[Tom]

Originally posted by Sticks
How about teaching abstinence

Thats just unrealistic and I don't think education would solve the issue because protection is only 98% effective.

To tell a teenager not to do something is probably going to make them go and do it (within reason and morality).

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Fom
If a woman that i got pregnant wanted an abortion I would literally beg her not too, I would even tell her I would take the baby off her hands and she would never have to see it. Yes she has to go through the pain of delivering it, but both of us have to suffer for not being responsible I would raise the baby her side of the bargain is to give birth...

A man once tried that, he went to court to stop his girlfriend having an abortion, but the courts ruled against him.

Here is a thought, side issue, if you persuaded her to have the child, with the understanding you take it off her and bring it up and you are all geared up for that.

Suppose after birth the maternal instinct cuts in and she wants to keep it and does not want you to take him/her away from her.

What then?

Not trying to make a point here as we are on the same side

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Sticks
Suppose after birth the maternal instinct cuts in and she wants to keep it and does not want you to take him/her away from her.

What then?

Not trying to make a point here as we are on the same side

Then it's a good thing she had the baby because otherwise that maternal instinct kicking in would result in a lot of guilt.

A lot of people may disagree with me on this, but I am against abortion in most cases. Even when a woman is raped, as disgusting as rape is and as awful as it is to get raped, I am against abortion. Look at it this way: You would not punish a man for his father's crime. The baby did not choose to be conceived by means of rape, so he should not be murdered because of it.

[xSammyx]

I dont think you can really understand what you would feel unless you are in that situation..

But if everyones careful it shouldnt happen anyway

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by xSammyx
I dont think you can really understand what you would feel unless you are in that situation..

But if everyones careful it shouldnt happen anyway

I have been in that situation, but not as the pregnant woman. I was the unborn baby who could have been murdered. And I'm so happy that I'm still alive today.

[Fom]

Originally posted by Sticks

A man once tried that, he went to court to stop his girlfriend having an abortion, but the courts ruled against him.

Here is a thought, side issue, if you persuaded her to have the child, with the understanding you take it off her and bring it up and you are all geared up for that.

Suppose after birth the maternal instinct cuts in and she wants to keep it and does not want you to take him/her away from her.

What then?

Not trying to make a point here as we are on the same side

I would stand by that and still help her, the only thing that would annoy me would be if she wanted me to not see the baby. Aslong as I saw the baby and brought it up with the mother then I would be ok, I would be pleased that the mother came to sense and realised she just brought someone into the world and that she wanted to help.

[Ruth]

I've already made my feelings quite clear on page one of this thread, so I'm not going to repeat myself all over again!

However - it's very easy to sit in judgement on someone when you haven't been in their position. Expecting someone to bring an unwanted child into the world is cruel both to the woman and to the child.

And don't give me the old 'adoption' argument until you've seen exactly how many children our care system is already struggling to look after. Fact is - most children who are put up for adoption have no chance of being adopted.

And people on here are very harsh on girls who find themselves accidentally pregnant; have none of you ever made a mistake in your life? Should someone be punished for the rest of their lives for a mistake?

It's somewhat hypocritical to say that you are against abortion unless the woman gets raped, by the way.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Ruth
I've already made my feelings quite clear on page one of this thread, so I'm not going to repeat myself all over again!

However - it's very easy to sit in judgement on someone when you haven't been in their position. Expecting someone to bring an unwanted child into the world is cruel both to the woman and to the child.

I'm not sitting in judgment of anyone. However, I do wish that mothers considering abortion would be educated as to what they're really doing. I think most of them are well meaning but just ignorant about what abortion really is.

And don't give me the old 'adoption' argument until you've seen exactly how many children our care system is already struggling to look after. Fact is - most children who are put up for adoption have no chance of being adopted.

This actually isn't true at all. There are far more families who want to adopt than there are babies to be adopted. It's very easy to find a great family to adopt your baby. You can even be extremely picky and still have no problem finding one!

And people on here are very harsh on girls who find themselves accidentally pregnant; have none of you ever made a mistake in your life? Should someone be punished for the rest of their lives for a mistake?

I'm not saying that she should be punished for anything. Having sex for pleasure is not a bad thing, but she must be ready to deal with the consequences, including 9 months of pregnancy. It's not a punishment of any sort, just a way to avoid murder and bring a new life into this beautiful world.

It's somewhat hypocritical to say that you are against abortion unless the woman gets raped, by the way.

I never said I was against abortion unless the woman gets raped. I personally feel that a woman who gets raped, as awful and horrible and disgusting as rape is, should have the baby. As terrible as it is to get raped, the baby did not choose how he should be conceived. It is his father who is a rapist, not he. To murder him for his father's crime would be ridiculous.

[Emzy-!!]

I'm half and half because it's not fair to kill the baby because you don't want it, you should have it and give it up for adoption.
But if the woman got raped then i would agree with abortion totally.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I'm not sitting in judgment of anyone. However, I do wish that mothers considering abortion would be educated as to what they're really doing. I think most of them are well meaning but just ignorant about what abortion really is.

No. You think they are ignorant about what you believe abortion is. I'm not saying abortion is an ideal solution - clearly, it isn't. I believe in choice.

This actually isn't true at all. There are far more families who want to adopt than there are babies to be adopted. It's very easy to find a great family to adopt your baby. You can even be extremely picky and still have no problem finding one!

No. This is incorrect.

I'm not saying that she should be punished for anything. Having sex for pleasure is not a bad thing, but she must be ready to deal with the consequences, including 9 months of pregnancy. It's not a punishment of any sort, just a way to avoid murder and bring a new life into this beautiful world.

Hmmm...I'm not sure I would agree that this is a beautiful world to bring a child into at all - but that's a subject for another thread. What I am trying to say is that if a female finds herself pregnant with an unwanted baby, she should not be made to keep the child. I hate it when people use the word 'murder' - it simply inflames the discussion. And forcing someone to have an unwanted baby, would be like punishment, whichever way you want to dress it up.

I never said I was against abortion unless the woman gets raped. I personally feel that a woman who gets raped, as awful and horrible and disgusting as rape is, should have the baby. As terrible as it is to get raped, the baby did not choose how he should be conceived. It is his father who is a rapist, not he. To murder him for his father's crime would be ridiculous.

Well - none of my original post was aimed at you personally. I was saying that to the many other people on here who say that abortion is wrong, unless the woman is raped. I personally think abortion should be a choice available to a pregnant woman if she feels she may want one. However, there is no logic in the 'wrong unless it's rape' argument.

That is all.

[Fom]

I suppose in a way you have to respect the womans wants though... in all fairness the woman is going to have to give birth to the baby. And thats not as easy as we all would like to think lol.
But my opinions are still strong on this point, if you are willing to have casual sex for fun and having sex with people you dont plan to have a long term relationship with then you must accept the consequences. This is the reason people only have sex after marriage, to stop these kinda of things.
Not saying everyone should do that, but they should be clear that sex is not just fun... it is very serious.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Fom
I suppose in a way you have to respect the womans wants though... in all fairness the woman is going to have to give birth to the baby. And thats not as easy as we all would like to think lol.
But my opinions are still strong on this point, if you are willing to have casual sex for fun and having sex with people you dont plan to have a long term relationship with then you must accept the consequences. This is the reason people only have sex after marriage, to stop these kinda of things.
Not saying everyone should do that, but they should be clear that sex is not just fun... it is very serious.

Sex can be just good fun. And plenty of people who are married have abortions as well.

[bigbr0ther]

I don't really feel sorry for the woman who murders her unborn baby (taking away 75+ years of his life) just so she doesn't have to be pregnant (9 months of her own life).

[Ruth]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I don't really feel sorry for the woman who murders her unborn baby (taking away 75+ years of his life) just so she doesn't have to be pregnant (9 months of her own life).

Having a baby is not just nine months of someone's life though. I don't feel sorry for someone who brings an unwanted child into the world, sentencing that child to either a lifetime of being unwanted to his/her mother, or putting them into our full-to-bursting care system.

Using words like murder inflames an argument. It's often a tactic used to make people who don't agree with you feel guilty, and I think it would be better not used in this conversation, at least if you are trying to be rational.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Ruth

Having a baby is not just nine months of someone's life though. I don't feel sorry for someone who brings an unwanted child into the world, sentencing that child to either a lifetime of being unwanted to his/her mother, or putting them into our full-to-bursting care system.

Using words like murder inflames an argument. It's often a tactic used to make people who don't agree with you feel guilty, and I think it would be better not used in this conversation, at least if you are trying to be rational.

The word abortion is a lie in itself. The correct term is murder, and thus I intend to use it. Whether you think abortion is a good thing or not is your opinion, but it is murder, and that is just a fact. Besides, trying to make you feel guilty about anything would likely be a waste of time.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther

The word abortion is a lie in itself. The correct term is murder, and thus I intend to use it. Whether you think abortion is a good thing or not is your opinion, but it is murder, and that is just a fact. Besides, trying to make you feel guilty about anything would likely be a waste of time.

I disagree. The whole topic around abortion is whether it IS murder. You can't just say it is, because you feel it is.

For example, is it murder if the being is not capable of rational thought? Where do we draw the line on if things are murder?

I'm with Ruth on the fact that I'd rather see a woman have a choice in abortion, than bring a child in the World who is not wanted, maybe not loved...

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Lauren
I disagree. The whole topic around abortion is whether it IS murder. You can't just say it is, because you feel it is.

I don't "feel" that it is. Murder means "to kill or slaughter" making abortion murder. Just because the word murder is inconvenient for pro-abortionists doesn't mean it's not accurate. You can have the opinion that abortion is ethical, but it's a fact that it's murder as well.

For example, is it murder if the being is not capable of rational thought? Where do we draw the line on if things are murder?

Of course it is. Is it murder if the being is 2 months old? What about a year? 3 years? Can these beings have "rational thought," whatever you consider that to be?

I'm with Ruth on the fact that I'd rather see a woman have a choice in abortion, than bring a child in the World who is not wanted, maybe not loved...

The baby will always be loved by his adoptive parents if you are unable to support him.

I'm not claiming to be impartial on this matter. In fact, I think my opinion is more valid because I have been through this personally. I could have been murdered before I was born and then I wouldn't be here typing this. It makes me sad to think that I might have never gotten to live just because of some profit-seeking doctor convincing an ignorant patient that I am just a mass of tissue. (I don't believe I'm a mass of tissue personally. I don't look like a mass of tissue when I look in the mirror... hmm.)

[Lauren]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther

I don't "feel" that it is. Murder means "to kill or slaughter" making abortion murder. Just because the word murder is inconvenient for pro-abortionists doesn't mean it's not accurate. You can have the opinion that abortion is ethical, but it's a fact that it's murder as well.

That's what I mean though... murder doesn't just basically mean 'to kill or slaughter'. So when you step on a plant, you're killing it... so you murdered it? I'm not comparing a foetus with a plant, but merely drawing comparisons in the difficult between "defining" murder.

Furthermore, I'm not "pro-abortion", I am, however, pro-choice. And feel that the choice should not be taken away. The choice also includes the choice NOT to have an abortion.

[Sticks]

Here is one question to throw in

We always here that it is a woman's right to choose.

Suppose two people have sex, the women gets pregnant.

They may or may not be married

The woman does not want a termination, (To use another term), but the man does not want to be a father.

If women have a right to choose, why not men after the fact, after all a bit of his body went in to create the foetus?

Why should he not be entitled to force the woman to have a termination?

Those advocating "Pro-Choice" should also be supporting a man's right to choose, if they want to be consistant.

[Rory]

Originally posted by Sticks
Here is one question to throw in

We always here that it is a woman's right to choose.

Suppose two people have sex, the women gets pregnant.

They may or may not be married

The woman does not want a termination, (To use another term), but the man does not want to be a father.

If women have a right to choose, why not men after the fact, after all a bit of his body went in to create the foetus?

Why should he not be entitled to force the woman to have a termination?

Those advocating "Pro-Choice" should also be supporting a man's right to choose, if they want to be consistant.

Great point, Sticks. However, I know what some people's argument to it will be, "The man never carries the burden of the physical changes that women have to, as well as endure child birth (thank god for that!)

I think that abortion is all up to choice under certain circumstances. I don't think that rape victims who become impregnated should be forced to have their baby, I think they should be given a choice, seeing as the baby could symbolize a reminder of when she was raped. However, I don't doubt that a baby can bring joy into a person's life.

In the end, I think everyone should be able to do what they'd like to, but I'd advocate they'd not unless they're under dire circumstances.

[Sticks]

Out of interest is there anyone here would would agree with the proposition that a woman be made to have a termination against her will if the man chose not to be a father, and did not want her to have the baby?

I was just curious how far the pro-choice lobby would go.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther

The word abortion is a lie in itself. The correct term is murder, and thus I intend to use it. Whether you think abortion is a good thing or not is your opinion, but it is murder, and that is just a fact. Besides, trying to make you feel guilty about anything would likely be a waste of time.

No, the correct term is not murder, unless you have suddenly been made president of the world.

And I take exception to your last comment. Not nice at all. As I have refrained from making personal comments about you in my previous posts, I would appreciate the same courtesy from you. Otherwise, you are giving the impression that you are incapable of holding a rational and reasonable discussion.

As for your post further down the page about a child being loved by it's adoptive parents: I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, or indeed what it takes for you to understand it : whatever you say, the truth is that most children put up for adoption stand little or no chance of being adopted.

Clearly you believe that abortion should be illegal. That's your right to believe that, just as it is my right to believe that it shouldn't be. However, I hope you accept that if it was made illegal, there would be several more women and babies killed by illegal abortions. Better for a woman to have an abortion in a safe environment, than a back street illegal abortion clinic.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Out of interest is there anyone here would would agree with the proposition that a woman be made to have a termination against her will if the man chose not to be a father, and did not want her to have the baby?

I was just curious how far the pro-choice lobby would go.

As a pro-choicer myself - I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice as she would then be primary caregiver.

I can't speak for any others, though.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Ruth
Clearly you believe that abortion should be illegal. That's your right to believe that, just as it is my right to believe that it shouldn't be. However, I hope you accept that if it was made illegal, there would be several more women and babies killed by illegal abortions. Better for a woman to have an abortion in a safe environment, than a back street illegal abortion clinic.

Don't put words in my mouth. I have never once said that abortion should be illegal. The only point I have been arguing is that it is unethical.

I've already said that I disagree with your point about most kids not being adopted. There are more families that want kids but can't than there are unwanted babies.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren

As a pro-choicer myself - I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice as she would then be primary caregiver.

I can't speak for any others, though.

I agree with Lauren on this.