[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The isn't about alcohol though :/
That is legal and people can get high strength alcohol very cheaply in stores.. that's why people don't all fork out for the equipment to brew hooch.
As I've said the issue will be with skunk that won't be included in the legalisation ( most likely) due to the difference in the THC and CBD levels.

I've ignored your straw man debate because it has no bearing on the discussion. To be honest with you Cherie is right you can be insulting in your replies to those you disagree with.. me for one, this thread is just one example. I'm not reaching, making a desperate argument or ignoring anything you say... I just have my own opinion and I just don't happen to agree with your view.

The reason why I keep bringing up alcohol is because it's a much dangerous substance than weed yet it's legal. The skunk argument is the true strawman argument here. You've not been able to offer up one reason why weed should be illegal aside from what essentially boils down to 'some people might abuse it and grow skunk' which is no reason to ban it at all when, if you legalise it you can tax and regulate it and make the official stuff more preferable to the homegrown stuff.

'That is legal and people can get high strength alcohol very cheaply in stores.. that's why people don't all fork out for the equipment to brew hooch.'

Why can't this quote from your post also apply to weed if it was legalised? If it was legal to be sold then people wouldn't bother with the cheap homegrown stuff unless they knew what they were doing.

Your last paragraph as it's just another attempt to demean my argument by saying I've insulted you when I haven't because you can't win this debate by tackling the points I've made head on.

I've never insulted you, I said that the skunk argument as a whole was reaching and desperate. I never actually called you desperate or reaching, you just chose to interpret it that way so you could try to derail the thread by saying I was insulting you when you knew you couldn't win. Really, you and Cherie should apologise to me for trying take things off topic and insulting me because it's only you two that's guilty of the things you're branding me with.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Josy

Only people with little or no real experience of weed seem to be against legalising it.

This whole thread... in a nutshell.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The reason why I keep bringing up alcohol is because it's a much dangerous substance than weed yet it's legal. The skunk argument is the true strawman argument here. You've not been able to offer up one reason why weed should be illegal aside from what essentially boils down to 'some people might abuse it and grow skunk' which is no reason to ban it at all when, if you legalise it you can tax and regulate it and make the official stuff more preferable to the homegrown stuff.

Although i've mentioned it several times already, it doesn't seem you have considered it. Whether alcohol or tobacco are currently legal or not is completely irrelevant. Tobacco won't be legal for much longer, I would say that within 1 or 2 generations it will be completely illegal. There is a general move to tighten up alcohol too, so measures are becoming more restrictive in general, not less so. So why, under those circumstances do you believe that cannabis should buck that trend.

Personally, I think it is primarily an age related issue around entitlement. In my youth I dabbled plenty with cannabis so I know with personal experience the effects that it has and I'm an ex-smoker too. I wouldn't under any circumstances suggest that cannabis be legalised, it will cause many, many more issues than it solves.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Although i've mentioned it several times already, it doesn't seem you have considered it. Whether alcohol or tobacco are currently legal or not is completely irrelevant. Tobacco won't be legal for much longer, I would say that within 1 or 2 generations it will be completely illegal. There is a general move to tighten up alcohol too, so measures are becoming more restrictive in general, not less so. So why, under those circumstances do you believe that cannabis should buck that trend.

Personally, I think it is primarily an age related issue around entitlement. In my youth I dabbled plenty with cannabis so I know with personal experience the effects that it has and I'm an ex-smoker too. I wouldn't under any circumstances suggest that cannabis be legalised, it will cause many, many more issues than it solves.

I think the true figures of how many people actually partake would be a surprise. I know lots and lots of people who use it recreationally, not feckless, paranoid unemployables, but high-functioning professionals. It is less damaging than tobacco and alcohol, that's a fact. By making it legal firstly, it can be regulated and taxed, secondly it takes it out of the hands of criminals. If things are, as you put it, "tightened up" with tobacco and alcohol to such an extent that people can't get hold of it , it'll just send it underground and into the hands of the criminal element where cannabis is at the moment. It's been the case throughout history.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Although i've mentioned it several times already, it doesn't seem you have considered it. Whether alcohol or tobacco are currently legal or not is completely irrelevant. Tobacco won't be legal for much longer, I would say that within 1 or 2 generations it will be completely illegal. There is a general move to tighten up alcohol too, so measures are becoming more restrictive in general, not less so. So why, under those circumstances do you believe that cannabis should buck that trend.

Personally, I think it is primarily an age related issue around entitlement. In my youth I dabbled plenty with cannabis so I know with personal experience the effects that it has and I'm an ex-smoker too. I wouldn't under any circumstances suggest that cannabis be legalised, it will cause many, many more issues than it solves.

I doubt that Tobacco will ever be made illegal, it brings far too much tax to the pot for the government to truly consider making it illegal, same with alcohol. They'll make token gestures (making it illegal to display cigarettes in stores etc) to show that they're trying to cut down on it but that's all it is.

I fail to see the issues that would come of legalising it, like Liv said it would take the power out of the criminal element's hands and as a whole it's a safer alternative to Alcohol and Tobacco. You don't get millions of people dying every year due to weed related illnesses, in fact I don't think anyone has actually ever died directly due to Weed usage, you can't overdose on it, it doesn't cause Liver Failure or Lung Cancer or any kind of terminal illness. The only health related concern you can say about it is that bad batches can cause mental issues through repeated use which wouldn't be a problem if it's legalised and sold officially.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'd say baiting comments like yours that actually add nothing to the debate run the risk of ruining it more than anything anyone else has said so far.

Yup. I would agree with this.

It's kinda the norm around here.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think the true figures of how many people actually partake would be a surprise. I know lots and lots of people who use it recreationally, not feckless, paranoid unemployables, but high-functioning professionals. It is less damaging than tobacco and alcohol, that's a fact. By making it legal firstly, it can be regulated and taxed, secondly it takes it out of the hands of criminals. If things are, as you put it, "tightened up" with tobacco and alcohol to such an extent that people can't get hold of it , it'll just send it underground and into the hands of the criminal element where cannabis is at the moment. It's been the case throughout history.

I have been amazed at some of the 'professional' people who use it,like you state above Livia.

The rest of your post is also totally spot on. I would agree it is less damaging than alcohol particularly too.
Already at only 23, I have come across innumerable people whose lives have been devastated by alcohol, both in the physical and mental health situations, and then also as to their lives and relationships as a knock on to it too.

[Toy Soldier]

I smoked it fairly regularly at University, I'd say most students at least give it a go tbh.

That said, I'm not actually a huge fan, I don't really enjoy the effect, haven't and wouldn't do it again since then... However... I totally agree with the argument that alcohol is a FAR worse drug than cannabis and it's accepted in the majority of cultures globally. If you're OK with alcohol being legal then you literally have no argument against cannabis being legalised.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Josy

Only people with little or no real experience of weed seem to be against legalising it.

yes put the junkies in charge of decisions and ignore the clean living people? insane liberalism

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes put the junkies in charge of decisions and ignore the clean living people? insane liberalism

Not everyone who has ever touched cannabis is a junkie. That's the same as me saying that everyone who has ever had a drink in their life is an alcoholic. I am pro legalisation by the way- alcohol is incredibly damaging to people's physical and mental health, and costs the NHS billions- cannabis use carries much less risk and they only reason I think alcohol and tobacco are still legal is the amount of money the government earn by taxing these substances.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Josy

Only people with little or no real experience of weed seem to be against legalising it.

That's very presumptuous of you Josy, and for me anyway wrong too.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The reason why I keep bringing up alcohol is because it's a much dangerous substance than weed yet it's legal. The skunk argument is the true strawman argument here. You've not been able to offer up one reason why weed should be illegal aside from what essentially boils down to 'some people might abuse it and grow skunk' which is no reason to ban it at all when, if you legalise it you can tax and regulate it and make the official stuff more preferable to the homegrown stuff.


Why can't this quote from your post also apply to weed if it was legalised? If it was legal to be sold then people wouldn't bother with the cheap homegrown stuff unless they knew what they were doing.

Your last paragraph as it's just another attempt to demean my argument by saying I've insulted you when I haven't because you can't win this debate by tackling the points I've made head on.

I've never insulted you, I said that the skunk argument as a whole was reaching and desperate. I never actually called you desperate or reaching, you just chose to interpret it that way so you could try to derail the thread by saying I was insulting you when you knew you couldn't win. Really, you and Cherie should apologise to me for trying take things off topic and insulting me because it's only you two that's guilty of the things you're branding me with.

So comparisons to alcohol are relevant but when I compare skunk to legalised cannabis it's a straw man tactic?...

Discussing skunk which is a huge problem in my area in a thread relating to cannabis is not reaching and/or desperate in my view and is the reason I found your dismissal of my opinion so insulting.

I know alcohol is dangerous unfortunately you can't put that genie back in the bottle, however as drug driving is now an offence and skunk farms still prevalent how would legalising cannabis benefit the UK apart from making some filthy rich?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

Not everyone who has ever touched cannabis is a junkie. That's the same as me saying that everyone who has ever had a drink in their life is an alcoholic. I am pro legalisation by the way- alcohol is incredibly damaging to people's physical and mental health, and costs the NHS billions- cannabis use carries much less risk and they only reason I think alcohol and tobacco are still legal is the amount of money the government earn by taxing these substances.

yes you have your petty play on words whilst the country falls apart with record drug related crime....and of course only drug takers are allowed an opinion on drugs under the liberal loony left ? and of course because people are allowed to get drunk off their faces lets allow them to get drugged up to their eyeballs too , yes that will help? the usual insane moral relativism of the loony left. booze should have a far higher minimum price. id be more than happy to see it banned from all supermarkets....at least when people drink in pubs its managed by staff to a degree. but the argument if we have booze on the shelves we should have drugs too, is insane in the membrane. drugs destroy lives, increase crime, increase drug dealing , increasing irrational erratic violent behaviour and is a gateway to harder drugs which kill people and create enormous social problems too. you throw in liberal booze and liberal drugs laws and you have a concoction that will see the country go to hell in a handbasket.....and all you can worry about is what do we call junkies? get a grip

[Josy]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes put the junkies in charge of decisions and ignore the clean living people? insane liberalism

The majority of people that smoke cannabis aren't junkies, a lot of professional, hard working people that live very normal lives enjoy having the odd smoke and most people have the willpower to not become an addict and by that I'm not in anyway saying all addicts lack willpower as some get so sucked into the addiction that it then becomes dangerous for them to stop, with all drugs and also alcohol but with cannabis most people don't become addicted to start with and can easily control how much they wish to have and when to stop.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's very presumptuous of you Josy, and for me anyway wrong too.

Not presumptuous at all, that's my experience of the whole cannabis debate.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Josy

Not presumptuous at all, that's my experience of the whole cannabis debate.

You have no idea what the experience of cannabis is for those who are against legalisation though, those who are for it who think that the issues are down to a 'bad batch' don't appear to be that clued up either tbh.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So comparisons to alcohol are relevant but when I compare skunk to legalised cannabis it's a straw man tactic?...

Discussing skunk which is a huge problem in my area in a thread relating to cannabis is not reaching and/or desperate in my view and is the reason I found your dismissal of my opinion so insulting.

I know alcohol is dangerous unfortunately you can't put that genie back in the bottle, however as drug driving is now an offence and skunk farms still prevalent how would legalising cannabis benefit the UK apart from making some filthy rich?

Yes because, like you said when it we were talking about alcohol, if it was legalised and sold, the process of growing it would become standardised and regulated which would mean that, like you said when it came to the home brewed, people would be more likely to buy the legal variety due to simply being easier to get.

You can buy cheap knockoff fags that are hazardous to your health, you can buy knockoff beer that's just as dangerous too but these aren't huge widespread issues because the vast majority of people will go for the legal options. If they legalised weed then chances are your area's skunk problem would end becoming less of a problem since people would just end up buying the legit stuff.

If you legalise something, you can control it and you remove the power from the criminal element who would otherwise have control over how much skunk makes it into the public's hands. Weed is basically harmless, certainly more harmless than tobacco or alcohol so why shouldn't it be legalised? Legalising it will reduce the amount of skunk that's around.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes you have your petty play on words whilst the country falls apart with record drug related crime....and of course only drug takers are allowed an opinion on drugs under the liberal loony left ? and of course because people are allowed to get drunk off their faces lets allow them to get drugged up to their eyeballs too , yes that will help? the usual insane moral relativism of the loony left. booze should have a far higher minimum price. id be more than happy to see it banned from all supermarkets....at least when people drink in pubs its managed by staff to a degree. but the argument if we have booze on the shelves we should have drugs too, is insane in the membrane. drugs destroy lives, increase crime, increase drug dealing , increasing irrational erratic violent behaviour and is a gateway to harder drugs which kill people and create enormous social problems too. you throw in liberal booze and liberal drugs laws and you have a concoction that will see the country go to hell in a handbasket.....and all you can worry about is what do we call junkies? get a grip

My point is that a lot of people who use cannabis use it for recreational use in moderation. There are many cannabis users who are professional, hard-working and the many problems you identified if we legalised this drug (increase in drug dealing, increase in crime, and violent and erratic behaviour) would be much less of a problem if the drug was legalised and controlled like tobacco and alcohol. There wouldn't be very much drug dealing as it could be sold openly by regulated businesses, a lot of crime related to drugs (burglary, theft etc) is caused by the dealers exploiting some people's addictions and charging these people ridiculous prices. Changing the law to make cannabis legal will not cause everybody to start using cannabis and 'the country go to hell in a handbasket', if you think that then I think you may seriously underestimate the number of people who ignore the law and use these drug anyway.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yes because, like you said when it we were talking about alcohol, if it was legalised and sold, the process of growing it would become standardised and regulated which would mean that, like you said when it came to the home brewed, people would be more likely to buy the legal variety due to simply being easier to get.

You can buy cheap knockoff fags that are hazardous to your health, you can buy knockoff beer that's just as dangerous too but these aren't huge widespread issues because the vast majority of people will go for the legal options. If they legalised weed then chances are your area's skunk problem would end becoming less of a problem since people would just end up buying the legit stuff.

If you legalise something, you can control it and you remove the power from the criminal element who would otherwise have control over how much skunk makes it into the public's hands. Weed is basically harmless, certainly more harmless than tobacco or alcohol so why shouldn't it be legalised? Legalising it will reduce the amount of skunk that's around.

I disagree, I don't think if both were available and they were already regularly illegally using the high THC content skunk they would switch to the regulated brand no.
I think those who want it will still seek it out therefore the legalisation will have no baring on that issue, nor do I think those producing it will stop.

If it's harmless then why can you not smoke cannabis and drive?

[Cherie]

Kizzy makes some very valid points

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I disagree, I don't think if both were available and they were already regularly illegally using the high THC content skunk they would switch to the regulated brand no.
I think those who want it will still seek it out therefore the legalisation will have no baring on that issue, nor do I think those producing it will stop.

If it's harmless then why can you not smoke cannabis and drive?

It was obvious that meant that is was harmless in the fact that you can't die from it. Obviously operating heavy machinery is an issue for a lot of substances, legal and otherwise....

Most people would make the switch to the regulated kind, using fringe examples as an argument against the majority is pointless. Skunk isn't as big of a problem as you make it out to be and it would be even less of an issue if weed was legalised.

Once again, there are no reasons why weed should continue to be banned.

[Alf]

Balls to that

If it were made legal it would cost a bomb, the tax the criminals in Westminster would take.

I'm happy how it is.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You have no idea what the experience of cannabis is for those who are against legalisation though, those who are for it who think that the issues are down to a 'bad batch' don't appear to be that clued up either tbh.

I know what the experience is of the majority of people I have had discussions with about it and most if not all that are against it have little to none, hence my opinion that I first posted in the thread.

[Josy]

Kizzy why do you keep mentioning skunk? do you have experience of this strain of cannabis or are you going by what you have read in the papers about it?

There are numerous strains that have high levels of THC, but then anything above roughly 12% is regarded as high and for each different strain you get they all affect users slightly different, you also get different effects again depending on which plant was used in the first place.

A lot of the anti legalisation prejudice today is based on the same claims some here are using about THC levels and the weed being more potent than that of a few decades ago, which is just complete garbage tbh.

Years ago the argument was 'Ohh cannabis is a gateway drug' hahah

Here in the UK most people that say they are smoking skunk aren't btw, they are just using it as a word to describe whatever type of generic weed they have.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Josy

Kizzy why do you keep mentioning skunk? do you have experience of this strain of cannabis or are you going by what you have read in the papers about it?

There are numerous strains that have high levels of THC, but then anything above roughly 12% is regarded as high and for each different strain you get they all affect users slightly different, you also get different effects again depending on which plant was used in the first place.

A lot of the anti legalisation prejudice today is based on the same claims some here are using about THC levels and the weed being more potent than that of a few decades ago, which is just complete garbage tbh.

Years ago the argument was 'Ohh cannabis is a gateway drug' hahah

Here in the UK most people that say they are smoking skunk aren't btw, they are just using it as a word to describe whatever type of generic weed they have.

Because it's a big issue, I have experience of it both in my family and in my community, from speaking to youth groups and the police. Why do you presume those who are against have no knowledge of the subject and those that are for it are some kind of cannabis gurus?
As I said it's not only the high THC content but the low CBD in this stain that is causing issues, in many cases they are smoking skunk and farms are being discovered in Leeds almost daily.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It was obvious that meant that is was harmless in the fact that you can't die from it. Obviously operating heavy machinery is an issue for a lot of substances, legal and otherwise....

Most people would make the switch to the regulated kind, using fringe examples as an argument against the majority is pointless. Skunk isn't as big of a problem as you make it out to be and it would be even less of an issue if weed was legalised.

Once again, there are no reasons why weed should continue to be banned.

Yes lots of substances are which is why it's either illegal to operate a vehicle or operate machinery while under the influence or they are regulated via prescription. The 'lots of things are legal' argument for something illegal becoming legal is weak.

Would they... How do you know this, people want more bang for their buck, why pay more for something weaker or less of it?
What majority.. Are you sure the majority in the UK want it legalised? It is a big problem where I live for example, you can choose to ignore or deny that fact if you want.

I believe there are many reasons why cannabis should continue to be tightly regulated.