[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The term black people is an everyday English-language phrase, often used in socially-based systems of racial classification or of ethnicity to describe persons who are defined as belonging to a "black" ethnicity in their particular country, typically having a degree of Sub-Saharan African ancestry, or who are perceived to be dark-skinned relative to other "racial groups".

Different societies, such as Australia, Brazil, the United Kingdom, the United States and South Africa apply differing criteria regarding who is classified as "black", and these criteria have also varied over time. In some countries, social variables affect classification as much as skin-color, and the social criteria for "blackness" vary. For example, in North America the term black people is not necessarily an indicator of skin color or ethnic origin but is more of a socially-based racial classification related to being African American, with a family history related to institutionalized slavery. In South Africa, mixed-race people are not considered to be "black", and in other regions, such as Australia and Melanesia, the term "black" has been applied to, and used by, populations with a very different history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people

These criteria have also varied over time

You've answered your question in the article you quote.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I can see a time, in this lifetime, when the word black will not be accepted

I agree.......why do we have to prefix somebody with a skin colour

It used to be the word coloured or coloured's then it became black


Surely only if it was necessary to describe the person in question would you need to say "black" why use it as a descriptive term in the first instance ?

some might agree that that in itself is racist !!!

[Z]

Sometimes it's necessary to distinguish somebody's race, i.e. in a discussion like this, so no, it's not always 'racist' to refer to someone by their skin colour. It's descriptive, not racist. If you want to press on with that logic then we can't call people fat if they're fat, even if it's that one of the first things you'd think of when you were describing someone who was overweight.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said it's "unfair" that white people "can't" use the n word. The problem is that if a black person says it to another black person, obviously it's not (well, usually not) intended as a racial slur, it means something else. What exactly it means hasn't been officially defined by any dictionaries as far as I know, but it doesn't mean what it used to mean. If a white person said it to a black person, they might intend it in the same way but by virtue of their race, it will come across as a racial slur. That's why I'm of the opinion that the word should either be put to rest or there should be some kind of drive to change what the word means, to properly reclaim it. Having it floating about in this limbo stage where it means something else to some people but not to everyone means that the world at large cannot move on from the historical past of the word. It's up to black people where to go from here with the word. Stay as things are and racism will never go away, it'll always be around us. Try and progress and things can only get better. The civil rights movement didn't just stop when slavery was abolished.

[Ninastar]

^^^

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Sometimes it's necessary to distinguish somebody's race, i.e. in a discussion like this, so no, it's not always 'racist' to refer to someone by their skin colour. It's descriptive, not racist. If you want to press on with that logic then we can't call people fat if they're fat, even if it's that one of the first things you'd think of when you were describing someone who was overweight.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said it's "unfair" that white people "can't" use the n word. The problem is that if a black person says it to another black person, obviously it's not (well, usually not) intended as a racial slur, it means something else. What exactly it means hasn't been officially defined by any dictionaries as far as I know, but it doesn't mean what it used to mean. If a white person said it to a black person, they might intend it in the same way but by virtue of their race, it will come across as a racial slur. That's why I'm of the opinion that the word should either be put to rest or there should be some kind of drive to change what the word means, to properly reclaim it. Having it floating about in this limbo stage where it means something else to some people but not to everyone means that the world at large cannot move on from the historical past of the word. It's up to black people where to go from here with the word. Stay as things are and racism will never go away, it'll always be around us. Try and progress and things can only get better. The civil rights movement didn't just stop when slavery was abolished.

I agree with the points you raise...........I would however suggest this particular debate about the use of a word belies deeper more entrenched views about people in general. inserting the word black into a conversation about something somebody said or did (assuming they are black) is in my view unnecessary in the context of that particular verbal exchange.

Why do we need to know the person is black at the beginning of the conversation ? what bearing does it have on the topic being discussed ie what that person said or did etc...

Seems to me we almost without question have to prefix the start of conversations about people with the phrase eg...

"I was talking to this black guy" or "I met this black woman" ....???

Why is it so important we know their skin colour before we know anything else about them ?

For me this is a form on innate racism where we then modify our thoughts about this or that person in line with our in built stereotypes of black people.

Why can't we just treat people as people and if it transpires they have slightly darker skin than their white skinned counterparts.. then so What !!!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I agree with the points you raise...........I would however suggest this particular debate about the use of a word belies deeper more entrenched views about people in general. inserting the word black into a conversation about something somebody said or did (assuming they are black) is in my view unnecessary in the context of that particular verbal exchange.

Why do we need to know the person is black at the beginning of the conversation ? what bearing does it have on the topic being discussed ie what that person said or did etc...

Seems to me we almost without question have to prefix the start of conversations about people with the phrase eg...

"I was talking to this black guy" or "I met this black woman" ....???

Why is it so important we know their skin colour before we know anything else about them ?

For me this is a form on innate racism where we then modify our thoughts about this or that person in line with our in built stereotypes of black people.

Why can't we just treat people as people and if it transpires they have slightly darker skin than their white skinned counterparts.. then so What !!!!

What we need is a great big melting pot..

[Nedusa]

Racism will eventually become a thing of the past in any case.

The Human race will eventually interbreed so much so that we will all be coffee coloured and that will be that.................!!!!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Racism will eventually become a thing of the past in any case.

The Human race will eventually interbreed so much so that we will all be coffee coloured and that will be that.................!!!!!

like what happens to Plasticine after a while

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

like what happens to Plasticine after a while

Exactly.... I couldn't put it any better.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I agree with the points you raise...........I would however suggest this particular debate about the use of a word belies deeper more entrenched views about people in general. inserting the word black into a conversation about something somebody said or did (assuming they are black) is in my view unnecessary in the context of that particular verbal exchange.

Why do we need to know the person is black at the beginning of the conversation ? what bearing does it have on the topic being discussed ie what that person said or did etc...

Seems to me we almost without question have to prefix the start of conversations about people with the phrase eg...

"I was talking to this black guy" or "I met this black woman" ....???

Why is it so important we know their skin colour before we know anything else about them ?

For me this is a form on innate racism where we then modify our thoughts about this or that person in line with our in built stereotypes of black people.

Why can't we just treat people as people and if it transpires they have slightly darker skin than their white skinned counterparts.. then so What !!!!

I agree with you but I don't think this particular debate has anything to do with people using the word black to describe someone unnecessarily. We are specifically talking about divides between people based around this word and the divide is along racial lines, so it's necessary here. More generally speaking, however, I agree with you - referring to someone as black when it's not necessary is a bizarre thing to do and is perhaps an innate form of racism.

[Vicky.]

Yeah..I dont quite get it when people say 'oh I saw a black guy on a bus today and...' or something.

However I understand using colour as a descriptive term. I wouldnt think twice of pointing someone out in a crowd for example using their colour..no matter what colour they were. To me it makes much more sense than being all 'the guy with the dark hair. The guy in the jeans...with the red top on...who just scratched his nose...' about it

[Z]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah..I dont quite get it when people say 'oh I saw a black guy on a bus today and...' or something.

However I understand using colour as a descriptive term. I wouldnt think twice of pointing someone out in a crowd for example using their colour..no matter what colour they were. To me it makes much more sense than being all 'the guy with the dark hair. The guy in the jeans...with the red top on...who just scratched his nose...' about it

Exactly this. If I'm looking for friends in a crowd "I'll meet you by the really tall guy with the curly black hair and the green jacket on" - I'm not going to try and find another way to describe him if that's what makes him stand out. I wouldn't say "the Chinese looking one" if I was lost in Tiananmen Square looking for a friend, to put it the other way round.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Exactly this. If I'm looking for friends in a crowd "I'll meet you by the really tall guy with the curly black hair and the green jacket on" - I'm not going to try and find another way to describe him if that's what makes him stand out. I wouldn't say "the Chinese looking one" if I was lost in Tiananmen Square looking for a friend, to put it the other way round.

I agree if you're describing someone then yes of course it's the obvious feature , but if you're referring to something that person has said or any conversation that doesn't require the person initially to be described, then why prefix your first comment with .... This black guy I was talking to or this black woman showed me the directions to..... ???

I mean why is necessary to know their skin colour in those circumstances ?

Yet a lot of people do this all the time as if we need to know their colour so our responses are selective based on skin colour .

Isn't that a form of racism ??

[Niall]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

I follow perfectly, it's that old thing called... what was it.... double standards.

If a word brings with it negative connotations and memories of a less pleasant time for a certain group of people then why on earth would they want to bring it into their vocabulary.

Nah. Not double standards at all really.

Ameliorating a slur is a long process that's kind of integral to elevating a minority out of oppression. The word has to be reclaimed by that minority and its meaning redefined by them to properly break down its last entrenched vestiges of linguistic oppression.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Nah. Not double standards at all really.

Ameliorating a slur is a long process that's kind of integral to elevating a minority oppression. The word has to be reclaimed by that minority and its meaning redefined by them to properly break down its last entrenched vestiges of linguistic oppression.

Write this out again once you have vomited the thesaurus back up please

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Write this out again once you have vomited the thesaurus back up please

Sorry I get so wordy sometimes I can't control myself.

But in essence: to de-slur a slur, the minority has to work to remove its negativity by reclaiming it. The oppressors shouldn't use it because that just reinforces its historic prejudice.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niall

Sorry I get so wordy sometimes I can't control myself.

But in essence: to make de-slur a slur, the minority has to work to remove its negativity by reclaiming it. The oppressors shouldn't use it because that just reinforces its historic prejudice.

You say this like it's a thing... when has it ever occurred before this reclamation?

[GypsyGoth]

The word "queer" is an example.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

The word "queer" is an example.

Do a lot of gay people call themselves queer?

[GypsyGoth]

Well the word was once used as an insult. And now there are things like Queer Studies and Queer Theory. The meaning of the word has been successfully changed.

[Kizzy]

But is it's use reserved specifically for gay people or can anyone discuss queer theory?

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But is it's use reserved specifically for gay people or can anyone discuss queer theory?

Anyone can discuss it, like feminist theory, it's just a another way talk about the culture around us.

The word queer has evolved past the part where a minority community reclaim it. That part was achieved. So to compare this to the n-word. That is still at the stage where a minority are reclaiming it.

[lostalex]

Queer isn't really about gay or straight. people who have a foot fetish are "queer". people who are polygamists are "queer", asexuals are "queer".

[blackmagicwoman]

I am black and I'm too old to be offended with petty descriptions. However I used racial slurs with my associates in close too. No biggy. V!

[lostalex]

If I as a white man, call a chinese guy the N-word, is that offensive?

I guess it's like the Eminem argument, that when he calls people f**got in his songs, it's okay as long as they aren't gay, right? so i can call people the N-word as long as they aren't black, right?