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Crimson Dynamo · 08-10-2023, 05:05 PM

any minute now we will get the old retired IDF guy video "laughing about killing someone"

yabut whatabout when....

arista · 08-10-2023, 05:06 PM

Over 700 Israelis now murdered

All Media.

Crimson Dynamo · 08-10-2023, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arista

Over 700 Israelis now murdered

All Media.

DISGUSTING

MTVN · 08-10-2023, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Fcuking hell, dude. Anyone can be genocidal if that is the weak definition we want to use. Israel is a nuclear state with the most modern military technology available. Palestine has been bombed into the middle ages. It is not realistic in anyway to have fear for the Israeli state, and using it as a shield, and as I previously stated, is amongst the weakest possible points you could raise. it just is.

What is a legitimate response? They tried walking, and this is what happened, and comfortable people that are so outraged by yesterday, had absolutely nothing to say about these attacks that have been happening daily.

Unless you have an understanding of the last 75 years, then you really have no idea what an appropriate response is.

I like that those of us appalled about yesterday's scenes are instructed to feel otherwise because we're 'comfortable' and 'thousands of miles away' therefore can't criticise those living under occupation etc. Fair point, except those lecturing are also comfortable and live thousands of miles away, have exactly zero direct experience of the conflict, no way of relating to the fears of either side, and simply parrot whatever the latest left wing mouthpiece on twitter is saying. You have spent hours and hours putting yourself in the shoes of citizens in Gaza - very commendable - but not spared a second to try and empathise with the other side

I'm actually pretty taken aback at how far you have gone in your defence of Hamas. It confirms that there really is basically nothing they would do that you'd condemn

The Slim Reaper · 08-10-2023, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

any minute now we will get the old retired IDF guy video "laughing about killing someone"

yabut whatabout when....

Hold up lads, let professor trumpet cook.

The Slim Reaper · 08-10-2023, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTVN

I like that those of us appalled about yesterday's scenes are instructed to feel otherwise because we're 'comfortable' and 'thousands of miles away' therefore can't criticise those living under occupation etc. Fair point, except those lecturing are also comfortable and live thousands of miles away, have exactly zero direct experience of the conflict, no way of relating to the fears of either side, and simply parrot whatever the latest left wing mouthpiece on twitter is saying. You have spent hours and hours putting yourself in the shoes of citizens in Gaza - very commendable - but not spared a second to try and empathise with the other side

I'm actually pretty taken aback at how far you have gone in your defence of Hamas. It confirms that there really is basically nothing they would do that you'd condemn

Do you want to comment on the video, or just what the person who posted it said alongside it?

And there we have it...to acknowledge what is and has been happening in Palestine is not a left wing issue, or at least it shouldn't be. What else do you want me to condemn about yesterday, and I'll jump through the hoops to please you. What I won't do, is condemn the fact that they fought back, which is both their right and their duty.

Anything you don't like can be dismissed as left wing if you try hard enough. I suppose history is also left wing? Just absolute nonsense.

I haven't defended Hamas. I've repeatedly condemned their actions, so rather than concern trolling, why not learn about the region instead? This is what I don't understand, you've had 2 days to show some curiosity and you've shown none. Still pretending the attacks happened in a vacuum.

MTVN · 08-10-2023, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Do you want to comment on the video, or just what the person who posted it said alongside it?

And there we have it...to acknowledge what is and has been happening in Palestine is not a left wing issue, or at least it shouldn't be. What else do you want me to condemn about yesterday, and I'll jump through the hoops to please you. What I won't do, is condemn the fact that they fought back, which is both their right and their duty.

Anything you don't like can be dismissed as left wing if you try hard enough. I suppose history is also left wing? Just absolute nonsense.

I haven't defended Hamas. I've repeatedly condemned their actions, so rather than concern trolling, why not learn about the region instead? This is what I don't understand, you've had 2 days to show some curiosity and you've shown none. Still pretending the attacks happened in a vacuum.

Is 'concern trolling' the new catchphrase? Not really sure what it's supposed to mean

Basically your argument is they tried a peaceful walk in 2018 which ended in atrocity. Therefore the only alternative option is apparently to invade Israel and murder, rape and abduct civilians. Those are the only two possible courses of action. It's their 'duty'.

You have defended Hamas and this thread provides plenty of evidence of that. You have not really condemned the attack besides a couple of wooly statements that 'what happened was awful but...'. And you are welcome to consider me an uneducated ignoramus on Israel-Palestine relations. None of us are experts on it, yourself included. You don't need to be an expert though to realise that there can never be a justification for what has happened in the last two days. It wouldn't hurt to occasionally acknowledge both the limitations of your own knowledge and the legitimacy of an opposing point of view

Crimson Dynamo · 08-10-2023, 05:55 PM

bots · 08-10-2023, 06:23 PM

The US military is deploying naval vessels and combat aircraft to "to bolster regional deterrence efforts" amid the ongoing fighting in Israel, a Pentagon statement says.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin says a fleet of vessels centred on a US Navy aircraft carrier has been directed to the eastern Mediterranean. This deployment also includes several guided-missile cruisers and destroyers.

In addition, US Air Force squadrons in the Middle East are being augmented. "The US maintains forces globally to further reinforce this deterrence posture if required," Austin adds.

Extra resources, including munitions, are also being dispatched to Israel, with the first security assistance expected to arrive in the coming days. Austin says the action "underscores the United States’ ironclad support for the Israel Defense Forces and the Israeli people".

The Slim Reaper · 08-10-2023, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTVN

Is 'concern trolling' the new catchphrase? Not really sure what it's supposed to mean

Basically your argument is they tried a peaceful walk in 2018 which ended in atrocity. Therefore the only alternative option is apparently to invade Israel and murder, rape and abduct civilians. Those are the only two possible courses of action. It's their 'duty'.

You have defended Hamas and this thread provides plenty of evidence of that. You have not really condemned the attack besides a couple of wooly statements that 'what happened was awful but...'. And you are welcome to consider me an uneducated ignoramus on Israel-Palestine relations. None of us are experts on it, yourself included. It wouldn't hurt to occasionally acknowledge both the limitations of your own knowledge and the legitimacy of an opposing point of view

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that 60+ years of this sh1t will cause reactions, because for the millionth time, yesterday didn't happen in a vacuum and your framing is pretty pathetic.

I've never claimed to be an expert. I've said more than once that everything I've said in here can be checked and verified by individual posters (if that's how they want to spend their evenings or get their kicks), which I think is pretty intellectually honest and engaging. I want people to try and prove me wrong. But also by your own acknowledgement, I've been talking about this situation for a long time.

I intended to call you uncurious, but I never intended to call you uneducated, so genuine apologies if I've either misspoke, or you've misinterpreted my posts. That's on me either way, so my bad, but I can't be arsed to read back through this conversation to check. I regularly tell people "that's fair" or something along those lines, when they make a good point against my own, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I'm a peaceful dude. I don't want anyone to be at war with anyone else, but I support Ukraine's right to defend itself and fight back, and I support the Palestinians right to defend itself and fight back. I don't apologise for any wooliness of any statement, because I'm pretty sure that anyone that semi-knows me, including you, would never suggest I support murder and rape of any people,

Liam- · 08-10-2023, 06:29 PM

Demanding condemnation for what happened in Israel while continuously refusing to acknowledge the near century long genocide of Palestinian people and the theft of their land at the hands of Israel is peak western hypocrisy

bots · 08-10-2023, 06:37 PM

Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, told reporters the Israeli woman in the photo was forced to hold a Hamas machine gun and pose for a photo

The Slim Reaper · 08-10-2023, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

Demanding condemnation for what happened in Israel while continuously refusing to acknowledge the near century long genocide of Palestinian people and the theft of their land at the hands of Israel is peak western hypocrisy

There's just no way to know what happened before yesterday, unfortunately.

Crimson Dynamo · 08-10-2023, 06:54 PM

similar to Scotland

MTVN · 08-10-2023, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that 60+ years of this sh1t will cause reactions, because for the millionth time, yesterday didn't happen in a vacuum and your framing is pretty pathetic.

I've never claimed to be an expert. I've said more than once that everything I've said in here can be checked and verified by individual posters (if that's how they want to spend their evenings or get their kicks), which I think is pretty intellectually honest and engaging. I want people to try and prove me wrong. But also by your own acknowledgement, I've been talking about this situation for a long time.

I intended to call you uncurious, but I never intended to call you uneducated, so genuine apologies if I've either misspoke, or you've misinterpreted my posts. That's on me either way, so my bad, but I can't be arsed to read back through this conversation to check. I regularly tell people "that's fair" or something along those lines, when they make a good point against my own, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I'm a peaceful dude. I don't want anyone to be at war with anyone else, but I support Ukraine's right to defend itself and fight back, and I support the Palestinians right to defend itself and fight back. I don't apologise for any wooliness of any statement, because I'm pretty sure that anyone that semi-knows me, including you, would never suggest I support murder and rape of any people,

Well indeed hence my genuine surprise that you have been apparently quite blasé about it.

I've deliberately tried to keep the discussion by and large to yesterday because the point is that you do not need to be an expert to be appalled by what Hamas did yesterday. You do not need any prior knowledge of the conflict. Fair enough we could have that discussion if we were talking about an attack on Israel's military bases, or they had only gone after combatants, or even if it was just the rockets that they usually launch. But the way in which the attack was carried out was not warfare, it was not 'fighting back'. It was brazen war crimes with innocent people as the primary victim, something that was subsequently celebrated. The point at issue is the manner of the attack, not simply the fact they carried it out. There have been plenty of terrorist and guerilla groups in the past who would not have resorted to such acts and who have respected the distinction between civilian and combatant. Hamas did not.

The Slim Reaper · 08-10-2023, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well indeed hence my genuine surprise that you have been apparently quite blasé about it.

I've deliberately tried to keep the discussion by and large to yesterday because the point is that you do not need to be an expert to be appalled by what Hamas did yesterday. You do not need any prior knowledge of the conflict. Fair enough we could have that discussion if we were talking about an attack on Israel's military bases, or they had only gone after combatants, or even if it was just the rockets that they usually launch. But the way in which the attack was carried out was not warfare, it was not 'fighting back'. It was brazen war crimes with innocent people as the primary victim, something that was subsequently celebrated. The point at issue is the manner of the attack, not simply the fact they carried it out. There have been plenty of terrorist and guerilla groups in the past who would not have resorted to such acts and who have respected the distinction between civilian and combatant. Hamas did not.

And I think everyone on the forum (if we're keeping it super local), can be appalled by the crimes committed yesterday. But what we can't do, is pretend that's the first time these kind of crimes have happened recently, because that is a massive piece of the pie and is integral to understanding the whole issue at hand.

If I keep talking about vacuums, I think Dyson is going to offer me a job, but that's the ultimate truth.

Also, I think people (not you, specifically) view this "conflict" as 2 countries at war, with one side being the image of western democracy pitted against the evil terrorists, when it' simply is not. One side has sticks and stones to fight with, and the other has access to the US military. It's like comparing an ant with a boot.

I say we're at an impasse, because I'm happy to keep repeating that rape and murder is bad, but unless you're willing to look at how we got here, then there really isn't anywhere else to go, and I'm cool with that. We've both made our opinions known.

bots · 08-10-2023, 07:29 PM

The Israeli government formally declared war Sunday and gave the green light for “significant military steps” to retaliate against Hamas for its surprise attack, as the military tried to crush fighters still in southern towns and intensified its bombardment of the Gaza Strip. The toll passed 1,100 dead and thousands wounded on both sides.

More than 24 hours after Hamas launched its unprecedented incursion out of Gaza, Israeli forces were still trying to defeat the last groups of militants holed up in several towns. At least 700 people have reportedly been killed in Israel — a staggering toll on a scale the country has not experienced in decades — and more than 400 have been killed in Gaza as Israeli airstrikes pound the territory.

The declaration of war portended greater fighting ahead, and a major question was whether Israel would launch a ground assault into Gaza, a move that in the past has brought intensified casualties. Meanwhile, in northern Israel, a brief exchange of strikes with Lebanon’s Hezbollah militant group fanned fears that the fighting could expand into a wider regional war.

Authorities were still trying to determine how many civilians and soldiers were seized by Hamas fighters during the mayhem and taken back to Gaza. From videos and witnesses, the captives are known to include women, children and the elderly.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pa...011ce9ea805a71