[Alf]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I can't fathom why they would NOT want a jab. There is now enough statistical information to prove that jabs lower your risk of serious illness....dealing with sick people I would like all the protection I could. Like construction workers are not allowed on site without a hard hat, steel toe caps and high vis....

It's simple, they don't believe what they're being told.

Can you fathom how the German people followed Hitler in the 1930s and into the 1940s? Can you fathom how they executed Jews without a second thought? It was through fear propaganda, similar to this.

[Candy Annie Cane]

Originally Posted by Alf

It's simple, they don't believe what they're being told.

Can you fathom how the German people followed Hitler in the 1930s and into the 1940s? Can you fathom how they executed Jews without a second thought? It was through fear propaganda, similar to this.

I'm sure a construction worker doesn't think a piece of plastic on his will stop an iron girder killing him if it fell from a crane....but he still HAS to wear a hard hat on site.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I can't fathom why they would NOT want a jab. There is now enough statistical information to prove that jabs lower your risk of serious illness....dealing with sick people I would like all the protection I could. Like construction workers are not allowed on site without a hard hat, steel toe caps and high vis....

The difference is, people see the benefits in wearing steel toe caps and Hard hats, they agree with that, and they're not injecting something into their bodies, but many, many people don't see this as logical.

[Rustic bauble]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I can't fathom why they would NOT want a jab. There is now enough statistical information to prove that jabs lower your risk of serious illness....dealing with sick people I would like all the protection I could. Like construction workers are not allowed on site without a hard hat, steel toe caps and high vis....

There is a lot of scare mongering out there....about it not being fully tested on long term effects. There was a debate on LBC the other day saying that it will have an impact on heart conditions especially in men...
Although it is not guaranteed to stop you getting the virus it is supposed to lessen your chances of being hospitalised and thats certainly true with my husband and I and my 91 year old father who has just had it with very mild symptoms....I wonder if there are any stats saying how many double jabbed people have been hospitalised or actually died...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

There is a lot of scare mongering out there....about it not being fully tested on long term effects. There was a debate on LBC the other day saying that it will have an impact on heart conditions especially in men...

The thing to remember there though is that Covid itself can have an effect on the cardiovascular system and the chances of that are far higher than with the vaccine ... so unless unvaccinated people think they can simply avoid EVER catching Covid naturally (highly unlikely, it's not going anywhere) then their increased risk of heart problems is much higher without the vaccine than with it. That's what I think some people aren't factoring in, I guess. They're weighing up "the risks of vaccines" vs "the risk of nothing at all", when it needs to be weighed against "the risk that comes with catching Covid naturally".

Basically ALL of the risks of vaccination are also risks with natural Covid ... but they're even more likely.

[Alf]

They've divided us and now they're going in for the conquer.

[Alf]

The people all over the World are protesting on mass against this and they're being ignored by the media, they're not protesting against hard hats, steel toe caps and GCSE's

Do the people rule or does the government and media rule?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

The people all over the World are protesting on mass against this and they're being ignored by the media, they're not protesting against hard hats, steel toe caps and GCSE's

Do the people rule or does the government and media rule?

The government’s mandate in a democracy is to cater to the majority not to pander to a vocal minority. Try this argument again when more than 50% of the population is anti vaccination - not 5%. They are not protesting “on mass”. They are protesting in small, loud, uninformed pockets.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The government’s mandate in a democracy is to cater to the majority not to pander to a vocal minority. Try this argument again when more than 50% of the population is anti vaccination - not 5%. They are not protesting “on mass”. They are protesting in small, loud, uninformed pockets.

I don't believe you're in the majority. Have you asked all the people that haven't even given an opinion?

Let's have a referendum on the mandates and find out. If at least 60,000 people who work in medical jobs are saying no, when you'd think they're all about health, then imagine what the rest of the 1000s of industries would add up to. You could never know because they arne't given a voice, so obviously you believe you're in the majority.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

I don't believe you're in the majority. Have you asked all the people that haven't even given an opinion?

Let's have a referendum on the mandates and find out. If at least 60,000 people who work in medical jobs are saying no, when you'd think they're all about health, that imagine what the rest of the 1000s of industries would add up to. You could never know because they arne't given a voice, so obviously you believe you're in the majority.

I’ve already said I don’t agree with mandatory vaccine for non-healthcare employment so that’s not relevant? The only relevant question is whether or not healthcare staff, specifically, should have vaccines as a job requirement.

Again though I don’t think it’s even about majority pleb opinion. If you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to enter burning buildings should still be allowed to be firefighters, then you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to be vaccinated should still be allowed to work in care settings with vulnerable people.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I’ve already said I don’t agree with mandatory vaccine for non-healthcare employment so that’s not relevant? The only relevant question is whether or not healthcare staff, specifically, should have vaccines as a job requirement.

Again though I don’t think it’s even about majority pleb opinion. If you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to enter burning buildings should still be allowed to be firefighters, then you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to be vaccinated should still be allowed to work in care settings with vulnerable people.

I don't really get your question, but I'll try and answer from how I think what you're saying.

Firefighters who don't want to enter burning buildings can tackle fires from the outside while the ones who will enter buildings go in. They could drive the truck, do investigations, and there will be other jobs that are required in the fire department that don't require they enter a building.

[user104658]

Just to be clear Alf, if a firefighter said they no longer wanted to tackle fires they’d be told to take a hike. They wouldn’t be given a desk job.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Just to be clear Alf, if a firefighter said they no longer wanted to tackle fires they’d be told to take a hike. They wouldn’t be given a desk job.

OK, I get it.

My answer again would be the same as the PPE.

Are they being made to inject something into their bodies to keep their jobs when they sign up? They know the dangers of the job when they sign up to being a firefighter, so unless when they signed up they were told that you must inject something into your body, then it's the same as the PPE argument.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

OK, I get it.

My answer again would be the same as the PPE.

Are the being made to inject something into their bodies to keep their jobs? They know the dangers of the job when they sign up to being a firefighter, so unless when they signed up they were told that you must inject something into your body, then it's the same as the PPE argument.

You’re hyperfocussed on the “inject something into their bodies” aspect. This is an irrational fear and it’s objectively far (far) less risky than entering a burins building, or a huge number of other examples of job requirements.

You may have a point in terms of contracts - it may not be legal to fire someone for not having the vaccine if they were hired pre-mandate. However, there’s nothing stopping them adding a clause on new contracts. And fire-and-rehire is a time tested method of forcing employees to accept updated contract terms in this country. Unfortunately.

A really delicious irony is that EU employment law would have made it harder for them to fire people. Oh well.

[joeysteele]

It's sad to think good care staff will be lost.
I don't understand why now, after all the time that's passed from the first vaccine, then the second and now to the booster.
Why those who can have it won't.

It's been stated by all the science and health advice, the strength of the protection gets less over time of the first vaccinations.
Hence the need for this booster.

On a personal level, I'm sorry but my Mum is not too well now, she has had all her vaccinations so she's protected more from covid.
I would not want, or let anyone near my Mum who wasn't vaccinated.

So overall I support the position of the vaccine is there, so it is a requirement for working in the care and hospital sectors.

I can accept some may not want anything injected into their bodies, they're unsure about.
Very sadly, that will mean then unless the government changes its mind.
They'll need to find another job.
It's a desperately sad situation however for me and mine, no one unvaccinated would I want around my Mum and in fact family.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It's sad to think good care staff will be lost.
I don't understand why now, after all the time that's passed from the first vaccine, then the second and now to the booster.
Why those who can have it won't.

It's been stated by all the science and health advice, the strength of the protection gets less over time of the first vaccinations.
Hence the need for this booster.

On a personal level, I'm sorry but my Mum is not too well now, she has had all her vaccinations so she's protected more from covid.
I would not want, or let anyone near my Mum who wasn't vaccinated.

So overall I support the position of the vaccine is there, so it is a requirement for working in the care and hospital sectors.

I can accept some may not want anything injected into their bodies, they're unsure about.
Very sadly, that will mean then unless the government changes its mind.
They'll need to find another job.
It's a desperately sad situation however for me and mine, no one unvaccinated would I want around my Mum and in fact family.

But what you're saying is that even though your mum is fully vaccinated, you don't trust that the vaccines protect her, so you have no faith in the vaccines. These people also have no faith in the vaccines, and they believe it's more risky to take one then to not take one.

Hope your mum gets well soon.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

But what you're saying is that even though your mum is fully vaccinated, you don't trust that the vaccines protect her, so you have no faith in the vaccines.

This is incorrect logic; everyone knows (it is in fact proven) that none of the vaccines are 100% guaranteed to stop illness or death and so no one can be considered 100% protected. That is in no way the same as having “no faith” in vaccines.

To use allegory again; if you strap on a parachute and jump out of a plane, do you believe there is NO chance of injury or death? That parachutes are 100% effective 100% of the time? Of course not, everyone realises there are still risks in skydiving. Does that mean those people have “no faith in parachutes”? Does it mean they should jump out of the plane without one, declaring that it makes no difference?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is incorrect logic; everyone knows (it is in fact proven) that none of the vaccines are 100% guaranteed to stop illness or death and so no one can be considered 100% protected. That is in no way the same as having “no faith” in vaccines.

To use allegory again; if you strap on a parachute and jump out of a plane, do you believe there is NO chance of injury or death? That parachutes are 100% effective 100% of the time? Of course not, everyone realises there are still risks in skydiving. Does that mean those people have “no faith in parachutes”? Does it mean they should jump out of the plane without one, declaring that it makes no difference?

I would never do a parachute jump unless there was no other choice, I've never even been on a plane in my life. The no other choice would be if I was on a plane and it was gonna crash, then I'd take the chance. Parachute jumps and sky diving are free choices.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

I would never do a parachute jump unless there was no other choice, I've never even been on a plane in my life. The no other choice would be if I was on a plane and it was gonna crash, then I'd take the chance.

So you accept that you’re more likely to survive if you use a parachute than if you don’t, whilst agreeing that parachuting still has risks… or in other words, accepting that something isn’t a guarantee doesn’t mean you have “no faith” in that thing.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Alf

But what you're saying is that even though your mum is fully vaccinated, you don't trust that the vaccines protect her, so you have no faith in the vaccines. These people also have no faith in the vaccines, and they believe it's more risky to take one then to not take one.

Hope your mum gets well soon.

Thank you Alf.

Yes I get that, no one has said however the vaccines stop you getting it.
The vaccines should stop you getting seriously ill and therefore preventing unnecessary death and even hospitalisation.

However you can still get it.
Plus you're more likely to get it from someone unvaccinated probably.

So in a care or hospital setting, it can't be risked anyone not vaccinated putting those with other conditions adding covid to the pot too.

Same with my home situation at present.
I personally don't want anyone in my home and especially to have anything to do with my Mum's health, who hasn't had the available vaccinations.

As I said earlier I was screaming at the government for failing to protect those in care homes and hospitals as to not making sure residents and patients were protected with the maximum protection.
Equally so all the staff protected to the maximum too.

Now they are trying to ensure that, I can only support the harder stance they are taking on the vaccine.

[Alf]

For the record, all of my family are vaccinated. I'm not anti-vax, I'm just pro free choice on something like this.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

For the record, all of my family are vaccinated. I'm not anti-vax, I'm just pro free choice on something like this.

I’m 100% against actual mandatory medical procedures and always will be, I would never support enforced vaccination of the whole population.

I just disagree that it being made a job requirement in a specific industry like healthcare is a removal of freedoms any more than any other job requirement. If someone doesn’t like the job requirements of a job (any job) they have the freedom to say “not for me, sorry” and find other employment. Trying to describe it as “being forced” is too problematic because all sorts of jobs have all sorts of requirements… the idea that “anyone should be able to have any job they want with no prerequisites” just isn’t feasible.

Legally (and practically) I think it’s probably not possible to fire all of the healthcare workers who refuse.

Morally I think that people who are in healthcare (or at the very least, working with the elderly) should either get vaccinated or voluntarily step away. The risk to the over-80’s with Covid is genuinely massive. It’s completely different to pretty much any other scenario.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I’m 100% against actual mandatory medical procedures and always will be, I would never support enforced vaccination of the whole population.

I just disagree that it being made a job requirement in a specific industry like healthcare is a removal of freedoms any more than any other job requirement. If someone doesn’t like the job requirements of a job (any job) they have the freedom to say “not for me, sorry” and find other employment. Trying to describe it as “being forced” is too problematic because all sorts of jobs have all sorts of requirements… the idea that “anyone should be able to have any job they want with no prerequisites” just isn’t feasible.

Legally (and practically) I think it’s probably not possible to fire all of the healthcare workers who refuse.

Morally I think that people who are in healthcare (or at the very least, working with the elderly) should either get vaccinated or voluntarily step away. The risk to the over-80’s with Covid is genuinely massive. It’s completely different to pretty much any other scenario.

I think that sacking the unvaccinated medical staff would do far more damage to the elderly, because there would be far less people caring for them. And the conspiracy theorist in me says that's what they want.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

I think that sacking the unvaccinated medical staff would do far more damage to the elderly, because there would be far less people caring for them. And the conspiracy theorist in me says that's what they want.

The reality of the current NHS staffing crisis is that they really can't afford to fire all of those staff members, which is why I think it's an empty threat anyway. But that's a separate issue really... the question of "is it justified" vs "will they actually do it".

I think saying "you can't work with the elderly and vulnerable if you aren't vaccinated" is justified ... but in reality, I don't think they'll actually do it in this country. They're already horrifically understaffed.

[Parmy]

2 people in my office have caught covid since being double vaxed..both have been off for more than 2 weeks with one having to take more time off with serious long covid symptoms.