[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I don't think some have been mis-translated at all, some will have been but on the whole it won't have been. I believe it would be contradictory in its original form. All religious texts are.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren

I agree, they focussed on the bad.

But the fact that some bad exists within the Qu'ran (and it's not just how you interpret it... some of the lines in the Qu'ran cannot be interpreted in any other way) shows that it's claim to pure good is refutable?

About female circumcision - you cannot take the blame away from Islam for that. The Qu'ran has been the instigator of damning regimes (Ayatollah Khomeini, for example), just like Christianity has been the instigator to damning groups (Westboro Baptist Church, for example).

Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

(As you see, I didn't go for the sensationalist perspective of 'Religion is not peaceful because people bomb for their religion' etc - because I feel the Ayatollah's regime was much more lasting and representative of the Qu'ran interpretation).

I dont think any bad exist in Quran its mainly some passages were translated differently and some of them totally taken out of context like sword fight if you read the whole chapter doesn't nowhere refer to humanity as whole, it refersto the Pagan tribes that broke their treaty whole killed not just muslims but chrisitians and jews, Prophet mohammed came and gave equal rights to Jews and chrisitian that were living in the land, C4 isn't best place to learn about quran. to understand the Quran you need read the whole chapters, genetle mutation does exist, niether wife beating which contradicts the Prophets action and word on authentic sayings. What they did is they were talking about womens rights, and they didn't mention anything about inheritance, womens in Islam are not allowed to forced into marriage, their divorce right, financail obligation, according to statistic 1/3 women convert to islam, I'm sure if Islam treated women badly then why would they even convert?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom

I don't think some have been mis-translated at all, some will have been but on the whole it won't have been. I believe it would be contradictory in its original form. All religious texts are.

It was contradictory, the verse they quoted doesn't fit the sayings and doings of Prophet mohammed, and in various places they made mistakes in translations like the sword verses, If they for example interviewed something like Dr Zakir naik he would of made mincemeat of them.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad

It was contradictory, the verse they quoted doesn't fit the sayings and doings of Prophet mohammed, and in various places they made mistakes in translations like the sword verses, If they for example interviewed something like Dr Zakir naik he would of made mincemeat of them.

But the verses they did quote, exist - right?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren

But the verses they did quote, exist - right?

I explained in previous posts that many of the verse they quoted was totally out of context, for example the sword verse was in noway refer to every non-muslim. If you read the chapter and look into historical context it talks about during the new religion Islam, Pagans were worshipping idols, and they saw Islam as a threat to their trade business of their Idol gods. The tribes didn't like that, they then wanted exterminate prophet and his people for years, the tribe were also racist, they owned black slave which prophet freed those slave like Black bilal. In context God gave muslims permission to fight against them to defend themselves and kill them when you encounter war on the field, but if they surrender and ask for peace then give them peace and end the fight, this verse wasn't even quoted which was next verse before it spoke of killing. In the War prophet Mohammed told his army that only kill those army, but dont kill their womens, children, elderly people. If Prophet asked his people to kill everyone who doesn't convert then why did he Marry a chirisitian called Marry and a Jew who both of them repsected the prophet.

They didn't quote the full verse they quoted part of it to justify that Quran is aginst humanity, they also didn't quote the next verse which gives them the answer, they quoted verse Chapter 2:191, but not 2:192 and 490 which gives them the answers.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

Next two verse says:

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Hmm they didn't quote these.

Plus another chapter says:

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

I hope people dont fall for this docmentary, the narrator isn't a scholar who give valid info about islam. Quran in noway tells Islam to kill innocent people niether the wife beating is totally against the sayings and action of prophet Mohammed.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom

I don't think some have been mis-translated at all, some will have been but on the whole it won't have been. I believe it would be contradictory in its original form. All religious texts are.

What Channel 4 did is they cut and eiditted the verses to twist its real meaning. The Beating of wife is merily as mis-translation of the word Daraba. Daraba basically can mean to beat or to go forth to next step like divorce, "avoid them", "leave them". For example Prophet Mohammed forbade wife beating according to auhtentic hadith:

Hadith - Bukhari 8:68 (Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68), Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a The Prophet said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?"

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

Further more the verse talks about a cruel wife not all women as it talks about cruel husband in other verses and what a women should do to her unrighteous husband.

[lolester]

farhead get with it
its not the center of the earth the earth is a circle so it has no center apart form the core.

and no it isnt the metor that wirped out the dinosaures that metrorite is scintificclty located in mexico,

and the quran is misleading and that is why there is teroistits becuse they miss read the quran

[Lauren]

Originally posted by lolester

and the quran is misleading and that is why there is teroistits becuse they miss read the quran

No.

Terrorists don't exist because of the Qu'ran. ISLAMIC terrorists exist first, and then use the Qu'ran to mislead/support their issues toward others.

As much as I disagree with religion, it does not cause the problems - it's just used as support for them. The issue is with human fallacy, not the religion itself.

Furthermore, terrorists is not a term associated with Islam. It's a completely independent phrase that exists outside both Islam, AND religion. For example, IRA terrorists.
Also, a lot of Spanish terrorism and Russian terrorism is a result of politics, not religion.

[andyman]

saudi arbia and iran are pumping out there verison of islam all over the world which is a shame coz its giving other muslims a bad name... But the saudis have the money to pump there islam everywhere.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren


Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

People have a tendency to do what they want to do out of selfish motives, and as justification will twist what ever scriptures they can.

One of the letters in the New Testament mentions this, but as Lauren does not want religious texts quoted, I won't give the citation.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks

People have a tendency to do what they want to do out of selfish motives, and as justification will twist what ever scriptures they can.

One of the letters in the New Testament mentions this, but as Lauren does not want religious texts quoted, I won't give the citation.

I do agree with you Sticks, relaying to all religions - religion does not cause evil, but evil justifies itself by using religion.

What confuses me is that some quotes are easy to twist, like the ones in the C4 documentary about the Qu'ran. Sure they were taken out of context, but they still exist?

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lauren

What confuses me is that some quotes are easy to twist, like the ones in the C4 documentary about the Qu'ran. Sure they were taken out of context, but they still exist?

Maybe they believe a bad quote is justified when in context so we can see all sides to it? In fairness, we can't really judge whether another religion is right or wrong because of their customs because our morals are different to theirs. Of course we can have an opinion but my point is I don't think we're in a completely valid position to condemn an action unless its clearly using religous texts and twisting it to justify evil.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom

Maybe they believe a bad quote is justified when in context so we can see all sides to it? In fairness, we can't really judge whether another religion is right or wrong because of their customs because our morals are different to theirs. Of course we can have an opinion but my point is I don't think we're in a completely valid position to condemn an action unless its clearly using religous texts and twisting it to justify evil.

They did quote it intetionally out of context such as they were quoting part of the verse and taking its meaning from there, if they quoted the full verse then the verse would of said Fight those who fight you and kill those who attack you but if they surrender and ask for peace then give them peace, this would of explained the entire meaning that its was referring self-defence, notice when they quoted a line they didn't present the verse showing on the book. This is a reason why channel4 want to portray and twist the real teachings of Islam. Such as female mutation is in no way is connected to Islam, there is no authentics sayings from Prophet or the Quran that female mutation should e carried. They picked this one bad apple from one community because the community was an Islamic state and mixed it with religion. Genitle mution in that state in africa was already present before Islam.

Notice they spoke of stoning and homosexuality but didn't present a direct quote from quran regarding this, this is because these things are not even mentioned.

[farhad]

This is some of Islamic source on women taken from Hadeeth and Quran, also its not often mentioned but Racism was first abolished by Mohammed, and example is when he freed a Black slave called Bilal from his brutal owner, these are the main things that the media or the western society never teach people about islam.

Muhammad the Feminist

I wonder how many men and women nowadays can digest the idea of calling Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a "feminist".

That is, a feminist in the sense of one who always stood for the rights of women. In fact, he was just that, though the term applied to the Prophet could sound a bit quaint or anachronistic.



In a cultural milieu where baby girls were buried alive and wives were treated no better than chattel, the Prophet courageously liberated them and raised their status to equal that of men.



Muslims see Muhammad as living up to his God-appointed mission as the final messenger of God, standing up like a titan towering above the barbaric influences of the time to become the spiritual leader of the whole Muslim nation in Arabia as well as everywhere else Islam reached.




"The most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman."
- Prophet Muhammad

Literally, he rose to the high standards of leadership set by his own tradition: He was humble enough to listen to the complaints of his people and always hastened to meet their needs.


To the weakest among the people, he was compassionate, and considering the condition of women in those days, he was very responsive to their thoughts, feelings, and needs. He was particularly gentle, kind, and considerate toward them.



In this respect, he was very much unlike some of his Companions.

Umar ibn Al-Khattab once said:

One day I went to the Prophet and saw him smiling. "May God make you smile forever, O Messenger of God," I said and asked why he was smiling. "I smile at those women. They were chatting in front of me before you came. When they heard your voice, they all vanished," he answered, still smiling. On hearing this answer, I raised my voice and told them, "O enemies of your own selves, you are scared of me, but you are not scared of the Messenger of God, and you do not show respect to him." On hearing that, the women said, "You [Umar] are hard-hearted and strict." (Al-Bukhari )

Twin Halves of Men



The Prophet always listened to women with consideration and compassion as he valued their views and opinions not only about affairs that specifically concerned them, but also about matters of wider significance.



It was because the Prophet gave such encouragement to women that there were well-known instances in early Muslim history of some of them freely speaking out for their rights.



Following the injunctions in the Qur'an, the Prophet gave women the right to education and freedom in matters related to marriage, divorce, and property rights.




"Women are your mothers, daughters, aunts."
- Prophet Muhammad
The Prophet described women as "the twin halves of men," which emphasized the idea that their role in society is complementary to that of men. He declared that "the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman."


He taught his followers that it is God's commandment to treat women with gentleness and affection because, he said, "they are your mothers, daughters, aunts."



Women Are Not the Devil



One typical Western criticism of the Prophet is about his marriages. Compared to the Christian conception of Jesus as the "Son of God", Muhammad (peace be upon him) appears so down-to-earth and human.



If Christianity celebrates celibacy, Islam definitely celebrates marriage. And the final prophet, like the Old Testament prophets such as Abraham, Moses, and David, has proved through his own example that women do not defile men.



Indeed, Islamic spirituality is not weakened by the body, as it transcends far above the demands of the body. Also Islam, unlike Christianity, does not view the woman as the cause of the fall of man.



Respecting Mothers



The respect given to women as mothers is another aspect of "the Prophetic vision, in which kindness and loyalty to the mother, a rahmah (= mercy) to reciprocate the rahmah they themselves dispensed, is seen as an almost sacramental act" (Murad).



The Prophet said, "Paradise lies beneath the feet of mothers" (Ahmad).




"He always joined in household work and would at times mend his clothes, repair his shoes, and sweep the floor."
- Lady Aishah
Once a man came to Prophet Muhammad and asked, "O Messenger of God, which person of all the people is best entitled to kind treatment and good companionship from me?" He answered, "Your mother." The man asked, "And then?" He said, "Your mother."

The man asked again, "And after her?" He said, "Your mother." The man asked for a fourth time, "And after her?" The Prophet said, "Your father" (Al-Bukhari).

The Perfect Husband

The Prophet was a perfect model for humankind in every aspect of our life. He was the kindest husband and the most loving and caring partner to his wives.


"The best among you is the one who is best toward his wife"
- Prophet Muhammad
According to Aishah, the Prophet used to help his wives with domestic chores: "He always joined in household work and would at times mend his clothes, repair his shoes, and sweep the floor. He would milk, tether, and feed his animals and do the household shopping."
He taught his followers: "The best among you is the one who is best toward his wife" (At-Tirmidhi).

We should remember that those were the days when women were treated like slaves and were punished for the silliest mistakes. The Prophet stopped all that and gave women the rights equal to those of men.

For instance, Islam gave a wife the right to acquire and possess wealth and keep it for herself, and she had no responsibility to share the family expenses with her husband. And the husband had no legal right to any of her belongings.

The Plight of Women

In ancient times when a man died, his widow was often denied all rights to his property and she was subjected to terrible humiliation and maltreatment.


Islam believes that the one who works for widows and orphans is like one who strives in the way of God.


In certain societies, there was a tradition of immolation of the widow on the funeral pyre of her husband. Even if she was permitted to live, she was denied the right to remarry and lead a normal life.
But the Prophet himself set the example of marrying widows and divorcees; his first wife was Khadijah, a widow 15 years senior to him. And after her death, he married only widows and divorcees with the exception of Aishah.

Islam believes that the one who works for widows and orphans is like one who strives in the way of God. And we must remember that in those primitive times, a woman who did not have the support of a man was lost and ruined.

The Prophet's mercy toward women was not surprising, because Almighty God had appointed him as a mercy for the whole of creation.

A Revolutionary Man

In the Madinah society after the emigration of Muslims from Makkah established by the Prophet, women were guaranteed personal respect, the right to education, the right to enter into legal contracts, and the political right to express their views concerning public affairs.

They were also given the right to choose a husband of their liking and to reject a marriage they did not like. At the time of marriage, a woman is entitled to a suitable present (in Arabic: mahr) from her bridegroom, and she is declared free of all domestic financial responsibilities, which are the responsibility of the husband.


The husband is not to keep his wife in a state of suspense, whether at home or abroad, for a long period of time except with her consent.
It is the duty of the husband to provide his wife and children with food, clothes, a home, and medical treatment according to his financial position and income. Muslim scholars have said that if a man does not support his wife financially, then she is entitled to get a divorce.
The Prophet said that the best charity (in Arabic: sadaqah) is that spent on one's wife: forgiveness in the case of disagreement, good manners, sweet words, a smiling face, a pleasing playfulness, and an amusing mien are but some facets of this "charity."

The Prophet said, "The world is delightful, and its greatest treasure is a good woman" (Muslim).

The husband is not to stay away from his wife or keep his wife in a state of suspense, whether at home or abroad, for a long period of time except with her consent. Unreasonably long separation on the part of the husband without prior arrangement with the wife is sufficient grounds for her to obtain divorce through a judge.

Indeed, the Prophet allowed women to engage in suitable work for earning an income like men, so long as such jobs did not infringe on their dignity. He permitted them even to participate in battles: specifically to nurse the wounded soldiers and to fight alongside men.



All this was indeed revolutionary, considering the prevailing socio-cultural paradigms defining the Arabs of the time. So it was not surprising that so soon after the Prophet's time, the vestiges of the pre-Islamic era, traditions from pre-Islamic Arabia slowly returned and gained somewhat of a foothold among Muslims.



Consequently something of the misogyny that previously existed returned, which reminds us of the need for reaffirming the noble example of the Prophet, whose compassion to his wives, daughters, and women companions cannot be forgotten.

[andyman]

which kind of islam you follow? Many shades out there.

Refrain from using text speech

[farhad]

Originally posted by andyman
which kind of islam you follow? Many shades out there.

Refrain from using text speech

The true sayings and teachings of Quran in Suni version, Shia's and Wahbism are not factual. If western women want to know what rights Prophet mohammed gave to womens you would be suprised that these rights that are present now were layed out 14 centuries ago in a Desert of mecca.

For example:

1. Womens were given the choice to fight during war and nurse the wounded soldiers, when did this practise came to west?

2.The female killing was hugely practised around the world at that time, especially in Arabia, Prophet came and abolished these practise.

3.a married women is entitled to keep her maiden name.

4. The women can refuse or choose her own life partner.

5.Women were given the right to vote, I agree nowadays in Iran and Saudie this is stopped but thats not the sayings of prophet.

6.a Divorced women can remarry if she wishes, Prophet Mohammed married many times not for lust but to give security to widows and divorcees, and during this age women had to be dependant on their husbands and fathers. The women he married were twice as older than him, would a lustful man marry someone who is over 50 as the west accuse him of.

7.Womens were allowed to be political leaders, such as there are female Leader of head of state in many islamic country.

8.A woman is allowed to work in the society if she wishes and get equal pay as those of a man, and her earnings is kept to herself and the man has no access to it as it is his reponsibility to provide for the family.

These are some of those things when Channel 4 discussing womens rights totally ignored and focussed on a contradictory passage that goes against the authentic sayings of prophet Mohammed.

[andyman]

text speech? When? Show me? I never used any!!! LOL.

[andyman]

the sufi

[andyman]

You support iran and saudi arbia with there version of islam that is spreading like wildfire into the minds of young muslims?

[farhad]

Originally posted by andyman
You support iran and saudi arbia with there version of islam that is spreading like wildfire into the minds of young muslims?

When did I say I supported Iran and Saudie, I said Saudie isn't the same country 14 centuries ago, and iran are shia's who give bad name to Islam, by the way 90% of muslim population are suni's, Shaia's and Wahabist account for 5% each.

[andyman]

still its saudi money building the islamic schools to teach there islam. Maybe we need more sufi

[Lauren]

Originally posted by andyman
text speech? When? Show me? I never used any!!! LOL.

I edited it, you said "u".

[andyman]

OH MY GOD!

[farhad]

Originally posted by andyman
still its saudi money building the islamic schools to teach there islam. Maybe we need more sufi

If you want to study the rel history of prophet I suggest you look at Sahi Bhukari Hadith which is loaded on Internet, the Wahabist and Shia's reject hadith, Suni's not all follow hadith. You will get a better understanding then what edia and those fanatics teach. There is this great part in the Hadith called "Manumission of Slaves". http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/046.sbt.html

[farhad]

These are another sayings of Prophet to show all those losers who say Islam treats women with inferior manner an gives no right, this is a man who came to Prophet and lied that his wife committed illegal adultry, prophet sussed him out and got her divorced to this man, the man asked if he could have the dowrys he gave to his wife back, and listen what Mohammed says.

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 261:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:

I said to Ibn 'Umar, "If a man accuses his wife of illegal sexual intercourse (what is the judgment)?" He said, "Allah's Prophet separated the couple of Bani 'Ajlan (when the husband accused his wife for an illegal sexual intercourse). The Prophet said, 'Allah knows that one of you two IS a liar; so will one of you repent?' But they refused. He then again said, 'Allah knows that one of you two is a liar; so will one of you repent?' But they refused, whereupon he separated them by divorce." Aiyub (a sub-narrator) said: 'Amr bin Dinar said to me, "In the narration there is something which I do not see you mentioning, i.e. the husband said, "What about my money (Mahr)?' The Prophet said, "You are not entitled to take back money, for if you told the truth you have already entered upon her (and consummated your marriage with her) and if you are a liar then you are less entitled to take it back.