[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

why should the swiss solve other countries problems. this is a swiss matter and they voted on it. normal democratic politics.

lol at "pointless issue"

quite the reverse bearing in mind the architecture

I was reffering to such things as crime rates and such. Stuff every country faces

Granted they're spikes....placed on the roof. There's very little chances of injury so it isn't about a health and safty issue, it's about rascists who have used scare tactics to pass a bill that's a complete waste of time and money which could have been spent helping the citizens of the country. What's next? Banning Menorahs, Buddha statues and Sikh and Hindu architecture? Or is it only because of a few individuals which have soured the view of a whole religion?

It's their country yes and they can do what they like but I can have my own opinion and I find it said that money's been wasted on trivial stuff like this when it could be used to make the quality of life even better for the country's citizens.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm not against democracy but it's a pointless issue when you consider the real problems this world has. It's their country and they can do what they want but this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

It is only a "pointless issue" if you don't understand the significance of such a decision. A "few" minarets can pretty soon become hundreds and before you know it - it has become a problem - much harder to undo at that stage. It is about being proactive and thinking ahead and putting in place preventative measures to protect a country's culture and identity. You need to be able to see the "bigger picture".

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

It is only a "pointless issue" if you don't understand the significance of such a decision. A "few" minarets can pretty soon become hundreds and before you know it - it has become a problem - much harder to undo at that stage. It is about being proactive and thinking ahead and putting in place preventative measures to protect a country's culture and identity. You need to be able to see the "bigger picture".

But in order for it to really change the look of Sweden there'd have to be a lot of muslim architecture about, How many mosques do you think there are in Sweden in comparision to more western looking buildings? The latter by far outnumbers the former you could have a thousand spikes on a mosque yet it wouldn't make much of a difference to what a city's skyline would look like due to the fact that there aren't as many Mosques as there are western buildings.

I could have seen the point if the minarets were in a place were injury is more likely but for me personally I just don't get the fuss.

[Dr.Gonzo]

The point being: it is their country and they have spoken, whether we agree with them or not. If they don't want it, they shouldn't have to have it. End of.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dr.Gonzo

The point being: it is their country and they have spoken, whether we agree with them or not. If they don't want it, they shouldn't have to have it. End of.

Yes it is that Simple.
Public Voting on a Important Issue.


Well done the Swiss.

[WOMBAI]

The Swiss make their own decisions - it is their country! Who the hell does anyone else think they are trying to tell them what they should and shouldn't do.

[InOne]

This is not even really a debate. The Swiss have more backbone than the UK do. That is all.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Originally Posted by InOne

This is not even really a debate. The Swiss have more backbone than the UK do. That is all.

Yes. Our leaders know what the answer would be if we were given similar power to vote on cultural movements.

You try to please everyone, you please no one.

[arista]

Originally Posted by InOne

This is not even really a debate. The Swiss have more backbone than the UK do. That is all.

As a Debate I started with the News Story
it has done well.


And The Swiss do not have Pathetic
One Eyed Scottish Brown wrecking their nation.

[arista]

Dezzy does not live there
so of course he can not see what the fuss is.

Its a Small Nation
and it Ain't a Muslim nation.

Its that simple.

[setanta]

The initiators justify their point of view by stating parts of later Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's 1997 speech, which holds: "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."

Found that extract a little startling to tell you the truth and I believe Switzerland's opposition to the building of minarets is a reaction to the intolerant tendencies of Islam towards other creeds or ways of life, which is in direct conflict to how peacefully the Swiss like to coexist with their neighbours and other nations, continually holding onto their neutral policies.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by setanta

The initiators justify their point of view by stating parts of later Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's 1997 speech, which holds: "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."

Found that extract a little startling to tell you the truth and I believe Switzerland's opposition to the building of minarets is a reaction to the intolerant tendencies of Islam towards other creeds or ways of life, which is in direct conflict to how peacefully the Swiss like to coexist with their neighbours and other nations, continually holding onto their neutral policies.

[arista]

Yes the Turks are Trouble
and Still not in the €uro.

[Tom4784]

It's naive to think that Race didn't play a part in this campaign look at the posters, they could have just gone with the spike motif but they also added a muslim woman but not just any woman, a woman in the dreaded Burka! The codes and signs speak for themselves. The campaign be be against the minarets but muslims are presented as the villains here and since a large majority of muslims are arabic Sweden's taking away the right for them to have a proper hall of worship, it's really no different to taking away christian decorations from a church.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's naive to think that Race didn't play a part in this campaign look at the posters, they could have just gone with the spike motif but they also added a muslim woman but not just any woman, a woman in the dreaded Burka! The codes and signs speak for themselves. The campaign be be against the minarets but muslims are presented as the villains here and since a large majority of muslims are arabic Sweden's taking away the right for them to have a proper hall of worship, it's really no different to taking away christian decorations from a church.

They have Mosques, it is a spike for god sake. No rights are being taken away. You are looking into this way too deeply.

[arista]

Originally Posted by InOne

They have Mosques, it is a spike for god sake. No rights are being taken away. You are looking into this way too deeply.

Yes Dezzy does that all the time.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's naive to think that Race didn't play a part in this campaign look at the posters, they could have just gone with the spike motif but they also added a muslim woman but not just any woman, a woman in the dreaded Burka! The codes and signs speak for themselves. The campaign be be against the minarets but muslims are presented as the villains here and since a large majority of muslims are arabic Sweden's taking away the right for them to have a proper hall of worship, it's really no different to taking away christian decorations from a church.

Yes, the pictures were probably a bit emotive - because people feel very strongly about their culture - Muslims more so than most! Do only Muslims have that right in your book! The Muslim religion is not as tolerant towards other religions as they expect others to be towards theirs. That is simply double-standards. Why would you support that? And please answer a question - if their religion is so important to them - why don't they live in an Islamic country. Simple! Nobody is stopping them praying or even building mosques - just not the minarets! It is the Muslims making an issue of it!!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Yes, the pictures were probably a bit emotive - because people feel very strongly about their culture - Muslims more so than most! Do only Muslims have that right in your book! The Muslim religion is not as tolerant towards other religions as they expect others to be towards theirs. That is simply double-standards. Why would you support that? And please answer a question - if their religion is so important to them - why don't they live in an Islamic country. Simple! Nobody is stopping them praying or even building mosques - just not the minarets! It is the Muslims making an issue of it!!

Not all muslims are intolerant, if you base your opinion of an entire religion on the actions of a few then all religions and creeds are bloodthirsty and evil and none moreso then Christianity, If we look back in history Christianity have slaughtered millions, burnt women to death for no reason and have looked down and restricted rights to various types people in socieity. If we are to take that approach in modern times then should branches of Christianity like the Westboro church should represent the religion as a whole? Are all Christians extreme homophobes that preach hatred to all creeds apart from themselves? No, and it's the same thing for muslims. There's extremists in every religion but you can't judge the whole on a minority.

The point about Islamic countries is laughable and quite intolerable towards in itself which is quite contradictory to what you are trying to say. If a country doesn't want different creeds and cultures then they should close the country's borders. People emmigrate for plenty of reasons, thousands of Brittons move to other countries for work and such and it's the same for most people who come to the UK. People don't always have the luxory of choice.

To say your main point is about how intolerant muslims are you're not doing yourself any favours.

What if in a muslim country they passed a law that churches couldn't have a steeple or a crucifix or a bell or something? There'd be outrage in the Chrsitian community, this is the same thing. Empathy is a key point, put yourselves in other people's shoes.

Now I could understand from a voters perspective if the minarets were in a more accident prone place but they aren't. and I could understand it from a culture perspective but there isn't enough mosques in your average city to make any difference to it.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Not all muslims are intolerant, if you base your opinion of an entire religion on the actions of a few then all religions and creeds are bloodthirsty and evil and none moreso then Christianity, If we look back in history Christianity have slaughtered millions, burnt women to death for no reason and have looked down and restricted rights to various types people in socieity. If we are to take that approach in modern times then should branches of Christianity like the Westboro church should represent the religion as a whole? Are all Christians extreme homophobes that preach hatred to all creeds apart from themselves? No, and it's the same thing for muslims. There's extremists in every religion but you can't judge the whole on a minority.

The point about Islamic countries is laughable and quite intolerable towards in itself which is quite contradictory to what you are trying to say. If a country doesn't want different creeds and cultures then they should close the country's borders. People emmigrate for plenty of reasons, thousands of Brittons move to other countries for work and such and it's the same for most people who come to the UK. People don't always have the luxory of choice.

To say your main point is about how intolerant muslims are you're not doing yourself any favours.

What if in a muslim country they passed a law that churches couldn't have a steeple or a crucifix or a bell or something? There'd be outrage in the Chrsitian community, this is the same thing. Empathy is a key point, put yourselves in other people's shoes.

Now I could understand from a voters perspective if the minarets were in a more accident prone place but they aren't. and I could understand it from a culture perspective but there isn't enough mosques in your average city to make any difference to it.

Wer'e not talking about history - every religion/culture has it skeletons in closets - we are talking now. Most religions/cultures have moved with the times to some extent - and few religions in this day and age still stone women to death.

Of course there are extremists in every religion - but the Muslim religion has, by far, a much greater number - the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are evidence of that.

And most people who choose to live in another country - assimilate into the culture of that country and adopt its way of life. That is respectful. Do you really think that any woman, including western women, could go to Muslim countries like Saudi or Afganistan and walk around freely and safely in clothing that did not cover them in the way the Muslim religion dictates. We are expected to show respect and cover up in their country - so why do they not show the same respect for our codes of dress - and insist on wearing clothing (the burkha) that does not fit in with our way of life and causes much controversy.

Switzerland has made it perfectly clear that Muslims are welcome in Switzerland as long as they are prepared to assimilate into Swiss society - a perfectly reasonable request.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Wer'e not talking about history - every religion/culture has it skeletons in closets - we are talking now. Most religions/cultures have moved with the times to some extent - and few religions in this day and age still stone women to death.

Of course there are extremists in every religion - but the Muslim religion has, by far, a much greater number - the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are evidence of that.

And most people who choose to live in another country - assimilate into the culture of that country and adopt its way of life. That is respectful. Do you really think that any woman, including western women, could go to Muslim countries like Saudi or Afganistan and walk around freely and safely in clothing that did not cover them in the way the Muslim religion dictates. We are expected to show respect and cover up in their country - so why do they not show the same respect for our codes of dress - and insist on wearing clothing (the burkha) that does not fit in with our way of life and causes much controversy.

Switzerland has made it perfectly clear that Muslims are welcome in Switzerland as long as they are prepared to assimilate into Swiss society - a perfectly reasonable request.

Right so muslims born in Britain have no right to celebrate their culture in the country they were born in? What exactly should they and shouldnt they be allowed to do? And how is your life affected by it really? Im sure you get outraged everytime you pick up the Daily Mail (cant be good for you blood pressure!), but in reality is your life affected by others having cultural and religious freedom? Is you getting on with your cultural business affected?

[NettoSuperstar!]

You Wombai and Trumpet are constantly stating that muslims are taking over, British culture is threatened, that they dont make concessions, that they are largely fanatical etc when evidence points to the fact theyre not generally at all. Thats prejuidice. And you slag off muslim countries that are religiously intolerant (ignore the fact that most muslim countries are not) and then want us to be like that??? Thank god most of us Brits are not so reactionary and hysterical as the Swiss.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

You Wombai and Trumpet are constantly stating that muslims are taking over, British culture is threatened, that they dont make concessions, that they are largely fanatical etc when evidence points to the fact theyre not generally at all. Thats prejuidice. And you slag off muslim countries that are religiously intolerant (ignore the fact that most muslim countries are not) and then want us to be like that??? Thank god most of us Brits are not so reactionary and hysterical as the Swiss.

Well you don't speak for 'most' really do you. We all have different views yet you merge the 3 of ours together. Obviously they are not all largely fanatical, but the ones that are make a big impact. The British culture is not what it used to be. The Brits fault as well by the way!! And the only Muslim country I have seen slagged off is Saudi Arabia, which is brutal to say the least.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by InOne

Well you don't speak for 'most' really do you. We all have different views yet you merge the 3 of ours together. Obviously they are not all largely fanatical, but the ones that are make a big impact. The British culture is not what it used to be. The Brits fault as well by the way!! And the only Muslim country I have seen slagged off is Saudi Arabia, which is brutal to say the least.

Yeh but you use Saudi Arabia to imply that muslim countries are like that and that they are like that because of the religion, not true. Then you use it as an example of why we should take a leaf out of their book and do the same. hypocritical. You 3 say pretty much the same things, and its not that I wont accept your opinion, I wont accept ignorance and lies

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4137990.stm most Brits back multiculturalism

[InOne]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Yeh but you use Saudi Arabia to imply that muslim countries are like that and that they are like that because of the religion, not true. Then you use it as an example of why we should take a leaf out of their book and do the same. hypocritical. You 3 say pretty much the same things, and its not that I wont accept your opinion, I wont accept ignorance and lies

Well seen as Saudi is under Sharia law it is to do with Religion, so that is not a lie. Who is implying anything??? You putting words into my mouth. And what would I have to gain by lying?
So what does it mean to be British to you then Netto?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by InOne

Well seen as Saudi is under Sharia law it is to do with Religion, so that is not a lie. Who is implying anything??? You putting words into my mouth. And what would I have to gain by lying?
So what does it mean to be British to you then Netto?

To me being British is about tolerance, being educated, wanting to work towards a better society, desire to take care of the most vunerable, good sense of humour, culturally rich and diverse and open to new experiences and constantly developing as people and as a society...and you?