[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...you know what sickens me the most about this thread and what is effectively being said, which is why I was sickened by it yesterday and looks as though it will go on and on and on and on and on because last word is everything...of some who don't support the air strikes..(of which I am also a non supporter ..)...all of the I'm right and the gloating and the puffing of feathers etc and whichever whay you want to put it or spin it, is at the expense of those civilians who have been killed in the strikes, which was mentioned yesterday....no thought for them whatsoever, just a satisfaction at being right..(which no one is anyway, only a few days into a long extensive military action where any effectiveness or lack of/outcome isn't yet known..)...it's like someone, saying...'don't do that, it's dangerous/don't drive like that' or whatever and then something tragic and awful happening and saying I told you so/I told them so and having a satisfaction about it because they 'felt right' and very proud to say so...where is the pride in a loss of any life....people are dead and all some care about is who's right and who's wrong, it's staggering the coldness of it all and the absolute arrogance and self importance of an internet thread...there are no 'winners' in this, we know that in the UK and the whole world knows that because innocent people will die..../either way, innocent people will die and either way, have already...

Wait a min.... what puffing of feathers?
I was against strikes and I still am, how does that make me gloating or puffed up about innocent people being at risk or killed?
Why do I get the impression I'm subtly being accused of something here.... don't skirt all around the houses Ammi please I would appreciate a bit of honesty as to who is getting the full on finger wag.
The airstrikes sicken me, the realisation by some that they could have made a bad situation 100 times worse sickens me, misinformation sickens me.
Of course there's no way this could be aimed at anyone in particular really, that said I think that those who were against initially are totally justified in criticising what was agreed that day and there should be no shame in admitting they feel it was the wrong decision based on the reports so far.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...you know what sickens me the most about this thread and what is effectively being said, which is why I was sickened by it yesterday and looks as though it will go on and on and on and on and on because last word is everything...of some who don't support the air strikes..

Not that I want to stop you in your tracks when you're on one Ammi, it is refreshing to see, but I feel like I have to ask why there's a specific focus here on "some who don't support the air strikes"? I mean at the very least, by definition, if it's become about "having the last word" and will "go on and on and on" then it literally has to be at least one person from each opposing viewpoint that is guilty of the same thing. It's an irony that's always struck me; the phrase "you always have to have the last word, don't you?" is in itself an attempt to have the last word. .

the I'm right and the gloating and the puffing of feathers etc and whichever whay you want to put it or spin it, is at the expense of those civilians who have been killed in the strikes, which was mentioned yesterday....

Expense? I think that surely has to be the wrong word. It's not at the expense of anyone in that situation; what we say here will make absolutely not one jot of difference to the fate of those tragic people. It seems that nothing said anywhere will, let's be honest - the global wheels are turning on rails, we're all just commenting passively. There is no stopping it nor changing the direction... commentary is benign no matter what form it takes, so it can't really be "at their expense".

no thought for them whatsoever, just a satisfaction at being right..(which no one is anyway, only a few days into a long extensive military action where any effectiveness or lack of/outcome isn't yet known..)...it's like someone, saying...'don't do that, it's dangerous/don't drive like that' or whatever and then something tragic and awful happening and saying I told you so/I told them so and having a satisfaction about it because they 'felt right' and very proud to say so...where is the pride in a loss of any life....people are dead and all some care about is who's right and who's wrong, it's staggering the coldness of it all and the absolute arrogance and self importance of an internet thread...there are no 'winners' in this, we know that in the UK and the whole world knows that because innocent people will die..../either way, innocent people will die and either way, have already...

I don't have a huge amount to say about this other than that I think you're wrong, and that I think it's very possible to do both similtaneously. At the very least, I know that I have my reasons - and usually quite specific ones - for what I say and how I say it, and none of them are about "coldness" or "not caring". I will accept arrogance and self-importance but I don't consider either of those to be insulting. You are of course 100% right about there being no winners in any of this but, in my eyes, the difference is that those who advocate bombing think (I would hope???) that there will be some form of victory in the long run whereas I am painfully aware that there will never be winners in this. We've already all lost. Years ago.

[Kizzy]

'In protest at yet another attack on a middle eastern country, veterans of the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya will discard their medals at Downing Street tomorrow.
One of the veterans, Daniel Lenham who served in the RAF from 2002 to 2014 said “In protest at the decision to bomb Syria, we will hand back medals given to us for participating in previous attacks on the Middle East.” He continued “These invasions, occupations and attacks have caused great destruction, killed hundreds of thousands of people and have led to the destruction of societies. Bombing is never a solution it is time to stop.”
David Smith who served in the Royal Green Jackets said “I want to express my utter disgust at the decision to unlawfully bomb Syria, god help all those who are likely to suffer as a result of this action. I renounce all forms of state sanctioned Warfare and Violence.”
Kirk Sollitt who served in the Gulf War said “By bombing in Syria we are killing innocent, vulnerable sentient beings, men, woman and children. You cannot sow bloodshed and reap peace. I no longer want these medals.”
Veterans For Peace is a voluntary ex-services organisation of men and women who have served in every war that Britain has fought since WW2. We exist to convince people that war is not the answer to the problems of the 21st century.'

http://veteransforpeace.org.uk/2015/...owning-street/

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

'In protest at yet another attack on a middle eastern country, veterans of the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya will discard their medals at Downing Street tomorrow.
One of the veterans, Daniel Lenham who served in the RAF from 2002 to 2014 said “In protest at the decision to bomb Syria, we will hand back medals given to us for participating in previous attacks on the Middle East.” He continued “These invasions, occupations and attacks have caused great destruction, killed hundreds of thousands of people and have led to the destruction of societies. Bombing is never a solution it is time to stop.”
David Smith who served in the Royal Green Jackets said “I want to express my utter disgust at the decision to unlawfully bomb Syria, god help all those who are likely to suffer as a result of this action. I renounce all forms of state sanctioned Warfare and Violence.”
Kirk Sollitt who served in the Gulf War said “By bombing in Syria we are killing innocent, vulnerable sentient beings, men, woman and children. You cannot sow bloodshed and reap peace. I no longer want these medals.”
Veterans For Peace is a voluntary ex-services organisation of men and women who have served in every war that Britain has fought since WW2. We exist to convince people that war is not the answer to the problems of the 21st century.'

http://veteransforpeace.org.uk/2015/...owning-street/

That's good for these brave ex-squaddies - they have a right to their opinion just the same as anyone else - but there are also thousands of other ex-servicemen who -- to a man -- are in full support of the bombing.

We can all paste snippets in support of our stance, but as Ammi has so correctly said NO ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

'In protest at yet another attack on a middle eastern country, veterans of the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya will discard their medals at Downing Street tomorrow.
One of the veterans, Daniel Lenham who served in the RAF from 2002 to 2014 said “In protest at the decision to bomb Syria, we will hand back medals given to us for participating in previous attacks on the Middle East.” He continued “These invasions, occupations and attacks have caused great destruction, killed hundreds of thousands of people and have led to the destruction of societies. Bombing is never a solution it is time to stop.”
David Smith who served in the Royal Green Jackets said “I want to express my utter disgust at the decision to unlawfully bomb Syria, god help all those who are likely to suffer as a result of this action. I renounce all forms of state sanctioned Warfare and Violence.”
Kirk Sollitt who served in the Gulf War said “By bombing in Syria we are killing innocent, vulnerable sentient beings, men, woman and children. You cannot sow bloodshed and reap peace. I no longer want these medals.”
Veterans For Peace is a voluntary ex-services organisation of men and women who have served in every war that Britain has fought since WW2. We exist to convince people that war is not the answer to the problems of the 21st century.'

http://veteransforpeace.org.uk/2015/...owning-street/

One of our clients at work is an ex war veteran that was left severely disabled whilst out in Afghanistan. He's made it perfectly clear about how he feels about bombing Syria and its very much in line with what these guys are saying here.

What these guys are doing is a pretty big statement.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

'In protest at yet another attack on a middle eastern country, veterans of the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya will discard their medals at Downing Street tomorrow.
One of the veterans, Daniel Lenham who served in the RAF from 2002 to 2014 said “In protest at the decision to bomb Syria, we will hand back medals given to us for participating in previous attacks on the Middle East.” He continued “These invasions, occupations and attacks have caused great destruction, killed hundreds of thousands of people and have led to the destruction of societies. Bombing is never a solution it is time to stop.”
David Smith who served in the Royal Green Jackets said “I want to express my utter disgust at the decision to unlawfully bomb Syria, god help all those who are likely to suffer as a result of this action. I renounce all forms of state sanctioned Warfare and Violence.”
Kirk Sollitt who served in the Gulf War said “By bombing in Syria we are killing innocent, vulnerable sentient beings, men, woman and children. You cannot sow bloodshed and reap peace. I no longer want these medals.”
Veterans For Peace is a voluntary ex-services organisation of men and women who have served in every war that Britain has fought since WW2. We exist to convince people that war is not the answer to the problems of the 21st century.'

http://veteransforpeace.org.uk/2015/...owning-street/

It's a powerful protest and one that I hope gets a lot of media attention.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

'In protest at yet another attack on a middle eastern country, veterans of the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya will discard their medals at Downing Street tomorrow.
One of the veterans, Daniel Lenham who served in the RAF from 2002 to 2014 said “In protest at the decision to bomb Syria, we will hand back medals given to us for participating in previous attacks on the Middle East.” He continued “These invasions, occupations and attacks have caused great destruction, killed hundreds of thousands of people and have led to the destruction of societies. Bombing is never a solution it is time to stop.”
David Smith who served in the Royal Green Jackets said “I want to express my utter disgust at the decision to unlawfully bomb Syria, god help all those who are likely to suffer as a result of this action. I renounce all forms of state sanctioned Warfare and Violence.”
Kirk Sollitt who served in the Gulf War said “By bombing in Syria we are killing innocent, vulnerable sentient beings, men, woman and children. You cannot sow bloodshed and reap peace. I no longer want these medals.”
Veterans For Peace is a voluntary ex-services organisation of men and women who have served in every war that Britain has fought since WW2. We exist to convince people that war is not the answer to the problems of the 21st century.'

http://veteransforpeace.org.uk/2015/...owning-street/

Just want to say good article Kizzy and I don't think, at least I haven't seen any,that there are any figures as to how veterans actually do feel as to the new action in the Middle East.

So while I would not say the veterans are against it as a majority,what this shows is the strong feeling some have to feel they want to discard medals.

That actually says a great deal and should not be dismissed as irrelevant or that it isn't a majority decision when we do not know the views of all the veterans..

[DemolitionRed]

Immediately after parliament voted in favour of military intervention in Syria, the RAF began bombing the ISIS (Daesh) controlled al-Omar oil fields. The strikes were branded as “successful” by the defence secretary.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34992032 However, according to some reports, these very same oil fields have already been destroyed. On October 23rd The Express http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...re-OBLITERATED announced the al-Omar oil fields had been “obliterated”. This was backed up by statements from US operations officer Major Michael Filanowski, who said

"There were 26 targets and all 26 were struck."

http://www.thecanary.co/2015/12/04/s...erated-russia/

[Kizzy]

Yes I'd love cameron to try his terrorist sympathiser line on them! Won't be that puffed up prat risking his life will it?

Ooops...

David Cameron has been reported to police as a "war criminal" by a trio of Scottish independence campaigners for authorising air strikes in Syria.

Members of the Scottish Resistance group walked into Rutherglen police station, near Glasgow, and handed an official complaint to an officer claiming that he had breached an obscure international agreement signed after the First World War.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6763831.html

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes I'd love cameron to try his terrorist sympathiser line on them! Won't be that puffed up prat risking his life will it?

Ooops...

David Cameron has been reported to police as a "war criminal" by a trio of Scottish independence campaigners for authorising air strikes in Syria.

Members of the Scottish Resistance group walked into Rutherglen police station, near Glasgow, and handed an official complaint to an officer claiming that he had breached an obscure international agreement signed after the First World War.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6763831.html

Well well... seems Camerons own MPs are beginning to wake up to the fact he has added massively to the destabalisation in this area.
Might be the reason for his sloping off?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7251331.html

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well well... seems Camerons own MPs are beginning to wake up to the fact he has added massively to the destabalisation in this area.
Might be the reason for his sloping off?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7251331.html

no, Cameron was right to attack Isis in Syria then, its still right now, and i would support him doing this same thing if we we had to do it all over again.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

no, Cameron was right to attack Isis in Syria then, its still right now, and i would support him doing this same thing if we we had to do it all over again.

I agree.We were already fighting ISIS in Iraq and doing well.We gained alot of ground there but as soon as they went over the Syrian border we had to let them go and regroup.Ridiculous.Their HQ is in Raqqa in Syria and needs to be destroyed.They have oil fields and supply lines in Syria which need to be destroyed also.
Syria is a mess run by a crazy dictator who bombs his own people but at the moment his enemy is also our enemy.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

no, Cameron was right to attack Isis in Syria then, its still right now, and i would support him doing this same thing if we we had to do it all over again.

I agree too. You'd imagine by some of the posts on here that these things are taken lightly and bombing is indiscriminate... which is just ridiculous. Anyway, if anyone should be supplying answers about the Middle East, it's Labour's very own Tony Blair. Who went on to become a Middle East Peace Envoy! The sheer ****ing neck of the man.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Labour's very own Tony Blair. Who went on to become a Middle East Peace Envoy! The sheer ****ing neck of the man.

The only explanation I can think of, is that when he got bored of the whole "Academia Guest Speaker" circuit and found himself with a lot of free time, he just got really into satire

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I agree too. You'd imagine by some of the posts on here that these things are taken lightly and bombing is indiscriminate... which is just ridiculous. Anyway, if anyone should be supplying answers about the Middle East, it's Labour's very own Tony Blair. Who went on to become a Middle East Peace Envoy! The sheer ****ing neck of the man.

Hey don't shoot the messenger... I'm just passing on information here.
What, do you want another Chilcot? Ok but nothing will happen an the warmongers that duped a nation will squirm out of any accountability.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

no, Cameron was right to attack Isis in Syria then, its still right now, and i would support him doing this same thing if we we had to do it all over again.

Who mentioned Syria?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who mentioned Syria?

Perhaps its the purpose of the thread ... air strikes in Syria Its been mentioned in every post bar yours

[arista]

Today Syrian
UN aid convoys halted after deadly attack near Aleppo

back to full war.

http://news.sky.com/story/syrian-aid...leppo-10585655

[Northern Monkey]

I think Lybia was a very tough decision.Gadaffi had just threatened to hunt the citizens of his country down like rats and slaughter them.Imagine if we had'nt have intervened?Don't forget too that we did'nt take action in Syria against Assad and look what he's been doing to his people.Barrel bombs and chemical weapons etc.I think these are incredibly tough decisions which should be taken on a case by case basis.

[Kizzy]

Those people will be safe in their beds now eh?..