[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Chels

But still it was our country first and Christianity was the original religion, so if they want to be religious AND live here then they should become a Christian.

I live here and I am not a christian.

I dont think, in fact Im sure, it isnt up to us to force people into a certain religion, OR tell them what they can and cant wear.

However, as I said before, anything obstructing CCTV views in places that need security...the burka SHOULD be banned there, as hoodies/balaclavas etc are. That is really just common sense, and allowing people to wear one in places like that is highly hypocritical and PC nonsense. If burkas are allowed, stop banning other similar things, and just let everyone run riot. Its only fair.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I live here and I am not a christian.

I dont think, in fact Im sure, it isnt up to us to force people into a certain religion, OR tell them what they can and cant wear.

However, as I said before, anything obstructing CCTV views in places that need security...the burka SHOULD be banned there, as hoodies/balaclavas etc are. That is really just common sense, and allowing people to wear one in places like that is highly hypocritical and PC nonsense. If burkas are allowed, stop banning other similar things, and just let everyone run riot. Its only fair.

What's quite funny is that we weren't a christian country to start off with, English ancestors were all Pagans until the Romans came and invaded us so it's amusing considering some of the replies in this thread.

EDIT: Pagans was the word I was looking for.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I live here and I am not a christian.

I dont think, in fact Im sure, it isnt up to us to force people into a certain religion, OR tell them what they can and cant wear.

However, as I said before, anything obstructing CCTV views in places that need security...the burka SHOULD be banned there, as hoodies/balaclavas etc are. That is really just common sense, and allowing people to wear one in places like that is highly hypocritical and PC nonsense. If burkas are allowed, stop banning other similar things, and just let everyone run riot. Its only fair.

I agree with all that. Also the fact it's nothing to do with their religion and is a symbol of opression.

[Stu]

Tell me you didn't just say that ...

Are we all sure we are aware that one of the building blocks of British society is it's tolerance towards creed and culture? You know you are NOT following the rules and being very ... not British ... and very, well, Muslim ... by saying they should be forced to change faith?

That's so absurd.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by MrGaryy

-insert generic facepalm gif here-

Yes, that too.

Seriously, the cultural ignorance in this thread is astounding. People defending there own country without knowing a thing about it. Fair enough if you think the Burka should be banned but jeez.

[Tom4784]

I love it when people say muslims will take over Britain. How exactly? We're a democracy are we not of different faiths, how would muslims take control of a country when they are copletely and utterly outnumbered by people of other beliefs? Do we all suddenly appear in this vision of doom? Melt away perhaps?

Utterly ridiculous, no religion will ever take precedent of this country in this day and age.

The ignorance in this thread is shocking, as well as some of the hypocrisy.

[dudus]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I love it when people say muslims will take over Britain. How exactly? We're a democracy are we not of different faiths, how would muslims take control of a country when they are copletely and utterly outnumbered by people of other beliefs? Do we all suddenly appear in this vision of doom? Melt away perhaps?

Utterly ridiculous, no religion will ever take precedent of this country in this day and age.

The ignorance in this thread is shocking, as well as some of the hypocrisy.

bit by bit the muslims chip away at our culture
look at tht story other week about tht swimming pool covering up windows for muslim swimmers
and they walk around looking like postboxes fuk sake go to bradford GO TO ANY CITY AND SEE BUT THEN AGAIN DEZZY I BET YOUR FROM SOME VILLAGE OR SUTTIN
bit by bit

[ange7]

Originally Posted by dudus

bit by bit the muslims chip away at our culture
look at tht story other week about tht swimming pool covering up windows for muslim swimmers
and they walk around looking like postboxes fuk sake go to bradford GO TO ANY CITY AND SEE BUT THEN AGAIN DEZZY I BET YOUR FROM SOME VILLAGE OR SUTTIN
bit by bit

"British culture" = "pools with windows".
mahahah!!! have a think
Off the pipe mate or you'll lose your mind "bit by bit"

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

It really isn't that outrageous an idea - as Muslims have lots of children, many more than your average Brit - so given time - Muslims could be in the majority - which I wouldn't mind betting - is how some of them are thinking! If more and more Muslims are allowed into the country, having yet more and more children - it really is not that far fetched an idea!

Way to stereotype an entire faith, they aren't all out to get you, you know and what's more it's quite offensive that you suggest they basically breed like rabbits.

Muslims aren't Daleks, They've all got independant thoughts and opinions just like people of any other faith. That's what annoys me, I've personally known muslims who are a lot more tolerant and peaceful then a lot of the people in this thread.

So yeah, not all muslims are apart of some plan to take over the world.

Also with your post you've forgotten about other faiths as well, do you think it's realistic that Muslims can get a political majority over everyone else who isn't Islam really? We've got Christianitiy, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism as well as atheists and agnostics and less popular faiths. Remember these people won't suddenly become infertile they'll have kids too so it's very unrealistic to think that one faith alone could get a political majority when so many other faiths are apart of the uk.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

It really isn't that outrageous an idea - as Muslims have lots of children, many more than your average Brit - so given time - Muslims could be in the majority - which I wouldn't mind betting - is how some of them are thinking! If more and more Muslims are allowed into the country, having yet more and more children - it really is not that far fetched an idea!

Just when you think you've read the most ridiculous pile of garbage there is on TiBB...

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You would say that! Please tell me exactly how it is untrue! You are so unbelievably PC about this! Can you give a realistic theory that will disprove mine! After all, having lots of children is how you populate a country! And do Muslims or do they not (on average) have more children than Brits (on average).

The face of Islam we see, the hate filled speeches are done by extremists. most Muslims are moderate peace loving folk pretty much the same as the indigenous British, they dont want to see extremism take hold of this country.

They dont want to see this country turned into the style of country they emigrated from. They emigrated for a reason mainly a better way of life. It isnt a subtle plan by islam to fill the country up with muslims and then take over.

Following your logic the Republic of Ireland and other countries would be slaves of Rome.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You would say that! Please tell me exactly how it is untrue! You are so unbelievably PC about this! Can you give a realistic theory that will disprove mine! After all, having lots of children is how you populate a country! And do Muslims or do they not (on average) have more children than Brits (on average).

Even if they do [links to statistics would not go unwarranted], simple logic would dictate that those children themselves would have to do a whole load of crazy shagging every few years from a very young age to have any chance at all of outnumbering the English. You seem to think just because Muslims have more children, it equates to Muslims eventually taking over. Maths isin't as simple as that and a whole slew of additional factors need to be taken into consideration.

You are also forgetting that with each successive generation, kids become more and more secular. While this is less so in the Muslim tradition, it is still very apparent in the UK and I'm betting that the vast majority of teenagers of Muslim origin out on the streets tonight don't give Allah a moments notice.

Secularisation will take over fundamentalism. I have no doubt about that. But people don't realize this because atheists and plastic religionists [those who say they are ____ but don't really practice or give a rat's arse either way] are a much harder group of people to round up in a cenus. Fundamentalists make for far easier sheep to herd.

As for the place of Burka's in the realm of a national security debate : freedom comes at a price. Have we any hard statistics you wish to offer up to show how the wearing of Burka's has proved to be a major naitonal security threat for Britain in recent years?

Going back to freedom coming at a price, there are litterally and truthfully thousands of facets of modern culture and freedom that kick our species in the ass every day. From motor vehicles to consturction sites. Smoking to weaponary. I would imagine more deaths have been caused in the past ten years in Britain as a result of highly trivial, unfortuitous fashion disasters than as a result of this one dodgy piece of fashion.

In practical terms, it really is that much of a non issue.

You seem to think most Muslims are for restricting freedom. It's akin to saying Catholic Ireland wants tighter controls on condoms and homosexuality. But we went the opposite way and allowed for both because most people betray the faith they barely understand and choose to live in the real world. Like it or not most of us recognize your view on the Muslim faith as being utterly warped by the media and the loud minority of extremists. You are delving into bigot territory.

Now aint that something.

And trust me, nobody has more contemp for the stupidity of Islam, and indeed all of Abraham's other funhouse religions, than I. But the people behind them are very, very diverse and they are not all as nutty as the ones you see the most, and what their scripture esposes.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You would say that! Please tell me exactly how it is untrue! You are so unbelievably PC about this! Can you give a realistic theory that will disprove mine! After all, having lots of children is how you populate a country! And do Muslims or do they not (on average) have more children than Brits (on average) - it is after all part of their religious beliefs, isn't it!

Well ignoring the fact that muslims and British people aren't mutually exclusive, I'm wondering what on earth the figures to do with childbearing amongst Muslims has to do with your paranoid notion that they're out to get you.

As Stu says above - the rise, very much so in the positions of power, is amongst the atheists and agnostic people rather than theists, let alone other religions.

And as for the fear-mongering spread about the religion: the attitudes towards women held by some extreme/misled segments of Islam is in no way more malicious a view of Islam on the whole, as homophobes are in Christianity. Call me optimistic if you like, but modern attitudes are very much more cosmopolitan and open than they have ever been - and that's not going to be jeopardised by a few women wanting to wear a veil.

[Stu]

I'm glad someone has alluded to the fact that the world we inhabit really is not all that bad. One would think ignorance, racism, intolerance, and homophobia was at an all time high but they are not. We just see it on the news a lot. But we always have and more than likely always will, barring all naive views of a utopia.

For the most part first world societies have it good. Real good. Fundamentalist Christianity's invasion of the American political system is a far greater cause for concern in my mind than what Muslims are doing in any English speaking first world society. American's will destroy themselves in a civil war before Al Quaeda ever levels Manhattan. I'm not saying it's going to happen, I am saying it's the more likely of the two.

Refferences to Noah's Ark in Science class in Backwash Hickdoo, Georgia to me is far less distressing than idiots wearing veils. Let them wear veils. The stupider religion get's to look the better and the faster we can all progress to a new age of fucking enlightenment. Because quite a lot of us ignored the last one if this forum is a suitable microcosm to go by.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

First of all, lets not put words in people's mouths for emotive effect - I don't believe anyone is out to get me! Of course, the higher rates of child-bearing amongst Muslims could considerably impact on British society at some point in the future! And although I don't disagree that society in general has become more secular and that the possibility that Muslim fundamentalists may lose their grip on future generations of Muslims raised in British society - this is by no means a foregone conclusion - whose to say it could not go the other way! Where would we be then!

Stu's points about freedom coming at a price may also be true - but why should the price we already pay for those freedoms be increased so that Muslim women can wear burkas in public in Britain! What do Muslims bring to the table, what do they give us that makes that increased risk worth taking?

To my recollection, the British public have never actually been asked if they want Britain to become a multi-cultural society - it has been foisted upon us, without any thought to majority feeling! Most Brits, leaving Christianity aside, value the British culture and way of life and don't want to see that change. That is perfectly natural, why shouldn't they have a right to keep that identity! Our culture is as valid as any other!

I think you underestimate the effect a few women (how do you know it will only be a few, particularly if the numbers of Muslims entering our country increase) could potentially have on our society, given the message behind it! Increasing numbers of people demonstrate concerns for the future of our way of life, as we know it, as has been shown by the numbers of people objecting to an open-door policy for imigration into this country - although this policy is now changing with a conservative government in power. But governments change.

And I strongly disagree with Stu that my view of the Muslim faith has been warped by the media and extremists - maybe his views or yours have been warped by other sources of information or experience that the rest of us are not privvy to.

Such comments are patronising and belligerent in nature, particularly when bringing the word bigot into it! Emotive words like that are often just an effective way of making someone feel uncomfortable about expressing their views, which rather invalidates the value of their use - neither of you know me and therefore where my views have come from, just making your usual assumptions!

I take it you dont read party manifestos prior to an election, allowing unrestricted immigration was pointed out to be of concern in the last 3 election manifestos of both the Lib Dems and Conservative Party. Similarly the Labour Party mentioned allowing immigration etc in theirs.

Whilst it is true it was never put to a referendum, when a political party is voted into power, they take it they have received public endorsements for their manifesto and ALL its contents. Sad but true, thats the way our democracy works.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

First of all, lets not put words in people's mouths for emotive effect - I don't believe anyone is out to get me! Of course, the higher rates of child-bearing amongst Muslims could considerably impact on British society at some point in the future! And although I don't disagree that society in general has become more secular and that the possibility that Muslim fundamentalists may lose their grip on future generations of Muslims raised in British society - this is by no means a foregone conclusion - whose to say it could not go the other way! Where would we be then!

Well precisely, who IS to say it could go the other way? Not you, for starters. There is and always will be a strong anti-Islam sentiment in the country (take a look at the hysteria caused by all these Wooton Bassett demonstration protests, for example) and whilst most of it is often laden with hatred, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Britain is on a surge of Islamophilia.

Stu's points about freedom coming at a price may also be true - but why should the price we already pay for those freedoms be increased so that Muslim women can wear burkas in public in Britain! What do Muslims bring to the table, what do they give us that makes that increased risk worth taking?

Erm - what price am I exactly paying so a woman can wear a burka?

And in response to the second question - whilst theists are almost always going to be devoid of objective and rational thought (when they'll learn that God doesn't exist, I'll never know ) - you still haven't answered my point that they're just as dangerous as right-wing Christians, and they seem to be doing rather well for themselves.

To my recollection, the British public have never actually been asked if they want Britain to become a multi-cultural society - it has been foisted upon us, without any thought to majority feeling! Most Brits, leaving Christianity aside, value the British culture and way of life and don't want to see that change. That is perfectly natural, why shouldn't they have a right to keep that identity! Our culture is as valid as any other!

It's not like Britain has been blind to other cultural heritage until recently now, though, is it? Britain's long been seen as a tolerant and opportunist nation welcome to all - and ever since the colonial days we've never had a quintessentially "British" culture anyway: look at the cup of tea. We'd never have that if it wasn't for trade established in India and China.

As Shasown stated above anyway, the majority of British political parties now have an embrace of multiculturalism in their manifestoes.

I think you underestimate the effect a few women (how do you know it will only be a few, particularly if the numbers of Muslims entering our country increase) could potentially have on our society, given the message behind it! Increasing numbers of people demonstrate concerns for the future of our way of life, as we know it, as has been shown by the numbers of people objecting to an open-door policy for imigration into this country - although this policy is now changing with a conservative government in power. But governments change.

I agree that the message behind wearing a burka and the reasons most women do are misguided and part of a stupid religion - but I feel that way towards all religious paraphernalia. If I could have my way, crosses, turbans, Bibles, Korans and Buddha statues would be thrown onto the same mocked pile of crap that currently houses Wiccan symbolism and sun-worshippers.

And I strongly disagree with Stu that my view of the Muslim faith has been warped by the media and extremists - maybe his views or yours have been warped by other sources of information or experience that the rest of us are not privvy to.

Perhaps not yours but the majority of Muslim coverage in mainstream media and current affairs is negative. There's always something going wrong in the Middle East, there's complaints about burkas, there's fictional homophobic characters in the country's biggest soap opera.

Such comments are patronising and belligerent in nature, particularly when bringing the word bigot into it! Emotive words like that are often just an effective way of making someone feel uncomfortable about expressing their views, which rather invalidates the value of their use - neither of you know me and therefore where my views have come from, just making your usual assumptions!

I don't think anyone said bigot...I know I didn't

In short there's no denying that religion is the source of a lot of problems - but to pick on one without the others is not going to answer them, merely going to exacerbate them.

[brian3]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You would say that! Please tell me exactly how it is untrue! You are so unbelievably PC about this! Can you give a realistic theory that will disprove mine! After all, having lots of children is how you populate a country! And do Muslims or do they not (on average) have more children than Brits (on average) - it is after all part of their religious beliefs, isn't it!

20 or 30 years ago if you had talked about female oppression and the sexist words people use. You would have been accused of being "unbelievably PC". Now you are the one doing the accusing.

[Shasown]

One other point to take into consideration before banning the burka simply because it offends western feminist sensibilities. It simply adds fire to Extremist views that the Western World hate them and discriminate against them.

A western hating muslim mulla would use it to fire up the disenchanted youths who listen. Saying its another example of the West dictating which parts of Islam they will tolerate and which parts they will legislate on, gradually dismantling Islam itself.

While it may not in itself lead to a fatwah a ban will certainly lead to more muslims flocking to get their fashionable blow up waistcoats and queue up for their pop at the 72 virgins in heaven thing.

[dudus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

One other point to take into consideration before banning the burka simply because it offends western feminist sensibilities. It simply adds fire to Extremist views that the Western World hate them and discriminate against them.

A western hating muslim mulla would use it to fire up the disenchanted youths who listen. Saying its another example of the West dictating which parts of Islam they will tolerate and which parts they will legislate on, gradually dismantling Islam itself.

While it may not in itself lead to a fatwah a ban will certainly lead to more muslims flocking to get their fashionable blow up waistcoats and queue up for their pop at the 72 virgins in heaven thing.

so basically wot your saying is we got all muslim nutters in the world holding us country to ransom
great

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Such comments are patronising and belligerent in nature, particularly when bringing the word bigot into it! Emotive words like that are often just an effective way of making someone feel uncomfortable about expressing their views, which rather invalidates the value of their use - neither of you know me and therefore where my views have come from, just making your usual assumptions!

Just like you did when you called me sexist. Lesson over.

As fortune would have it, it's a common fact that extremist Muslims only represent a very, very small minority of the total populace of the Muslim population in Britain. It's a FACT, you see.

The rest of your post is the same old, deny it as you wish, 'out to get us' farce. Why did you even bother to say that British people have a right to retain their identity. Of course they do. Nobody is taking it from them. To me your view is warped by the media.

You also assert once again that there will be a high price to pay for allowing Burka's in Britain, yet you still have not offered up any hard data on the negative effects and threats to security the Burka has lampooned Britain with in recent years. It really is a lot more trivial than you are making it out to be. That's not me trivializing the issue, more responding to your media warped, paranoid view that this is one small step to a dystopian Sharia wasteland.

Meanwhile the weak as piss argument you offer up to the fact that society is actually becoming more secular is to say 'it's not a foregone conclusion'. Well bravo. You could apply that statement to anything. It's not a foregone conclusion that we will all wake up tomorrow. But we probably will.

This is ludicrous.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You are seriously trying to draw comparions between me calling you sexist when you referred to me as darling in an argument and your use of the word bigot! Let's not attempt to insult either mine or anyone's else's intelligence with that drivel! What you allegedly say to your male friends on here is hardly the same as you saying it to a female in that situation - we both know how you meant it, don't even bother trying to claim otherwise!

As for Muslim women wearing burkas - if Muslim men wanted the right to wear some kind of headwear that we all knew symbolised homophobia - you would not be so accommodating, despite what you say! Your denials are equally as weak and ludicrous and you accuse my arguments of being!

Why would I be trying to insult anybody else intelligence? You are the only person on the planet right now who believes I am sexist. It should be enough for you to know that I used 'darling' in a patronizing context. Sure. But not a sexist one.

As for headwear symbolising homophobia ... for you to point out a lame comparison and then make an even lamer one ... oh the irony is killing me.

Headwear that symbolises homophobia.

Christ. Let's get the latest Muslim fashion designers to etch a bloodied, tattered dildo onto a cowboy hat.

Fuck me sideways.

I find it hard to take you seriously because you seem intent on answering back about 43% of what the other person says and not arguing back/ancknowledging the rest.

[Tom4784]

We've always been a multi cultural country since we became civilised, The Romans left their mark and so did the Anglo Saxons and the Vikings, they all played a part in creating a culture as we see now. The idea we've suddenly became a multi-cultural country is silly, since we've been multi-cultural for a VERY long time.

[dudus]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

We've always been a multi cultural country since we became civilised, The Romans left their mark and so did the Anglo Saxons and the Vikings, they all played a part in creating a culture as we see now. The idea we've suddenly became a multi-cultural country is silly, since we've been multi-cultural for a VERY long time.

yes were so clever arent we letting every tom dick and abdullah come and take our country over

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by dudus

bit by bit the muslims chip away at our culture
look at tht story other week about tht swimming pool covering up windows for muslim swimmers
and they walk around looking like postboxes fuk sake go to bradford GO TO ANY CITY AND SEE BUT THEN AGAIN DEZZY I BET YOUR FROM SOME VILLAGE OR SUTTIN
bit by bit

ROFL, The Muslims taking over our country one swimming pool at a time.

The point somebody else made is a great one, most immigrants from middle eastern countries come here to escape the restrictions of their home country, why would they want to do the same here? Also like I said before, muslims aren't some sort of hive conciousness you get the few extremists (like with any religion) but the rest are individuals, they don't want to take over the UK and it's hilarious when Media brainwashed sheep think they do.

Originally Posted by dudus

yes were so clever arent we letting every tom dick and abdullah come and take our country over

You know there's a pretty good chance that your bloodline has ties to other countries too you know? There's hardly anyone who's purely Brittish due to the influences of other countries during our development. When you consider it like that it's funny to see you spouting off like a mouthpiece of the daily mail.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

If a group of overweight women who were insecure and self-conscious about their bodies wanted the windows blacked out - do you think the pool would have agreed! Preferential treatment - simple as!

And most Muslims come here to get jobs and make money - not to escape their countries or their religion! Let's not kid ourselves it is about loving Britain - just the improved lifestyle it provides!

The funny thing that gets me is why were the windows blacked out? It was the councils decision. Thinking about it though if Muslim women were worried about their modesty, wouldnt they just wear a full body bathing suit - the so called Burkini:



If they wore bikinis or normal bathing costumes wouldnt they be immodest with regards to the other bathers?

However if you look into the story a bit more closely, you will find it wasnt just muslims who wanted the windows screened it was non muslims as well. Also the pools were not pitched into darkness as claimed, The film applied to the windows was actually translucent which allows natural light through.

http://www.walsall.gov.uk/news/leisu...tre_claims.htm

Definately a case of churnalism:

http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/20...ol-forces.html

In essence, a leisure centre has added a few privacy measures to a swimming pool after suggestions from Muslims and non-Muslims.

The tabloids turn this into: Muslims force Council to black out all windows in a swimming pool so they can swim while ruining it for everyone else.