[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i have no problem imagining that across space and time there could be beings that are vastly more intelligent than us. If those beings come to a point where they have the power of life and death over us then they are by definition gods. Even at that point it is up to individuals whether they choose to worship those gods or not, it's not an automatic given and it never will be.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Humans are gods in a way, humans decide if a person lives or dies, thru a country's legal system/medical treatment, war/lack of food.

Then nature it self can kill, hurricanes/floods/ volcanoes.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

If you don't believe it's fine, because your earthly sins will be forgiven.

It's a very clever line that Jesus was supposed to say.

Forgive them father they know not what they do.

Not always sheriff,if that was the case there would be no hell,but some people believe hell is here on earth,who really knows.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Not always sheriff,if that was the case there would be no hell,but some people believe hell is here on earth,who really knows.

If you believe in heaven than you have believe in hell,

Hell is a way of saying you will be punished for your sins which is rubbish, if you kill a person on earth intentionally than you should be put to death.

[user104658]

On the question of the possibility of intelligent design / a "creator" the only sensible stance is to be agnostic. The mysteries of the universe are so vast and deep that it's very possible (probable) that no single human mind COULD even begin to comprehend it, even if it was laid out in the simplest possible terms... And it isn't, so we're very unlikely to ever figure it out on our own. Maybe some sort of advanced artificial intelligence could in a few hundred years? Who knows.

However

Being open to the possibility of *A* god or god-like entity of some description is completely different to being open to the possibility that any one human religion is accurate. Some seem to believe that the thinking of "no one knows the truth for definite... So it MIGHT be Evanglism / Islam / Buddhism!" is a sensible or logical stance. It isn't. The existence of multiple religions, and the fact that NO two separate groups of humans / civilisations have developed exactly the same religion without it spreading human-to-human, makes it almost infinitely unlikely that any of those religions came from on high or contain any sort of universal truth. The only logical conclusion is that they are simple human attempts to understand the mysteries of existence and nature, and to ground and humanise the terrifying vastness of the universe. A comfort blanket, or maybe you could say a "dome of explanations", to shelter from the infinite vacuum of the unknown that lies beyond.

Those unknown aspects of space and time might contain intelligent design. That's very possible. You could call that "designer" God. But it's not Abrahamic God, or any other human god.

Human religions and their rules are collections of fables, myths and legends... Stories we've used to get our heads around it all. No different to Greek gods or (pre-Christian) Roman gods or Norse gods. There is zero logic in believing any differently. Especially given that all of those ancient peoples believed in their gods just as strongly as modern believers do today .

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

On the question of the possibility of intelligent design / a "creator" the only sensible stance is to be agnostic. The mysteries of the universe are so vast and deep that it's very possible (probable) that no single human mind COULD even begin to comprehend it, even if it was laid out in the simplest possible terms... And it isn't, so we're very unlikely to ever figure it out on our own. Maybe some sort of advanced artificial intelligence could in a few hundred years? Who knows.

However

Being open to the possibility of *A* god or god-like entity of some description is completely different to being open to the possibility that any one human religion is accurate. Some seem to believe that the thinking of "no one knows the truth for definite... So it MIGHT be Evanglism / Islam / Buddhism!" is a sensible or logical stance. It isn't. The existence of multiple religions, and the fact that NO two separate groups of humans / civilisations have developed exactly the same religion without it spreading human-to-human, makes it almost infinitely unlikely that any of those religions came from on high or contain any sort of universal truth. The only logical conclusion is that they are simple human attempts to understand the mysteries of existence and nature, and to ground and humanise the terrifying vastness of the universe. A comfort blanket, or maybe you could say a "dome of explanations", to shelter from the infinite vacuum of the unknown that lies beyond.

Those unknown aspects of space and time might contain intelligent design. That's very possible. You could call that "designer" God. But it's not Abrahamic God, or any other human god.

Human religions and their rules are collections of fables, myths and legends... Stories we've used to get our heads around it all. No different to Greek gods or (pre-Christian) Roman gods or Norse gods. There is zero logic in believing any differently. Especially given that all of those ancient peoples believed in their gods just as strongly as modern believers do today .

Yeah this is how i see it too

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

On the question of the possibility of intelligent design / a "creator" the only sensible stance is to be agnostic. The mysteries of the universe are so vast and deep that it's very possible (probable) that no single human mind COULD even begin to comprehend it, even if it was laid out in the simplest possible terms... And it isn't, so we're very unlikely to ever figure it out on our own. Maybe some sort of advanced artificial intelligence could in a few hundred years? Who knows.

However

Being open to the possibility of *A* god or god-like entity of some description is completely different to being open to the possibility that any one human religion is accurate. Some seem to believe that the thinking of "no one knows the truth for definite... So it MIGHT be Evanglism / Islam / Buddhism!" is a sensible or logical stance. It isn't. The existence of multiple religions, and the fact that NO two separate groups of humans / civilisations have developed exactly the same religion without it spreading human-to-human, makes it almost infinitely unlikely that any of those religions came from on high or contain any sort of universal truth. The only logical conclusion is that they are simple human attempts to understand the mysteries of existence and nature, and to ground and humanise the terrifying vastness of the universe. A comfort blanket, or maybe you could say a "dome of explanations", to shelter from the infinite vacuum of the unknown that lies beyond.

Those unknown aspects of space and time might contain intelligent design. That's very possible. You could call that "designer" God. But it's not Abrahamic God, or any other human god.

Human religions and their rules are collections of fables, myths and legends... Stories we've used to get our heads around it all. No different to Greek gods or (pre-Christian) Roman gods or Norse gods. There is zero logic in believing any differently. Especially given that all of those ancient peoples believed in their gods just as strongly as modern believers do today .

I'm also with ts mind set.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

On the question of the possibility of intelligent design / a "creator" the only sensible stance is to be agnostic. The mysteries of the universe are so vast and deep that it's very possible (probable) that no single human mind COULD even begin to comprehend it, even if it was laid out in the simplest possible terms... And it isn't, so we're very unlikely to ever figure it out on our own. Maybe some sort of advanced artificial intelligence could in a few hundred years? Who knows.

However

Being open to the possibility of *A* god or god-like entity of some description is completely different to being open to the possibility that any one human religion is accurate. Some seem to believe that the thinking of "no one knows the truth for definite... So it MIGHT be Evanglism / Islam / Buddhism!" is a sensible or logical stance. It isn't. The existence of multiple religions, and the fact that NO two separate groups of humans / civilisations have developed exactly the same religion without it spreading human-to-human, makes it almost infinitely unlikely that any of those religions came from on high or contain any sort of universal truth. The only logical conclusion is that they are simple human attempts to understand the mysteries of existence and nature, and to ground and humanise the terrifying vastness of the universe. A comfort blanket, or maybe you could say a "dome of explanations", to shelter from the infinite vacuum of the unknown that lies beyond.

Those unknown aspects of space and time might contain intelligent design. That's very possible. You could call that "designer" God. But it's not Abrahamic God, or any other human god.

Human religions and their rules are collections of fables, myths and legends... Stories we've used to get our heads around it all. No different to Greek gods or (pre-Christian) Roman gods or Norse gods. There is zero logic in believing any differently. Especially given that all of those ancient peoples believed in their gods just as strongly as modern believers do today .

I'd like to respond to the part in bold. I said earlier that the more detailed the doctrine the less likely it is. But don't see the point in rubbishing such doctrines. It doesn't help in maintaining dialogue and understanding between people. Besides, as I said before, those doctrines can be flexible and open to interpretation. Most Christian denominations don't insist that the world was actually created in a week, they see a lot of the original scriptures in more metaphorical way. Is it impossible to adopt the Jesus story into a history of a visitation by one of our alien masters, if it come to that? Not really. And Bible may contain more historical stuff that we think. The flood of Noah could have been the refilling of the Mediterranean after the last Ice Age.
I don't know about others but most main Christian denominations have come to accept scientific discoveries like Copernicus's heliocentric system or Darwin's evolution. And now they're open to the possibility of life on other planets. Vatican's Observatory is at the cutting edge of astronomical research.
It's far better to seek common ground and persuade than call the believers stupid or, as you implied, illogical and not sensible.

[Maru]

I like the way my AP world history teacher put it, 2S.. the Bible is one of the best books ever written on the nature of man... there is solid scholarly value in studying religions I think

[Parmy]

I used to get a slap round the lug for taking the lords name in vain if i said jesus christ....got a lot worse for saying ****ing hell though.

[Kizzy]

I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.

Yes, given all of the available evidence it's become increasingly likely that Jesus, the individual, did exist. And that he did good, and through his life gained devoted followers (as many mere mortals do). What's less clear is the account of his abilities... Which were most likely exaggerated again and again through "Chinese whispers" and folklore... E.g. Perhaps him and his followers charitably brought bread and fish to a starving village - and over time this became a story of him "magically" feeding thousands with a small amount of food. Perhaps he brought medicines / medical knowledge from his travels and healed people that others had assumed to be dying, and that story was passed on as "magic".

Its even unclear as to whether he himself ever declared himself the son of / an avatar of God... Or if this was something that came from his followers, possibly even as "rewritten history" after he was executed and became a martyr.

Theology is fascinating in itself and as has been said, its intricately interwoven into human history. But again, the same can be said of ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Norse religions which are now only history - and yet no less valuable or fascinating from a sociological / anthropological viewpoint.

I personally believe that all religions are destined to go the same way over time. Although inevitably, others will spring up in their place from time to time.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes, given all of the available evidence it's become increasingly likely that Jesus, the individual, did exist. And that he did good, and through his life gained devoted followers (as many mere mortals do). What's less clear is the account of his abilities... Which were most likely exaggerated again and again through "Chinese whispers" and folklore... E.g. Perhaps him and his followers charitably brought bread and fish to a starving village - and over time this became a story of him "magically" feeding thousands with a small amount of food. Perhaps he brought medicines / medical knowledge from his travels and healed people that others had assumed to be dying, and that story was passed on as "magic".

Its even unclear as to whether he himself ever declared himself the son of / an avatar of God... Or if this was something that came from his followers, possibly even as "rewritten history" after he was executed and became a martyr.

Theology is fascinating in itself and as has been said, its intricately interwoven into human history. But again, the same can be said of ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Norse religions which are now only history - and yet no less valuable or fascinating from a sociological / anthropological viewpoint.

I personally believe that all religions are destined to go the same way over time. Although inevitably, others will spring up in their place from time to time.

Who mentioned religion?.. I didn't.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who mentioned religion?.. I didn't.

You did. You mentioned Christians.

Christianity is a religion. :/

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You did. You mentioned Christians.

Christianity is a religion. :/

Yes I did didn't I? and I'm sorry I did, it was just to highlight the hypocrisy of some who call themselves Christians but don't abide by anything that he specifically suggested was tantamount to his teachings.

That said there's the theory that Christianity was invented to assert patriarchy an circumvent female/moon/earth worship.... So who knows?

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes, given all of the available evidence it's become increasingly likely that Jesus, the individual, did exist. And that he did good, and through his life gained devoted followers (as many mere mortals do). What's less clear is the account of his abilities... Which were most likely exaggerated again and again through "Chinese whispers" and folklore... E.g. Perhaps him and his followers charitably brought bread and fish to a starving village - and over time this became a story of him "magically" feeding thousands with a small amount of food. Perhaps he brought medicines / medical knowledge from his travels and healed people that others had assumed to be dying, and that story was passed on as "magic".

Its even unclear as to whether he himself ever declared himself the son of / an avatar of God... Or if this was something that came from his followers, possibly even as "rewritten history" after he was executed and became a martyr.

Theology is fascinating in itself and as has been said, its intricately interwoven into human history. But again, the same can be said of ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Norse religions which are now only history - and yet no less valuable or fascinating from a sociological / anthropological viewpoint.

I personally believe that all religions are destined to go the same way over time. Although inevitably, others will spring up in their place from time to time.

And perhaps his mum was just the local bike.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.

Nice thoughts kizzy..heres hoping.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.

just wishful thinking nonsense without sounding rude

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

just wishful thinking nonsense without sounding rude

You do sound a bit rude but ok.

[Nicky91]

^ don't you forget Hirohito to that list of names, or what was Japan's religion during that regime, i thought he also was part of the Axis regime along with Germany and Italy at world war II, so my point is, isn't he also part of that atheist regime you mentioned Kirk

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

^ don't you forget Hirohito to that list of names, or what was Japan's religion during that regime, i thought he also was part of the Axis regime along with Germany and Italy at world war II, so my point is, isn't he also part of that atheist regime you mentioned Kirk

Yes, of course, Nicky - Thank you.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes, of course, Nicky - Thank you.

no problem, world war II has been one of the subjects i had top marks for at school, one of the few subjects i had top marks for, unlike maths for example

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

no problem, world war II has been one of the subjects i had top marks for at school, one of the few subjects i had top marks for, unlike maths for example

Don't worry, Nicky, Diane Abbott is crap at maths (in fact crap at EVERYTHING) and it has not done her any harm career-wise.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Don't worry, Nicky, Diane Abbott is crap at maths (in fact crap at EVERYTHING) and it has not done her any harm career-wise.

And the minister for war is a fireplace salesman... Which links beautifully to my theory that tories are the antichrist.

[bots]

Jesus Christ, this threads gone on a bit