[smudgie]

Difficult one.
I would say if someone believes it to be racist, sexist, homophobic then act upon it it’s wrong.
However, if someone genuinely doesn’t believe it, or understand it, they are entitled to their opinions, just as others are entitled to try and explain to them the error of their ways.

[Paula D]

As someone once said "I hate your views but I defend to the death your tight to have them".

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[Paula D]

Right I meant

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[Livia]

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

That isnt at all what the thread is about, are you baiting again

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

That isnt at all what the thread is about, are you baiting again

Baiting? AGAIN?

Seems that's the claim every time I post. Don't try to minimise my opinion, you're not the thought police yet.


It's exactly what the thread is about, whining about how someone's feelings get hurt in this country, while gay people are being thrown off roofs in the middle east.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

Baiting? AGAIN?

Seems that's the claim every time I post.

Yes pretty much. Its getting a bit much, no.

I've worked in the middle east, and central Africa before btw, and I do believe I did a lot to help exactly what you were describing. That isnt particularly revelavnt to the thread though.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

To be fair it's easier to make a stand against someone who won't make you a wedding cake, than it is a toxic culture which grips several countries.

Spoiler:

I will add I think any shop or service should have the right to deny custom to anyone for any reason, but the above was just an example

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

To be fair it's easier to make a stand against someone who won't make you a wedding cake, than it is a toxic culture which grips several countries.

Spoiler:

I will add I think any shop or service should have the right to deny custom to anyone for any reason, but the above was just an example

Yeah, I see that. But making someone into a victim because someone else hurts their feelings, only minimises the terrible, violent treatment that gays face all over the globe. Also, where's the celebration of how very far we've come as a country in the last twenty years or so. No mention of that....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, I see that. But making someone into a victim because someone else hurts their feelings, only minimises the terrible, violent treatment that gays face all over the globe. Also, where's the celebration of how very far we've come as a country in the last twenty years or so. No mention of that....

People literally celebrate that very loudly on a month+ long annual basis.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

People literally celebrate that very loudly on a month+ long annual basis.

Not a word on here though... ever.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

well said Livia

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. If someone is free to spout hate then other people should be free to denounce it, we should not decree the right to respond as 'nitpicking' and make out that people should not take offense because of the situation of the country we live in.

Why should only the hateful be allowed to speak their minds freely?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This is an example of what I'm talking about. If someone is free to spout hate then other people should be free to denounce it, we should not decree the right to respond as 'nitpicking' and make out that people should not take offense because of the situation of the country we live in.

Why should only the hateful be allowed to speak their minds freely?

Who are the hateful? Because I see much more venom and lots of insults aimed at people of faith in this country.

I have lots of gay friends, I don't know any of them who suffer being gay. Them embrace their lives, they have good careers, they're happy in their personal life... I never hear any of them moaning about homophobia, but I do hear them celebrating the fact that they can now marry in this country. I've been "best woman" at a gay wedding, it was the most joyful thing ever. Things are changing here... I'd rather be celebrating that.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Who are the hateful? Because I see much more venom and lots of insults aimed at people of faith in this country.

I have lots of gay friends, I don't know any of them who suffer being gay. Them embrace their lives, they have good careers, they're happy in their personal life... I never hear any of them moaning about homophobia, but I do hear them celebrating the fact that they can now marry in this country. I've been "best woman" at a gay wedding, it was the most joyful thing ever. Things are changing here... I'd rather be celebrating that.

Nobody is beyond criticism. If a religious person holds opinions that are inflamatory to another demographic then that demographic has as much right to respond as the former has to hold that belief and vice versa.

I criticise certain religious people (I'm not painting in broad strokes here, I know that there's a lot of religious people who have no issues with the LGBT) because I feel they use their opinions to justify their hate, I can understand that certain religious folk can't agree to gay marriage not because they are opposed to homosexuality but because they believe marriage is between a man or a woman. I also criticise people who are overly hateful towards religion because everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe in. I dislike organised religion, but I dislike it all equally so I'll often criticise people who are overly hateful towards one religion when they can't see that the problems they have with one religion have been common to all religions at some point or another.

Most people who are LGBT have lived a lot of their lives being made to feel that they are not right, that they are inherently wrong. Even after coming out, a lot of gay people won't feel comfortable showing affection towards their partner in public or talking about the issues that plague the LGBT community to somebody who isn't part of that community. LGBT people are always thinking 'hmm, how open can I really be about myself around this person? How much risk is involved?'

As a bisexual person, I feel very uncomfortable talking to both straight and gay people about troubles I've faced because I've experienced hate from both. I don't speak to many people IRL about the troubles I've faced because there's always going to be an element of distrust there, that you've got to hold things back. It's difficult to put into words how it feels but just because somebody doesn't speak of discrimination does not mean it doesn't happen.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nobody is beyond criticism. If a religious person holds opinions that are inflamatory to another demographic then that demographic has as much right to respond as the former has to hold that belief and vice versa.

I criticise certain religious people (I'm not painting in broad strokes here, I know that there's a lot of religious people who have no issues with the LGBT) because I feel they use their opinions to justify their hate, I can understand that certain religious folk can't agree to gay marriage not because they are opposed to homosexuality but because they believe marriage is between a man or a woman. I also criticise people who are overly hateful towards religion because everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe in. I dislike organised religion, but I dislike it all equally so I'll often criticise people who are overly hateful towards one religion when they can't see that the problems they have with one religion have been common to all religions at some point or another.

Most people who are LGBT have lived a lot of their lives being made to feel that they are not right, that they are inherently wrong. Even after coming out, a lot of gay people won't feel comfortable showing affection towards their partner in public or talking about the issues that plague the LGBT community to somebody who isn't part of that community. LGBT people are always thinking 'hmm, how open can I really be about myself around this person? How much risk is involved?'

As a bisexual person, I feel very uncomfortable talking to both straight and gay people about troubles I've faced because I've experienced hate from both. I don't speak to many people IRL about the troubles I've faced because there's always going to be an element of distrust there, that you've got to hold things back. It's difficult to put into words how it feels but just because somebody doesn't speak of discrimination does not mean it doesn't happen.

It's hard to argue with any of that. Thanks for sharing Dezzy... I totally get where you're coming from.

[Tom4784]

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then try to deny someone else from employing their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then try to deny someone else from employing their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

Completely agree, I was trying to get to the bottom of if that is what Withano was trying to say. Freedom of speech is a 2 way street, whichever side of the street you are on

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then take offense when someone else employs their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

How about people of faith? I mean Muslims, a large amount of Christians, about half of Jews... their faith dictates their life. Should they be "called out" because their opinion differs, even if they wish no harm to gay people? What's the most important thing? People's religious freedom or the rights of the homosexual?

[the record, I am not one of the Jews who is against homosexuality...]

Muslims in the Middle East are carrying on a reign of terror against lots of people... women, other Muslims, other faiths, homosexuals... what should we do about them? How do you change their minds?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

How about people of faith? I mean Muslims, a large amount of Christians, about half of Jews... their faith dictates their life. Should they be "called out" because their opinion differs, even if they wish no harm to gay people? What's the most important thing? People's religious freedom or the rights of the homosexual?

[the record, I am not one of the Jews who is against homosexuality...]

Muslims in the Middle East are carrying on a reign of terror against lots of people... women, other Muslims, other faiths, homosexuals... what should we do about them? How do you change their minds?

Religion isn't beyond criticism, believe in whatever faith you want but with Christians in particular (mainly because I'm more familiar with the bible so can talk from more of a position of knowledge when it comes to them), the bible is a mess of contradictions and most Christians choose what passages to follow, if someone chooses to follow passages that are anti-gay but are okay with eating shelfish or wearing mixed fabrics then I think it's as much the right of people to call it out as it is to the Christian to believe in it.

Like with Freedom of speech, people are free to believe in whatever they want and other people are free to question it.

As for your last point, nobody can change another person's mind. All we can do is oppose people who would seek to take people's rights away.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Religion isn't beyond criticism, believe in whatever faith you want but with Christians in particular (mainly because I'm more familiar with the bible so can talk from more of a position of knowledge when it comes to them), the bible is a mess of contradictions and most Christians choose what passages to follow, if someone chooses to follow passages that are anti-gay but are okay with eating shelfish or wearing mixed fabrics then I think it's as much the right of people to call it out as it is to the Christian to believe in it.

Like with Freedom of speech, people are free to believe in whatever they want and other people are free to question it.

As for your last point, nobody can change another person's mind. All we can do is oppose people who would seek to take people's rights away.

I agree, religion isn't beyond criticism. Personally I don't happen to believe in a God who would not love something he created, and he created us all. In my opinion... let's not turn this into a religious discussion.

Again in my opinion, people get so upset when someone says something hateful to them... instead of seeing the person who would speak in that way as a moron. I am not sticking up for people being hateful. I am saying, let them say what they want, it shows the world who they are. And maybe use that energy where people are really suffering.

I have a recent example... when visiting my fiancé's family in Texas, we both heard one of his relatives say how disappointed his parents must be with him bringing a Jew home. But at least I wasn't black. They said it with no humour... they were in earnest. So instead of a wedding in Texas like we were planning, we're getting married over here and only his parents are invited. The rest of them can go and f--- themselves. Their opinion of me means nothing because they're bigots.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do they have that right in today's society?

Are they allowed to feel and think a certain way, well yes, you can't police thinking. You can only try to educate people away from those views.

Should they always express those views? Well it's best to avoid things that could be upsetting to others but it's not always black and white (no pun intended) in the sense of interpretations.

For instance I have issues personally with religions in the sense that I feel that people, more specifically women, are treated in a misogynist and oppressed way by religious teachings and peoples interpretations of them. I speak out about that because I believe it is wrong. Others sometimes misinterpret that as being against a certain demographic of people. Does that mean I shouldn't speak about it? No I don't think so.

Freedom of speech means they do have an entitlement to express views, even where they are offensive or differ from others. Also if people don't speak about potentially racist views, how can you educate them because you don't know how they feel.

So a complicated question with no simple answers.

With regard the poll I've answered yes because I think people are entitled to think what they want, however offensive it is.

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

Livia's answer is probably the answer with the greatest wisdom.

[user104658]

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

Agreed

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not really something one has the "right" to be or not be... It's just something that someone is, surely? Like saying that a racist person doesn't have the right to be racist isn't going to somehow stop them from being internally racist.

If the question is "should people have the right to commit externally racist / sexist / -ist acts or discriminate on those grounds" then the answer is obviously no.

The murky part is whether or not people should have the right to benign(?)ly voice those opinions. That's the only part open to debate. For me personally... I would rather know what ugly thoughts lurk in peoples heads rather than have them pretend to be something that they're not. It's the only way you can ever assess your real opinions of a person .

Couldn't agree more.