[farhad]

Kirklancaster so far you have explained the concidence of Quran's mention the interlink of the astral trinity of Sumerian god around Abraham's time on rerference to moon, sun and the night star of venus, something that was lost in history and absent from any other manuscript, bible which came over 1000 years before quran did not mention it. Its a coincidence as well the coincidence of the lost city of iram.

Regards to jesus using the word muslim, he quite clearly used it in Aramaic, he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew not greek or English.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by farhad

"Kirklancaster so far you have explained the concidence of Quran's mention the interlink of the astral trinity of Sumerian god around Abraham's time on rerference to moon, sun and the night star of venus, something that was lost in history and absent from any other manuscript, bible which came over 1000 years before quran did not mention it. Its a coincidence as well the coincidence of the lost city of iram.

Regards to jesus using the word muslim, he quite clearly used it in Aramaic, he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew not greek or English."

The problem here Farhad, is the same problem which I have personally encountered in real life whenever I have held discussions with Muslims, or tried to engage Muslims in any debate; you are deviously ignoring my responses to you, so that you can avoid having to address the questions I raise in them because you haven't any answers. Instead, as all Muslims do in trying to defend that which is indefensible and rationalise that which is illogical, you keep trotting out the same ready-prepared 'facts' in deflection, because - as a good Muslim - this is what you have been schooled to do.

The truth is that when examined, such 'facts' prove to be fallacies, or in the case of your much prized "Astral Trinity" quote, when examined and weighed against the other 'scientific facts' in the Quran do not pass scrutiny nor constitute any type of proof at all.

One of these standard 'facts' instilled into Muslims to produce as 'evidence' to justify Islam (and there aren't many) is your earlier claim of "Jesus using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40: "Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo" to which I gave a very valid and detailed counter response of just why this 'claim is mere fallacy conveniently dressed as fact, but to which you now counter: "Regards to jesus using the word muslim, he quite clearly used it in Aramaic, he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew not greek or English"

Yes, Jesus did speak Aramaic, but the irrefutable facts are that the writings which formed the 'New testament' were written and circulated in Greek, including the Gospels of Luke and John, the Book of Acts, the Epistles, and the Book of Revelation and the oldest known manuscripts of Matthew and Mark - from 60 A.D. - are in Greek.

Some scholars - including Islamic - have contended that the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and only later translated into Greek, but this is pure speculation which flies in the face of the evidence including the very real fact that no fragments of the Aramaic text have ever been found.

So I will reiterate my perfectly valid rebuttal of your claim bearing in mind that I am referring below not to the Aramaic spoken words of Christ, but to the Greek which they were originally written down in, because - obviously - we have no tape or digital recordings of Christ's speech:

"The actual words Christ said were: "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained (katertismenos) will be like his teacher." Luke 6:40.

The actual Greek word used: ‘katertismenos’ is at the root of the Muslim claim because Muslim polemicists maintain that translated into Hebrew, the word becomes ‘Mushlam’ which they state equates to the Arabic word Muslim.

However, in Luke 6:40 Jesus did not use a proper noun meaning "those who submit." He used the participle ‘katertismenos’, which means "being made ready, prepared, or trained”.

In any event, whichever sense Christ used the word ‘Katertismenos’ in, it is nonsensical for anyone to claim that Jesus used the word Mushlam to actually mean ‘Muslim’ 600 years before Islam was even founded.

To claim as much is known as ‘Chronological Fallacy’ or when somebody ascribes to an historical word a later definition or meaning. It is as ridiculous as saying that Jesus referred to me as ‘blessed’ on the Sermon on The Mount, because my name is Kirk Meek and he said; “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”.

Of course Farhad, I do not expect you to accept any of this, because facts, logic, and integrity, are no match for fallacy, unreasonableness, and brainwashing.

Your "Astral Triad" will be addressed in the next post.

[Kizzy]

I think it's wrong if you have faith to claim another faith is brainwashed.
As I said versions have been written and re written so key issues are lost in translation.
Whole books were left out too, and that in itself was due to those in power using the bible as a tool to influence and control.
Farhad I don't wish to counter challenge, I don't believe anyone knows enough as I believe any real knowledge has been lost.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think it's wrong if you have faith to claim another faith is brainwashed.
As I said versions have been written and re written so key issues are lost in translation.
Whole books were left out too, and that in itself was due to those in power using the bible as a tool to influence and control.
Farhad I don't wish to counter challenge, I don't believe anyone knows enough as I believe any real knowledge has been lost.

I am not making any personal attack, just stating categorically that your post here is irrefutably wrong. According to Muslims, nothing has been added to, or altered, or deleted, in the text of the Quran, and it is the proud boast of every Muslim that the Quran remains today the same unaltered words of Allah preserved in its exact, primary text, uncorrupted and unchanged since the moment of its revelation.

I have had my own copy of the Quran for years, along with other text books on Islam by Islamic scholars, in addition to diverse other printed materials, and access to the internet. I have, therefore, every right as an intelligent and knowledgeable person - regardless of my faith - to have an opinion that the Quran is so transparently littered with inconsistencies and fallacies, that anyone who repeatedly maintains that its infallibility is beyond question, is brainwashed - especially anyone who keep replying with the same pre-packaged stock answer no matter what the question was.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am not making any personal attack, just stating categorically that your post here is irrefutably wrong. According to Muslims, nothing has been added to, or altered, or deleted, in the text of the Quran, and it is the proud boast of every Muslim that the Quran remains today the same unaltered words of Allah preserved in its exact, primary text, uncorrupted and unchanged since the moment of its revelation.

I have had my own copy of the Quran for years, along with other text books on Islam by Islamic scholars, in addition to diverse other printed materials, and access to the internet. I have, therefore, every right as an intelligent and knowledgeable person - regardless of my faith - to have an opinion that the Quran is so transparently littered with inconsistencies and fallacies, that anyone who repeatedly maintains that its infallibility is beyond question, is brainwashed - especially anyone who keep replying with the same pre-packaged stock answer no matter what the question was.

How can you say it was wrong, it's my opinion... And I have the right to suggest all religious texts are as littered with fallacies and inconsistencies.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How can you say it was wrong, it's my opinion... And I have the right to suggest all religious texts are as littered with fallacies and inconsistencies.

So let me understand your contention: You can post an opinion which contradicts my view, but I then can't respond stating that my opinion is that your opinion is wrong?

You SUGGEST what you want. And I have the right to SUGGEST that you do not have a sufficient knowledge of the subject matter to know what you are talking about. I have the right to SUGGEST that like Farhad, you totally ignore facts and explanation in responses and merely post the same inaccuracies.

I have the right to SUGGEST that I have learnt to my cost of how futile it is to try to hold honest discussion with you, and I will not be baited further. Bye

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So let me understand your contention: You can post an opinion which contradicts my view, but I then can't respond stating that my opinion is that your opinion is wrong?

You SUGGEST what you want. And I have the right to SUGGEST that you do not have a sufficient knowledge of the subject matter to know what you are talking about. I have the right to SUGGEST that like Farhad, you totally ignore facts and explanation in responses and merely post the same inaccuracies.

I have the right to SUGGEST that I have learnt to my cost of how futile it is to try to hold honest discussion with you, and I will not be baited further. Bye

You have no idea what I know on the subject though, so all you have is your assumption.
You have not posted 'accuracies' as that is an impossibility.
I entered this topic to offer another perspective, nothing to do with you or yours and I won't be drawn into any discussion that it's personal.

[farhad]

kirklancaster I'm actually going to give you applause for having the courage to buy a translation of the quran, however if you want to study the quran in-depth, best suggestion is to at least get the lexicon of dictionary in classical Arabic, sometimes translation can be human error as its a potetic in classical presentation. Theres no fallacies in Arabic written, its a powerful language and the Arabic alphabet's and literature were codified from quran. Some of the statements in quran like the city of iram was viewed as fairy-tale which later was discovered to be true.