About Us ThisisBigBrother.com

Jack_ · 07-02-2013, 12:24 AM

Indeed it is about gay marriage, and you appear to be implying that such legislation should be pushed back further in order to satisfy the needs of the rest of the electorate, to which I'm saying the battle to get this day to arrive has been far too long and difficult for those involved for us just to turn around and say 'ah well it should've been done another day tbh!', the wait has been far too long. The interests of this particular minority group are, in this instance, more important than anything else.

Jack_ · 07-02-2013, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

Of course it does - we live in a democracy

That's another debate entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

where an oppressed and unequal minority has won substantial rights but where the interests of the majority hold sway.

Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

This issue has gone on for far too long to just be brushed aside. Once it's dealt with, and LGBT have been given the equality they so rightly deserve, then, just as I hope and understand too, the focus can return to the other issues facing the UK. I am no Tory, and I too certainly question whether this is a ploy by Cameron to deflect attention away from other coalition policies, but quite frankly I couldn't care less - pushing this legislation forward is much more important than endless cynicism.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

Indeed it is about gay marriage, and you appear to be implying that such legislation should be pushed back further in order to satisfy the needs of the rest of the electorate, to which I'm saying the battle to get this day to arrive has been far too long and difficult for those involved for us just to turn around and say 'ah well it should've been done another day tbh!', the wait has been far too long. The interests of this particular minority group are, in this instance, more important than anything else.

No, they're not.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

That's another debate entirely.

Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

This issue has gone on for far too long to just be brushed aside. Once it's dealt with, and LGBT have been given the equality they so rightly deserve, then, just as I hope and understand too, the focus can return to the other issues facing the UK. I am no Tory, and I too certainly question whether this is a ploy by Cameron to deflect attention away from other coalition policies, but quite frankly I couldn't care less - pushing this legislation forward is much more important than endless cynicism.

Quite frankly, on this issue, the electorate couldn't care less.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ervative-party

Quote:

The politics of same-sex marriage provide a drama at two levels. One is the issue itself; the other is the impact on voters of the dispute inside the Conservative party.

As for the intrinsic merits of the issue, most people back a change in the law to allow same-sex couples to marry. YouGov's latest poll for the Sunday Times finds that 55% support reform, while 36% oppose it.

Not only is opposition to reform a minority view; it's also an issue that commands the passions of only a tiny number. We asked people which three or four issues, out of a list of 15, "will be important to you in deciding how you vote at the next election". The top three are the economy (56%), immigration (42%) and health (26%). Same-sex marriage comes 12th, cited by just 7%. And that 7% divides 4:3 in saying they would be "more likely" rather than "less likely" to vote for a party that supports same-sex marriage.

In short, this is not an issue that will decide the next election. Politicians who claim to form their views by "listening to voters" should be wary of employing "my postbag" as a reason to resist gay marriage. This is one of those controversies – fox-hunting a decade ago was another – where the number and intensity of letter-writers bears no relation to the views of the wider public.

Glenn. · 07-02-2013, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

This issue has gone on for far too long to just be brushed aside. Once it's dealt with, and LGBT have been given the equality they so rightly deserve, then, just as I hope and understand too, the focus can return to the other issues facing the UK. I am no Tory, and I too certainly question whether this is a ploy by Cameron to deflect attention away from other coalition policies, but quite frankly I couldn't care less - pushing this legislation forward is much more important than endless cynicism.

I'm not one for politics but since the Coalition began running this country, passing this bill seems to be the only good thing they've actually done.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

and your experience?

Glenn. · 07-02-2013, 01:01 AM

Why should gay marriage be pushed aside though? That's what I don't get.

Jack_ · 07-02-2013, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

No, they're not.

Yes, they are. A marginalised section of society's opportunity to bring themselves up to the level of the rest of the country who can already get married is of much greater importance than issues facing the majority of the electorate. Issues that, whilst important, can wait - especially considering this piece of legislation has had just about enough of a wait, thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

Quite frankly, on this issue, the electorate couldn't care less.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ervative-party

You're not getting it are you? No opinion poll or statistic is going to change the fact that regardless of your political beliefs, what you consider to be pressing issues facing this country, whether you support same sex marriage or not - this is a long overdue piece of legislation that a minority group have waited decades for and it is essential that it is passed sooner rather than later (as it should have been passed years ago), so that equality prevails, bigotry is given a kicking and we as a society can move on and this no longer has to be an issue.

Jack_ · 07-02-2013, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

and your experience?

...which is completely irrelevant considering the debate here is over the lack of experiences the majority of the apathetic electorate have had on this issue. I'm not apathetic to this bill, therefore I am not part of this majority that you continually keep referring to.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn

Why should gay marriage be pushed aside though? That's what I don't get.

The issue, AFAIC, is not that it should be pushed aside but that Cameron has brought gay marriage to the fore on a pretext that was neither in the Conservative Party manifesto nor given to the government as a mandate by the electorate - since well over 40 election promises have already been broken, why has Cameron placed so much emphasis on the success, and publicity, of an issue which concerns almost none of the electorate but which antagonises his own party while satisfying the aims of the opposition?

Omah · 07-02-2013, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

...which is completely irrelevant considering the debate here is over the lack of experiences the majority of the apathetic electorate have had on this issue. I'm not apathetic to this bill, therefore I am not part of this majority that you continually keep referring to.

You were, apparently, quoting other people's experiences, presumably because you could not draw on your own, then criticising the electorate for a lack of experience, which would appear to be your own dilemma.

Glenn. · 07-02-2013, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

The issue, AFAIC, is not that it should be pushed aside but that Cameron has brought gay marriage to the fore on a pretext that was neither in the Conservative Party manifesto nor given to the government as a mandate by the electorate - since well over 40 election promises have already been broken, why has Cameron placed so much emphasis on the success, and publicity, of an issue which concerns almost none of the electorate but which antagonises his own party while satisfying the aims of the opposition?

Its the govt. Since when do they stick to anything they promise?

And you say it concerns almost none of the electorate. I think the LGBT community would disagree with that completely, and to suggest such a thing is absurd.

Jack_ · 07-02-2013, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

You were, apparently, quoting other people's experiences, presumably because you could not draw on your own, then criticising the electorate for a lack of experience, which would appear to be your own dilemma.

Again, you're missing the point.

You: Quoting opinion polls that are supposed to show the lack of current interest towards this issue by the majority of the electorate.

Me: Explaining how it's likely that they're disinterested because it doesn't directly affect them (that's not to say they disagree with the legislation, they are merely apathetic towards it, at least at the moment) - they're not LGBT (and the majority aren't) and so the chances are that they won't have had much experience with LGBT campaigns. Some will have, but the majority won't, and that is how I would explain their supposed lack of current interest in this bill, and why they regard other issues as more important.

In fact, it's one thing even having this bill passed, but the day that a LGBT issue becomes the main concern of the majority of the British public, over other issues that you have raised, will be even more of a historic moment. That day, as sad as it is, is still quite a way off I believe.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

Yes, they are. A marginalised section of society's opportunity to bring themselves up to the level of the rest of the country who can already get married is of much greater importance than issues facing the majority of the electorate. Issues that, whilst important, can wait - especially considering this piece of legislation has had just about enough of a wait, thanks.

You're not getting it are you? No opinion poll or statistic is going to change the fact that regardless of your political beliefs, what you consider to be pressing issues facing this country, whether you support same sex marriage or not - this is a long overdue piece of legislation that a minority group have waited decades for and it is essential that it is passed sooner rather than later (as it should have been passed years ago), so that equality prevails, bigotry is given a kicking and we as a society can move on and this no longer has to be an issue.

"You're not getting it are you?"

It may be a "Big Issue" for you, but if you can't see the importance of other issues to the majority of the electorate then that makes you a bigot, too.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack_

Again, you're missing the point.

You: Quoting opinion polls that are supposed to show the lack of current interest towards this issue by the majority of the electorate.

Me: Explaining how it's likely that they're disinterested because it doesn't directly affect them (that's not to say they disagree with the legislation, they are merely apathetic towards it, at least at the moment) - they're not LGBT (and the majority aren't) and so the chances are that they won't have had much experience with LGBT campaigns. Some will have, but the majority won't, and that is how I would explain their supposed lack of current interest in this bill, and why they regard other issues as more important.

In fact, it's one thing even having this bill passed, but the day that a LGBT issue becomes the main concern of the majority of the British public, over other issues that you have raised, will be even more of a historic moment. That day, as sad as it is, is still quite a way off I believe.

OTOH, Kizzy believes that Cameron has the public backing in support of the issue.

So which is it ?

IMO, "they are merely apathetic towards it", as you say, and as the poll proves.

The bill will now get lost in the House of Lords for a few years and the "Big Issue", having distracted the punters for a few days, will assume its rank in the interests of the electorate (currently 12th, IIRC).

Omah · 07-02-2013, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn

And you say it concerns almost none of the electorate. I think the LGBT community would disagree with that completely, and to suggest such a thing is absurd.

No, it isn't ..... it's borne out be facts.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#axzz2K2j76vX1

Quote:

Marriage rate falls to its lowest level since records began

Marriage has slumped to its lowest level since records were first kept more than 150 years ago, official figures have revealed.

The proportion of couples tying the knot has fallen back into line with its declining long-term trend following a clampdown on sham weddings.

The popularity of marriage has been waning since 1973.

The Office for National Statistics said the long-term fall in the popularity of marriage was continuing, with millions of couples choosing instead to live together and delay having a family. The figures show the number of weddings in England and Wales dropped by more than 28,000, from 273,070 to 244,710.

The fall brought the marriage rate, the number of people marrying compared to the population as a whole, to its lowest level since records were first kept.

The proportion of married people among the adult population is now only a fraction over a half, at 50.3 per cent.

This figure compares with 54 per cent in 1997 and more than two thirds in the 1970s.

Nearly half the electorate aren't bothered about marriage at all and that proportion is set to increase.

Kizzy · 07-02-2013, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omah

OTOH, Kizzy believes that Cameron has the public backing in support of the issue.

So which is it ?

IMO, "they are merely apathetic towards it", as you say, and as the poll proves.

The bill will now get lost in the House of Lords for a few years and the "Big Issue", having distracted the punters for a few days, will assume its rank in the interests of the electorate (currently 12th, IIRC).

Here's what I believe, the public are far more forward thinking in this respect than a few stuffed shirts in the consrvative party on this issue yes....Is it the most pressing thing facing everyone in the UK today? probably not.

Glenn. · 07-02-2013, 02:01 AM

The thing is Omah, it may not seem to be a 'Big Issue' with you, but it to thousands of others.

Omah · 07-02-2013, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn

The thing is Omah, it may not seem to be a 'Big Issue' with you, but it to thousands of others.

I understand and am happy to accept that, but I do not accept the view (of another poster) that it eclipses all other issues of interest to the electorate.