[flyfly5]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
I find it saddning that people are bending over backward so hard to be 'politically correct' that they can't see facts.

Nadia is male. He was born male, and will never be female.

So what if he chooses to look like a woman? He's nothing more than a high-tech drag queen.

As for "nadias female because she has chosen to be female, its a free country, only small minded people dont accept this".
Well, that's a good point. Maybe we should free all the pedofiles and rapists, after all, they made the choice, and it's a free world.

Unbelievable.

Yo Deus, which part of this don't you understand:

Nadia didnt choose to be a transexual.

Get it into your clinically accepted head please. By the way it's 2004, just in case your watch is slow too.

If you try and act like a god, I will tell you right now, I won't treat you like one. However, if you decide to opt for gender re-assignment, I will treat you accordingly, and respect you appropriately.

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
A psychiatrist that doesn't understand basic genetics?
Rrrright - and I'm Jon Tickle.

Bet you love the fact that school's broken up, huh?

I referred to my work in 'the psychiatric field' ....... I trained as an RMN and went on to manage a number of community based projects. However, I am quite happy with my knowledge of genetics - gained through study and experience.

I also have a degree in Politics and Government - but I don't need that to tell me that your somewhat untutored and ignorant views reek of fascism.

[Deus Ex Machina]

You all seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I don't like transsexuals.
False - I just don't like Nadia.

p2p - you are "quite happy with [your] knowledge of genetics", and yet you think a male can become a female by the addition of breasts and the removal of the penis?

This has nothing to do with 'fascism' (of course, by applying a label to me you are being fascist yourself), it is to do with science.

flyfly - What has Nadia choosing to be a transsexual got to do with anything?

Finally: Lee - oh well, never mind. I just assumed you were male because you were a moderator (no offense, it's just more likely because of the male-dominated Internet).

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
You all seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I don't like transsexuals.
False - I just don't like Nadia.

p2p - you are "quite happy with [your] knowledge of genetics", and yet you think a male can become a female by the addition of breasts and the removal of the penis?

This has nothing to do with 'fascism' (of course, by applying a label to me you are being fascist yourself), it is to do with science.

flyfly - What has Nadia choosing to be a transsexual got to do with anything?

Finally: Lee - oh well, never mind. I just assumed you were male because you were a moderator (no offense, it's just more likely because of the male-dominated Internet).

'Liking' , or 'not liking' Nadia cannot be a reason for the use of spurious arguments based upon unsound science.

I refer you to my original response to your 'pseudo-science' in which I discussed the fact that x/y chromosones are NOT fixed entities (as you suggested). They are able to transform according to a number of factors - temperature, pollutants, hormone levels etc. By this (somewhat deeper) understanding of genetics it is a given fact that, via the various surgical and chemical processes undergone by a (self-opting) transexual, the levels of oestrogen rise (significantly) and create the conditions which promote female characteristics.

I realise that your understanding of this somewhat complex (and challenging) subject is possibly based upon 'common sense' science (frequently promoted by the red-top tabloids).

However, there is nothing more liberating than knowledge. Therefore I have added a few quotes from scientific articles which seek to explore the subject in a more balanced way.


Several factors can be taken into account in determining a person's biological sex. They include chromosomal sex (X and Y, for example); hormonal sex (oestrogen and testosterone); gonadal sex (ovaries and testes); genital sex (vagina and penis, for example); reproductive sex (sperm-carrying and inseminating; gestating and lactating); and other associated internal organs (like the uterus or the prostate).

These factors are not always consistent with each other. In fact science admits everyone falls somewhere along a continuum. But few people would know if they were 100-per-cent male or 100-per-cent female, chromosomally or hormonally, as there are not many cases in everyday practice in which this would be tested.

http://www.ai-lgbt.org/transgender.htm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Elevating the sex chromosomes above all other factors may be the 21st century parallel of the mistake made by the Victorians who located "true" sex in the gonads. Though high school biology teaches that men have XY and women XX chromosomes, in fact there are quite a few other combinations (XO, XXY, XO/XY, XYY, XX male, XY female), and there are many individuals who do not follow these patterns.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Intersex





I sincerely hope that the above will prove to be enlightening (for all who are confused about this issue). Without wishing to sound overly dogmatic or superior, I trust that these scientific articles can put an end to this needless and rather tasteless thread.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My reference to 'fascism' may have been a little heavyhanded. However, the last polity to institutionally employ pseudo-science to victimise transexuals (amongst many other other groups) was Nazi Germany. I am sure you will agree that we would not want to tread that path again.

[helenrobin]

Nadia is female!

Ok think of this, I have said it loads of times! All you men out there totally attracted to women, can't get enough of them, whether you're a boob man, personality man or whatever man, think about, when you were born you were born female but had all the same feelings as you do a man. Today's society would make you feel abnormal having feelings towards women when you were a woman, so the other option is to have an op to make you a man, that way you keep your true feelings and you have the body of man. Same thing as what Nadia has gone through, just try and understand the concept in it, she has inner feelings of a woman (so she is a true woman within), unfortunately she was born in a man's body, but now, she has had the op, she has the full working body and inner feelings of a woman, so therefore Nadia is a woman...simple!

Cut the girl some slack and see it from that point of view, look at yourselves and imagine what your feelings are like to the opposite sex, and then think well what if I had been unfortunately born as the same sex as the peeps I am attracted to.

What I want to know is how all the opinionated peeps out there would treat someone with both female/male parts, it's not their fault, it's the unfortunate design, what would you say to that are they male or female, would you condem them for having both parts, and if they had one or the other removed would you have an opinion on saying they were the opposite to what op they had.

Come on people this is the year 2004, society today has more of an understanding to people like that, they are not aliens, they are human, they have feelings, and when people say hurtful things it hurts them just like you or me. remember all this is classed as a form of bullying towards the person.

Nadia wants to be a female, she acts like a female, she looks like a female and most of all she has female in her inner self, therefore she is female.

Sorry to put a dampner on this topic but I feel strongly about peoples reactions to Nadia just because she was born a male.

[p2pnut]

Quite agree helenrobin

[helenrobin]

thanx jacuzzi!

[ickle04]

Blah blah blah. Whats the problem? As far as i,m concerned Nadia is a person who chose to be a female. She's all women, chill out & accept her.

[LEE]

I agree as well Helen.

I'm not a fan of Nadia - I can't stand her - but that hasn't made me post the sort of prejudiced drivel I've seen on this thread. I might consider her to be awful, but it's nothing to do with the fact that she is a transexual, it's her personality I don't like.

I may not like her, but I 100% defend her right to call herself a woman.

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by LEE
I may not like her, but I 100% defend her right to call herself a woman.

LOL - If I remember correctly that was the summation of the discussion between John Cleese and Eric Idle in Monty Python's Life of Brian (during the scene in the arena).

Joking aside - it is a healthy and tolerant attitude.

[Deus Ex Machina]

p2p - oddly enough I was reading that site yesterday, and although it has lots of interesting information, it doesn't really provide a definate answer on the situation either way.
Going by what you quoted, it would seem that Nadia had no need for surgery, she could simply choose to be woman and *bing* there it would be.
That, obviously, couldn't happen.

Finally:

Originally posted by p2pnut
...the last polity to institutionally employ pseudo-science to victimise transexuals... was Nazi Germany. I am sure you will agree that we would not want to tread that path again.

Hitler also banned hunting with hounds - quick! To the countryside march

Out of interest, I work with a MF transsexual called Drew.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
Out of interest, I work with a MF transsexual called Drew.

That's not entirely true, at the moment he's just a cross-dresser, he is going through the 18 months of 'being a woman' before he is allowed the treatment.

[p2pnut]

Deus, I'm sure you would never let a fact ruin a good argument.

as Nadia would say .......... "whatever"

[Deus Ex Machina]

What fact?

[flyfly5]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
Maybe we should free all the pedofiles and rapists, after all, they made the choice, and it's a free world.

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
flyfly - What has Nadia choosing to be a transsexual got to do with anything?

Nadia didn't choose to be a transexual.

You might catch up with the rest of us...one day...

[Deus Ex Machina]

I can assure you she did.

And while I'm catching up you might like to learn to spell 'transsexual'.

[She Devil]

Deux - Why is it that when you have been beat in a debate you result in commenting about peoples spelling mistakes?

[BB6 housemate]

lets put this to rest nadia was born a man therefore she's born a man.

if a dog is born it cant change to be a cat can it ?