but I read it so stop making a show of yourself accusing me of not reading it when you can't possibly know that. Frankly I don't believe you have employed anyone. Just my thoughts!

People discriminate against people for all sorts of reasons but most don't get protection written into laws. Good luck trying to prove someone had not got a job based on discrimination. It could just as easily be claimed someone had got the job based on 'positive discrimination, or based on fear of being accused of discrimination which is not he way we should go. People should get jobs based on merit and nothing else. If you have 'hired a few' you should be aware of the issues with prayer breaks - I suggest you read up on it.

Hate seems to be a word you have a lot of affinity with so maybe a bit of self-reflection would be the way to go.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

People discriminate against people for all sorts of reasons but most don't get protection written into laws.

Erm... yes they do.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Erm... yes they do.

Really. What about fat people, ugly people, short people - the list is endless.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You can think what you like but I read it so stop making a show of yourself accusing me of not reading it when you can't possibly know that. Frankly I don't believe you have employed anyone. Just my thoughts!

People discriminate against people for all sorts of reasons but most don't get protection written into laws. Good luck trying to prove someone had not got a job based on discrimination. It could just as easily be claimed someone had got the job based on 'positive discrimination, or based on fear of being accused of discrimination which is not he way we should go. People should get jobs based on merit and nothing else. If you have 'hired a few' you should be aware of the issues with prayer breaks - I suggest you read up on it.

Hate seems to be a word you have a lot of affinity with so maybe a bit of self-reflection would be the way to go.

Weak parroted jibes from a racist will never offend me.

Protections are there for everyone, Brillo. If you knew the first thing you were talking about when it came to discrimination laws then you would understand that. Again, the hypothetical situation you suggested is just another weak attempt at justification for the fact that you think it should be okay for people to be discriminated against in the workplace because they are muslim.

When have I said that people shouldn't be hired on merit? I've only hired people on merit, it's also a bit strange for you to make that point when you were suggesting that if a muslim doesn't get hired on the grounds that they are a muslim that it's their fault for being a muslim? Which one is it? Do you hire based on merit or based on religious and racial preference? You can't champion both when it suits you.

You keep speaking of articles because you don't have any actual experience of interacting with muslims, you let Buzzfeed and the alt right websites you stumble across on google inform your opinion because the reality that muslims are no different to anyone else doesn't fit well with your confirmation bias.

I've worked with many muslims and I have muslim friends and I've never known any of them to demand extra breaks or special treatment on the grounds of their religion. I'll take my actual experiences to be more indicative of the average muslim in a workplace over the fantasies presented by alt right websites to attract the clicks of racists.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Weak parroted jibes from a racist will never offend me.

Protections are there for everyone, Brillo. If you knew the first thing you were talking about when it came to discrimination laws then you would understand that. Again, the hypothetical situation you suggested is just another weak attempt at justification for the fact that you think it should be okay for people to be discriminated against in the workplace because they are muslim.

When have I said that people shouldn't be hired on merit? I've only hired people on merit, it's also a bit strange for you to make that point when you were suggesting that if a muslim doesn't get hired on the grounds that they are a muslim that it's their fault for being a muslim? Which one is it? Do you hire based on merit or based on religious and racial preference? You can't champion both when it suits you.

You keep speaking of articles because you don't have any actual experience of interacting with muslims, you let Buzzfeed and the alt right websites you stumble across on google inform your opinion because the reality that muslims are no different to anyone else doesn't fit well with your confirmation bias.

I've worked with many muslims and I have muslim friends and I've never known any of them to demand extra breaks or special treatment on the grounds of their religion. I'll take my actual experiences to be more indicative of the average muslim in a workplace over the fantasies presented by alt right websites to attract the clicks of racists.

I work in a hospital. There are plenty of Muslims, but thankfully no Burkhas. Common sense does sometimes prevail.

I don't go on alt right websites - I just quote from current news articles that come up. If a few of them happen to be alt-right so be it. Unless I google about them first I don't generally know they are Alt-right websites unless I have come across them before - you really do need to curb that paranoia of yours.

I also suggest you look up the meanings of racist, Islamophobia and xenophobic - they are all different and only one is directly related to race! To accuse people of racism without actual evidence is not a good look, amongst other things.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That's the point though - I don't have to find something as it is there on the news, in the papers, on our streets - everywhere. It is not a quiet, discreet religion that just gets on with life. It throws its weight around and constantly seeks attention.

Its there in your news feed but not in mine. Just means we have very different news sources.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Do the cultures surrounding Christianity and Judaism currently cause comparable issues, and are people called bigots or racist for opposing them?

Yes

You can't definitive say not in the middle east when it's present in Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

Only in the most remote uncivilized tribes. In civilized society and there's a lot of civilized society in Kuwait and SA (not so much in Iraq anymore because we turned that into a dust bowl) people who use FGM are looked down on as ignorant peasants.

In Africa its still a big problem but in the ME and Arabic regions its dying out.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I also suggest you look up the meanings of racist, Islamophobia and xenophobic - they are all different and only one is directly related to race! To accuse people of racism without actual evidence is not a good look, amongst other things.

They do all have different meanings Brillo but, to be brutally blunt here, you've been guilty of all three at various times on this forum. In terms of evidence... Well... There's your post history always only a few clicks away.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They do all have different meanings Brillo but, to be brutally blunt here, you've been guilty of all three at various times on this forum. In terms of evidence... Well... There's your post history always only a few clicks away.

According to interpretation perhaps but I would be surprised if I have said anything blatantly proven as racist as I don't believe I am. Intent is the key, not the way someone else perceives it.

[Marsh.]

Well, I doubt any bigot purposely sees themselves as such and believes absolutely their thoughts to be rational. That doesn't suddenly mean they're not racist or bigoted, because they personally don't believe they are.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well, I doubt any bigot purposely sees themselves as such and believes absolutely their thoughts to be rational. That doesn't suddenly mean they're not racist or bigoted, because they personally don't believe they are.

Neither does it mean they are based on someone else's viewpoint. I do believe however that some of those that do accuse others of being so do so with fore-thought.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Neither does it mean they are based on someone else's viewpoint. I do believe however that some of those that do accuse others of being so do so with fore-thought.

Well, no. Racism, sexism, ageism, any kind of discrimination is factual. There's no viewpoint about it.

If you're discriminating against someone because of a particular attribute then that is bigoted, no two ways about it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well, no. Racism, sexism, ageism, any kind of discrimination is factual. There's no viewpoint about it.

If you're discriminating against someone because of a particular attribute then that is bigoted, no two ways about it.

You miss the point- some see isms round every corner because they misinterpret or see what they want to. Interpretation is not the same as fact.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Weak parroted jibes from a racist will never offend me.

Protections are there for everyone, Brillo. If you knew the first thing you were talking about when it came to discrimination laws then you would understand that. Again, the hypothetical situation you suggested is just another weak attempt at justification for the fact that you think it should be okay for people to be discriminated against in the workplace because they are muslim.

When have I said that people shouldn't be hired on merit? I've only hired people on merit, it's also a bit strange for you to make that point when you were suggesting that if a muslim doesn't get hired on the grounds that they are a muslim that it's their fault for being a muslim? Which one is it? Do you hire based on merit or based on religious and racial preference? You can't champion both when it suits you.

You keep speaking of articles because you don't have any actual experience of interacting with muslims, you let Buzzfeed and the alt right websites you stumble across on google inform your opinion because the reality that muslims are no different to anyone else doesn't fit well with your confirmation bias.

I've worked with many muslims and I have muslim friends and I've never known any of them to demand extra breaks or special treatment on the grounds of their religion. I'll take my actual experiences to be more indicative of the average muslim in a workplace over the fantasies presented by alt right websites to attract the clicks of racists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...es/salat.shtml

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

According to interpretation perhaps but I would be surprised if I have said anything blatantly proven as racist as I don't believe I am. Intent is the key, not the way someone else perceives it.

Again in the spirit of honesty Brillo, my stance towards you has actually softened over time because I have realised that you genuinely don't realise that you're being racist or, in your case accurately, xenophobic. I think it genuinely does come from a place of real fear.

But no; intent is not key. In fact, the vast majority of racism is subconscious, so far from being "key", intent really isn't all that important at all.

Outcome is key.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again in the spirit of honesty Brillo, my stance towards you has actually softened over time because I have realised that you genuinely don't realise that you're being racist or, in your case accurately, xenophobic. I think it genuinely does come from a place of real fear.

But no; intent is not key. In fact, the vast majority of racism is subconscious, so far from being "key", intent really isn't all that important at all.

Outcome is key.

The thing is there is a thin line between outcome and perceived outcome in my opinion, as we see on here too often, when some use the word 'racism' as a tool to exert control over the thinking/behaviour of others. The word is regularly abused due to agendas.

I believe many are blurring the lines between race and religion, either consciously or sub-consciously. They are not the sane thing. Religion is, or should be, a lifestyle choice. It isn't a physical or mental entity over which we have no control. It is a choice and choice comes with responsibility. Personal choice can and should be challenged when imposed on others.

Almost every country/culture in the world wants to preserve its heritage and way of life. Britain is no exception. You can call that 'fear' if you want to, but i feel it shows a healthy respect for what one has and their value of it. Don't we all aspire to that - to value what we have and passing that to future generations.

I am not opposed to different cultures or way of lives, just that incoming religions to a country should assimilate not dominate.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You miss the point- some see isms round every corner because they misinterpret or see what they want to. Interpretation is not the same as fact.

I'm not missing the point.

Discrimination is not a misinterpretation. It either happens or it doesn't.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I'm not missing the point.

Discrimination is not a misinterpretation. It either happens or it doesn't.

Rubbish - people twist and put interpretation on things all the time- trying to label criticism of religion as racist. Total nonsence.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...es/salat.shtml

Like with any religion, most muslims won't follow it to the letter. I've never known any muslims that pray five times a day and they certainly don't set out to inconvenience people with their religion.

Keep linking these articles of islamic practices and making out that every muslim follows them, it just shows how ignorant you are of the average muslim.