[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Nope. Wanting women to retain words that describe them is not wanting to "strip rights" away from anyone.

It's a ridiculous changing of the goalposts used by extreme trans activists.

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

I do mention extreme trans activists who are hijacking genuine trans causes and taking them to the point where it helps no one, least of all trans people. Like I said, it's fake progress.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

Whether or not it's "reasonable", it's not extreme for women to want their single-sex spaces to be maintained.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I’m not telling anyone to sit down and shut up actually, what’s the point in a debate if it’s obvious that people don’t feel that their opinions can be challenged because it’s coming from women? That’s not how life works, speaking as a gay man who’s demographic is also still facing rights based challenges, you’re doing exactly what you’ve just accused me of doing,

No, because I'm not telling women how they should or shouldn't feel about the erosion of their rights and identity (either perceived or real, doesn't really matter) I'm just listening to and accepting/understanding how many women feel about this issue, and noting that a lot of those who are calling them out (and calling them names) for that are people who were born male; be they now cis males of whichever sexuality or transwomen.

I suspect however that, as a member of a group that has some very recent hard-fought rights and as you say, you would perhaps be a little less comfortable with it if you felt like any of those right or any aspects of that identity - which were a LONG time coming, just as they were for women - were the ones that were being asked to "make space". I don't know, ai can't speak for you there.

Other than that I have no idea how you being a gay cis male means you have more agency in talking about this than I do as a straight male? I mean if we're going to get right down to splitting hairs, as a gay male this is an issue that really has nothing AT ALL to do with you, you have far fewer chips on the table when it comes to how it affects women, whereas as someone with a female partner and two female children, how these things affect women actually have a fairly direct affect on things that are very close to home. Thus your focus is heavily biased towards "ally-related-thinking" which is fairly evident as you have a heavy focus on talking about marginalised groups and minorities. I feel that women get less sympathy on this issue than they should because they aren't one.

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

"Woman"/"Women" isn't a pronoun, it's a non-specific noun (singular/plural), and has nothing to do with pronouns, nor the preferred pronoun debate.

[Liam-]

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

Look at you parading a succession of straw men around, none of those things bear any relevance whatsoever to this discussion.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

As above, I think this is hyper-focus and selective empathy based on the minorities component of the debate. It's conflation of something that is a completely separate, and entirely different issue.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Look at you parading a succession of straw men around, none of those things bear any relevance whatsoever to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As above, I think this is hyper-focus and selective empathy based on the minorities component of the debate. It's conflation of something that is a completely separate, and entirely different issue.

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

There are multiple safeguarding and practical considerations (whether we like it or not) and - and this is really the crux of it - for the most part it's nothing to do with anyone saying a flat out "No! NO WAY!". I would take issue with those people, too. The problem is;

A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.

B) an unwillingness (that frequently veers into aggression and name calling) to even hearing women's concerns on the issue, just a stonewall

C) Branding anyone with questions or who thinks that it's a nuanced issue that needs proper assessment before proceeding as "the enemy" or "a TERF" or "hateful".

D) Black and white thinking; the options are support anything and everything that is deemed trans-equality, without a hint of scrutiny or raising any counterpoint, or be branded anti-trans.

Probably more. Boiled down though, my issue (and I believe many peoples issue) is with their being an unwillingness to have non-emotive, nuanced discussion and that seeking it is hateful. It's just extremist nonsense.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There are multiple safeguarding and practical considerations (whether we like it or not) and - and this is really the crux of it - for the most part it's nothing to do with anyone saying a flat out "No! NO WAY!". I would take issue with those people, too. The problem is;

A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.

B) an unwillingness (that frequently veers into aggression and name calling) to even hearing women's concerns on the issue, just a stonewall

C) Branding anyone with questions or who thinks that it's a nuanced issue that needs proper assessment before proceeding as "the enemy" or "a TERF" or "hateful".

D) Black and white thinking; the options are support anything and everything that is deemed trans-equality, without a hint of scrutiny or raising any counterpoint, or be branded anti-trans.

Probably more. Boiled down though, my issue (and I believe many peoples issue) is with their being an unwillingness to have non-emotive, nuanced discussion and that seeking it is hateful. It's just extremist nonsense.

Great post TS, what is most disturbing for me is that no one can raise a hand and ask ‘how does sharing spaces/sports’ which previously would have been male/female areas only work in practice, and how can we ensure that safe spaces for all women including those who are transitioning/transitioned are not open to exploitation, thats not transphobic, that’s applying logical thinking rather than waving an arm round dismissively and ignoring some vulnerabilities in the approach that any discussion is transphobic...this thread being a prime example

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

They aren't the same they are entirely seperate issues, frankly I'm surprised you of all people choose to lump all those into one generic issue!

It's whataboutism at its most basic.

This has NOTHING to do with gay rights or racism, as has been said on this thread by both straight and gay men this is not a decision that sits well with many...not only born women, if you can't see that then that reflects on you not others.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

It is very different.

Separated bathrooms tend to be separated, for obvious reasons, based on sex. Not based on sexual orientation or skin colour. It's moving the goalposts of the debate to misrepresent the opposing argument. It's ridiculous.

[Liam-]

Nowhere have I said how woman should or shouldn’t feel, I’m giving my opinion just like everyone else is, not really a fan of words being put in my mouth

[Parmy]

Some men probably do wear them for leaking bum blood...

[thesheriff443]

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

[Cherry Christmas]

The irony for me is when someone transitions the last thing they would want to be referred to is....’a person who’ ...they have travelled a long road to become a man or a woman

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

... F... For yourself?

[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

Totally different thing though to be honest

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Totally different thing though to be honest

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

[Ammi]

...just to say, Liam...I’ve read quite a few media articles about this and I often read the comments on articles as well...and there is some very, very positive stuff in support of, you know...and also some social media supporting with a few Twitter posts I’ve seen shown on differing media sites....so be encouraged by that, eh...because change in general is always a slow process, I think...

[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

...it’s one of those things that I can completely see and understand both sides of it, Annie...‘Women have fought for so long..’...is something I understand so much and have very strong thoughts about...’trans’ is just more in the earlier stages of their ‘fight’ as it were and I’m so, so, so in support of that fight...?....things like this are so important as to be felt as progression and gaining allies etc, I think...

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

Probably due to this comment in that article

“I run through a million scenarios of people staring at me, questioning me, laughing behind my back. Now I can confidently walk into a Superdrug and if anyone challenged me I could point to the packet and say "look, this is made for me".

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

That's not the issue, in any way, shape or form.

[Withano]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.