[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by rick-roll

It's obvious that a lot of people don't just have a problem with the ground zero issue but with islam itself. To think that muslims are a threat or that this mosque is an offensive attack is asinine. It is not being built on or near sacred/holy ground and doesn't intend to represent hatred or violence. It's a muslim community centre ffs. The pie chart was just an example of how America prioritize their focus on the wrong things.

Protest against muslims because the extremists were muslims. Invade Iraq because the extremists were Iraqis....oh wait a minute, they were Saudis. A nation that shares a special relationship (and oil supply) with the US.

The whole thing is just fear-mongering and ignorance spurred on by right-wing extremist groups and idiots who can't think for themselves.

I aGREE, its anti islamic for sure, it has nothing to do with ground zero at all. Same thing is going on all over Europe, where they have all kinds of reasons why mosques shouldnt be built (minaret is too tall, the mosque is too big etcc, all kinds of Bull****) but thats what they decide to use as an excuse for this one.
My point is, let them have this one! If its such a big deal, let them have it, and they wont have anything to complain about whatsoever. Thats why I said, just go buid it a little farther away. The people upset, will still be upset, except this time, they wont have an excuse, other than anti islamic! They cant hide behind the ground zero excuse.

[WOMBAI]

As Muslim extremists were responsible for 9/11 - then of course there is a link to Muslims - and the building of a Muslim mosque is going to cause pain and insult to thousands of people!

A moderate Muslim would surely empathise with that and want to show some respect - not to mention - to do something that is bound to be perceived as very provocative in such fragile times is incredibly insensitive - why would moderate Muslims want to damage their own chances of successful integration into American society this way! It is asking for trouble - and seems in very poor taste!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

A moderate Muslim would surely empathise with that and want to show some respect - not to mention - to do something that is bound to be perceived as very provocative in such fragile times is incredibly insensitive - why would moderate Muslims want to damage their own chances of successful integration into American society this way! It is asking for trouble - and seems in very poor taste!

Yes because moderate and casual muslims are REALLY rallying behind the building of this aren't they? Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they don't have sense and anyone with sense knows that this is going to cause violence towards any innocent muslims foolish enough to go to that mosque.

Not all muslims are in on some plan to convert everyone and everything and not all muslims are supporting this.

That's what I hate about topics like this, millions of people get demonified due to the actions of a few. Muslims are people just like us. They aren't one single concience that's got an evil agenda for our way of living and they aren't some sort of Sci Fi threat. I can guarantee that there's many muslims opposing, you just won't hear their points of view because it doesn't fit in with the narrative. You'll only hear from the extremists because that causes fear and fear sells newspapers. It's called a Moral Panic, look it up.

Anyway now I've got that out of the way, my opinion is that it shouldn't be built, NOT because of the ignorant masses baying for blood but for any practioners that could get harmed in the crossfire.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yes because moderate and casual muslims are REALLY rallying behind the building of this aren't they? Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they don't have sense and anyone with sense knows that this is going to cause violence towards any innocent muslims foolish enough to go to that mosque.

Not all muslims are in on some plan to convert everyone and everything and not all muslims are supporting this.

That's what I hate about topics like this, millions of people get demonified due to the actions of a few. Muslims are people just like us. They aren't one single concience that's got an evil agenda for our way of living and they aren't some sort of Sci Fi threat. I can guarantee that there's many muslims opposing, you just won't hear their points of view because it doesn't fit in with the narrative. You'll only hear from the extremists because that causes fear and fear sells newspapers. It's called a Moral Panic, look it up.

Anyway now I've got that out of the way, my opinion is that it shouldn't be built, NOT because of the ignorant masses baying for blood but for any practioners that could get harmed in the crossfire.

Don't patronise me - you're not the expert you seem to think you are! My views are based on many things - not what I read in the Daily Mail or any other paper! What an arrogant remark!

I am not saying all Muslims, moderate or otherwise are supporting this, but clearly it is not just extremists behind this! What has moral panic got to do with anything - not about fear, just about commonsense prevailing over bad taste!

Regardless of anything else - it is disrespecful to build a mosque so close to ground zero! 9/11 was carried out by Muslims - regardless of nationality - and that is what is going to upset, not only the relatives of those who died, but many others as well!

To then go and build a hugh symbol of the Muslim religion so close to the site of such an atrocity - is laughing in the face of the Americans - including those that died and their families! Of course it can't be allowed! In the end - common sense and common decency - rule the day!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Don't patronise me - you're not the expert you seem to think you are! My views are based on many things - not what I read in the Daily Mail or any other paper! What an arrogant remark!

I am not saying all Muslims, moderate or otherwise are supporting this, but clearly it is not just extremists behind this! What has moral panic got to do with anything - not about fear, just about commonsense prevailing over bad taste!

Regardless of anything else - it is disrespecful to build a mosque so close to ground zero! 9/11 was carried out by Muslims - regardless of nationality - and that is what is going to upset, not only the relatives of those who died, but many others as well!

To then go and build a hugh symbol of the Muslim religion so close to the site of such an atrocity - is laughing in the face of the Americans - including those that died and their families! Of course it can't be allowed! In the end - common sense and common decency - rule the day!

Moral Panic doesn't just mean panic or fear, it can mean stirring up anger as well. Think of the Jonathon Ross phone scandal, that was something small until the Daily Mail picked it up and stirred the pot, that was anger rather then fear but it can still be classed as a moral panic. If it wasn't for the media incorrectly reporting that it'd be built on Ground Zero would we be aware of it at all?

We're all guilty of being misled by Media, i'm not being arrogant like you always say I am. I'm just saying it's the main reason why Islam is so demonised because the media has stirred the pot for years. If another terrorist attack were to happen that was committed by a different group we'd all be in fear of them and the media would have a new target.

But I agree with Shasown and Wildcat, I just hope the more hardcore opposition don't do anything stupid.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Moral Panic doesn't just mean panic or fear, it can mean stirring up anger as well. Think of the Jonathon Ross phone scandal, that was something small until the Daily Mail picked it up and stirred the pot, that was anger rather then fear but it can still be classed as a moral panic. If it wasn't for the media incorrectly reporting that it'd be built on Ground Zero would we be aware of it at all?

We're all guilty of being misled by Media, i'm not being arrogant like you always say I am. I'm just saying it's the main reason why Islam is so demonised because the media has stirred the pot for years. If another terrorist attack were to happen that was committed by a different group we'd all be in fear of them and the media would have a new target.

But I agree with Shasown and Wildcat, I just hope the more hardcore opposition don't do anything stupid.

Oh I see - 9/11 and 7/7 were simply fabricated or exaggerated by the media - they didn't really happen - or perhaps they weren't perpetrated by Muslims!

We are all just idiots who have got the wrong end of the stick! I see!

Yes lets hope they don't sink to the depths of the depraved behaviour of extremist Muslims!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Oh I see - 9/11 and 7/7 were simply fabricated or exaggerated by the media - they didn't really happen - or perhaps they weren't perpetrated by Muslims!

We are all just idiots who have got the wrong end of the stick! I see!

Once again, you get it wrong (an increasingly common occurence). I'm talking about the demonisation of many innocent people since those events, I didn't even mention anything about 9/11 and 7/7 so you can stop playing that game right there. At the end of the day it was a few Saudi Arabian Muslims that attacked those who aren't representative of an entire faith, just like the peadophile priests aren't representative of Catholicism or the IRA a representative of Ireland.

I'm talking about the targeting of muslims since then in the general media, they're being made out to be some sort of heinous bond villains and innocent people are being made to suffer for it. I've seen it with my own eyes and it ain't right. Good people who just happen to be muslim are being persecuted by the public for their faith and I don't agree with that. I'm not saying all muslims are innocent, there are extremists and people who do support those horrendous actions but that doesn't mean the whole faith has to suffer. I'm sorry but I've seen the kind of hatred the media stirs up and it sickens me.

Target the individuals for the crimes they commit, not the whole.

[Shasown]

I am sure Mayor Bloomberg and co notes the concern of people who violently disagree with this mosque being built. However it is a reasonable distance away from the actual site of what was the Twin Towers.

Initially the opponents of the mosque made out it was on the site of the atrocity, in order to make capital out of perceived public distaste, however common sense has prevailed.

Incidentally for those saying it is laughing in the face of common decency, what distance would you recommend, do you also recommend creating an exclusion zome for any muslims who live or work near the site of the 11/9 disaster?

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I am sure Mayor Bloomberg and co notes the concern of people who violently disagree with this mosque being built. However it is a reasonable distance away from the actual site of what was the Twin Towers.

Initially the opponents of the mosque made out it was on the site of the atrocity, in order to make capital out of perceived public distaste, however common sense has prevailed.

Incidentally for those saying it is laughing in the face of common decency, what distance would you recommend, do you also recommend creating an exclusion zome for any muslims who live or work near the site of the 11/9 disaster?

HOw did I not see your post? You said almost exactly what I did!

[WOMBAI]

It looks pretty close to me - Daily Mail or not! Too close in my opinion - and obviously those of many others!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ound-Zero.html

[Wildcat!]

This mosque is probably gonna go ahead, it has been approved and everything, and no laws, or constitutional parts, is gonna stop it. It would be anti american, to even consider that. I dont want the mosque to be stopped, because of some law, or judge ruling. That would open up all kinds of possibilities of intolerance towards muslims in the future. So that better not happen, because then you are really asking for troubles. So its only up to the project leaders.

Like I said, seeing peoples views on it, I dont think it would be a bad thing to build it somewhere else. And that brings up another point: HOw far away is good enough then? BEcause as far as I know, the mosque isnt visible from Ground zero. What would be the appropriate distance? If you think about that, it sounds pretty stupid to be honest! I am pretty sure that whoever opposes this mosque wont be happy regardless of where its built. The most vigorous opponent, dont live anywhere near Manhattan. They will still see mosques, not even that far away from ground zero. So really it wont change a thing. Except, this gives people justification for showing indignation and intolerance.

The whole point of the mosque was to open up the islamic culture, to a greater audience. NOt to convert anyone, but to educate them more about what Islam really is. A lot of non muslims complain that they dont know what goes on in mosques, and would like to know. This was a perfect opportunity, because it would be completely opened to anyone of any faith and any background, and I suspect everything would be in English, apart from prayers. The mosque is maybe 10% of the project.

Another interesting statistics, and that relates to my point about the vast majority of opponets: New yorkers, dissaprove of the project with a very small majority, like 53 to 47, and residents of Manhattan, approve of it, with a large majority, about 60 to 40. And that tells you, the people who are most concerned, are the once who have no problem with it. Once again, its the one who really wouldnt be affected at all, that shows its intolerance, and that includes myself of course.

A lot of my friends in the US, muslims and otherwise, after hearing my views on this, think Ive seen too many instances of religious intolerance (mostly islamic) in Europe, that I am willing to compromise, and let this happen here. Maybe they have a point. I might have felt differently, 3 years ago. Thats why the law would never stop such a thing in the US. It can only be voluntary! I am thankful for that!

[BB_Eye]

Interestingly, the approval rate for this mosque is even higher in NYC than it is in New York state as a whole. Both polls had more people in favour than against. I'm not saying that decisions should be made on the basis of public approval alone, but it does show that New Yorkers are not personally offended by this and the Ground Zero Mosque label is very misleading. It's not as if they're building it on Ground Zero itself or even within view of Ground Zero.

On reflection, I don't see this doing any harm and the meaning behind the name Cordoba House are quite positive, hearkening back to the peaceful co-existence of muslims and Christians in medieval Spain.

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Interestingly, the approval rate for this mosque is even higher in NYC than it is in New York state as a whole. Both polls had more people in favour than against. I'm not saying that decisions should be made on the basis of public approval alone, but it does show that New Yorkers are not personally offended by this and the Ground Zero Mosque label is very misleading. It's not as if they're building it on Ground Zero itself or even within view of Ground Zero.

On reflection, I don't see this doing any harm and the meaning behind the name Cordoba House are quite positive, hearkening back to the peaceful co-existence of muslims and Christians in medieval Spain.

Exactly, I stated that in my post. And if you isolate Manhattan alone, they are in favor with a big majority! Its the people less affected that are acting all offended, in the name of the locals.
And yeah, more and more, I really dont see the big deal in this mosque. My only concern, is having people act violently towards the mosque, or the people going in there in general!

I didnt know about the significance of the name. I knew the reason for the mosque was to bridge the gap, and people have stomped all over it! Its a shame!

[setanta]

The reality is that if it's goes ahead there will be protests, if not more. It's close enought to the ground zero for it to be viewed as a disrespectful act.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Haha the usual suspects creating a storm in a teacup to attack muslims generally! Its like effin groundhog day here

[InOne]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Haha the usual suspects creating a storm in a teacup to attack muslims generally! Its like effin groundhog day here

And as usual, you have to real argument. Just make silly little comments.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by InOne

And as usual, you have to real argument. Just make silly little comments.

What? real argument? dont make me laff...all the freaks acting like theyre constructing a giant mosque covering ground zero with minarets as high as the twin towers, when the sensible, normal, actual, common sense might offer you a clue to reality is, it is being built on the site of an old coat factory several blocks away...get real

[InOne]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

What? real argument? dont make me laff...all the freaks acting like theyre constructing a giant mosque covering ground zero with minarets as high as the twin towers, when the sensible, normal, actual, common sense might offer you a clue to reality is, it is being built on the site of an old coat factory several blocks away...get real

Well I'm sure you've read the thread and seen my views on it. I never even mentioned Muslims or extremists that much. We'll just have to see what happens...

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by InOne

Well I'm sure you've read the thread and seen my views on it. I never even mentioned Muslims or extremists that much. We'll just have to see what happens...

I'll tell you what will happen a few right wing extremists and a few islamic extremists will try and stir up as much publicity and hate as they can and everyone else will just get on with their lives seeing it for what it is...much ado about nowt!

[Omen]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

What? real argument? dont make me laff...all the freaks acting like theyre constructing a giant mosque covering ground zero with minarets as high as the twin towers, when the sensible, normal, actual, common sense might offer you a clue to reality is, it is being built on the site of an old coat factory several blocks away...get real

I agree, and also agree with one of the other posters above (who is muslim) who said build them elsewhere if they are causing offence. And to the poster who said not to tarnish everyone with the same brush.


The problem is with Islam and how the bombers invoked/invoke their religion, calling their struggle a jihad or holy war, much like the crusades were a holy war in their time. On the other side, George Bush invoked God on his side. To his credit Pope John Paul criticised the invasion of Iraq, and so the Catholic Church disowned it from the very top. Maybe muslims could excommunictate extremists like the cleric Al Hamsa.

There are 2 sides to this, and neither is absolutely right or wrong.

On balance, I'd say build the mosque.

Here's a point: hypothetically if there was to be a religous memorial on the ground zero site, I wouldn't exclude symbols/symbolism of Islam or any religion. In fact, if there was such a memorial it would be good for reconciliation; it would show solidarity with the victims, some of whom were muslims (I'm sure).

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Omen

I agree, and also agree with one of the other posters above (who is muslim) who said build them elsewhere if they are causing offence. And to the poster who said not to tarnish everyone with the same brush.


The problem is with Islam and how the bombers invoked/invoke their religion, calling their struggle a jihad or holy war, much like the crusades were a holy war in their time. On the other side, George Bush invoked God on his side. To his credit Pope John Paul criticised the invasion of Iraq, and so the Catholic Church disowned it from the very top. Maybe muslims could excommunictate extremists like the cleric Al Hamsa.

There are 2 sides to this, and neither is absolutely right or wrong.

On balance, I'd say build the mosque.

Here's a point: hypothetically if there was to be a religous memorial on the ground zero site, I wouldn't exclude symbols/symbolism of Islam or any religion. In fact, if there was such a memorial it would be good for reconciliation; it would show solidarity with the victims, some of whom were muslims (I'm sure).

Exactly and not to mention the muslim fire fighters, Dr's, Nurses etc that saved peoples lives on this day, to say a mosque cant be built anywhere near the site is to say all of islam and all muslims are responsible for 9/11 which is just ridiculous

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Haha the usual suspects creating a storm in a teacup to attack muslims generally! Its like effin groundhog day here

Isnt it though? YOu can always guess, who will be the highest posters, on a thread which have anything negative to do with Islam or immigrants!

Funny how that works out!

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

Isnt it though? YOu can always guess, who will be the highest posters, on a thread which have anything negative to do with Islam or immigrants!

Funny how that works out!

Islam for me. Not immigrants. And it's not a problem with Muslims it's a problem with the religion. Nothing wrong with that, unless you're against free speech of course...

[Wildcat!]

Originally Posted by InOne

Islam for me. Not immigrants. And it's not a problem with Muslims it's a problem with the religion. Nothing wrong with that, unless you're against free speech of course...

oh NO! FREE SPEECH AWAY!
MOst people dont mind, and it aint gonna stop it, so happy speeching!!!

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Wildcat!

oh NO! FREE SPEECH AWAY!
MOst people dont mind, and it aint gonna stop it, so happy speeching!!!

Cool. But it just seems Muslims take it more personally than say a Christian would (I don't like any Religion by the way). The Muslim would assume I had a problem with them, when it's not the case. Just the way it comes across to me anyway.