[tmi]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Sorry Greg, must have misread

I think we all need to calm down

I agree

[Z]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Sorry Greg, must have misread

I think we all need to calm down

Indeed... I understand that my blunt attitude towards the news of her death will annoy people who loved her and her music, but it's not about her music, it's about her celebrity status as a drug user - she's not been in the public eye for the past four years for being a musician, it's for being a drug addict, so I think it's completely fair to be blunt about that - it comes down to whether people are sympathetic towards drug addicts or not, and I fall under the latter category having seen people I once loved go through drug addiction despite attempts from the nearest and dearest to stop it from happening.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Zee

Indeed... I understand that my blunt attitude towards the news of her death will annoy people who loved her and her music, but it's not about her music, it's about her celebrity status as a drug user - she's not been in the public eye for the past four years for being a musician, it's for being a drug addict, so I think it's completely fair to be blunt about that - it comes down to whether people are sympathetic towards drug addicts or not, and I fall under the latter category having seen people I once loved go through drug addiction despite attempts from the nearest and dearest to stop it from happening.

How can you simplify it so easily? It's not just a choice between musician and drug addict. Beneath both those lofty accolades lies a human being and that is who I am siding with.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Stu

How can you simplify it so easily? It's not just a choice between musician and drug addict. Beneath both those lofty accolades lies a human being and that is who I am siding with.

I can simplify it so easily because she's not a person I know and love on a personal level, she's a celebrity, isn't that what society does with celebrities? We discuss them on a level that's separate from them as human beings - their fans "get to know them" on a personal level (as far as one can do so as a fan without actually knowing them) - but to most people, a celebrity is just a name and a face. That's personally how I can simplify it like that, I understand that others can't, but I can. The thread in Music dedicated to her musical contributions is for discussing her music, IMO, this is for discussing her death and her status as a celebrity addict because the working assumption seems to be that her death was drink/drugs related.

[tmi]

Originally Posted by Zee

I can simplify it so easily because she's not a person I know and love on a personal level, she's a celebrity, isn't that what society does with celebrities? We discuss them on a level that's separate from them as human beings - their fans "get to know them" on a personal level (as far as one can do so as a fan without actually knowing them) - but to most people, a celebrity is just a name and a face. That's personally how I can simplify it like that, I understand that others can't, but I can. The thread in Music dedicated to her musical contributions is for discussing her music, IMO, this is for discussing her death and her status as a celebrity addict because the working assumption seems to be that her death was drink/drugs related.

I think your right about celebs they themselves class themselves has super human at the end of the day, they have to do the same things we do, wash etc. also they will die, my idol was Freddie Mercury and whatever is personal life was like his music remains long after his death, I will remember him for music not his personal life.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Zee

I can simplify it so easily because she's not a person I know and love on a personal level, she's a celebrity, isn't that what society does with celebrities? We discuss them on a level that's separate from them as human beings - their fans "get to know them" on a personal level (as far as one can do so as a fan without actually knowing them) - but to most people, a celebrity is just a name and a face. That's personally how I can simplify it like that, I understand that others can't, but I can. The thread in Music dedicated to her musical contributions is for discussing her music, IMO, this is for discussing her death and her status as a celebrity addict because the working assumption seems to be that her death was drink/drugs related.

She is not a person I know and love on a personal level either. You don't exactly need to know and love her to sympathise with the fact that a tortured soul lay beneath the media personality. And like I said that is who I am siding and sympathising with. It's not that hard. She wasn't just a caricature drug addict for goodness sake so saying 'well it's okay for me to discuss her on those terms' to me is ultra frivilous.

I wish I wasn't drunk because I have the feeling I could tear these posts apart a lot better. I'll come back in the morning.

Originally Posted by tmi

Fair dews then Stu, I will say no more, carrying on cursing.

Thank you for your effing understanding .

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Stu

How can you simplify it so easily? It's not just a choice between musician and drug addict. Beneath both those lofty accolades lies a human being and that is who I am siding with.

I have no sympathy for heavy drug users. There are many people who are human beings that I have not one iota of sympathy for. Being a human beng does not make a person something special.

AW had the world as her oyster. Had the world at her feet. She had the means to do right by herself - not others - by herself, her own life - she chose not to.

I certainly don't side with someone who has some talent, has the resources to help with her 'addictions/demons' but choses to snort it, inject, smoke and drink her life away. Why didn't respect herself: why should sympathy be expected now that the inevitable has happened? If it was not overdose but suicide: neither do I respect that. And before you ask: yes - I have experience of both affecting my life, so I'm in a position to put forth an educated and experinced point of view on those matters.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I have no sympathy for heavy drug users. There are many people who are human beings that I have not one iota of sympathy for. Being a human beng does not make a person something special.

AW had the world as her oyster. Had the world at her feet. She had the means to do right by herself - not others - by herself, her own life - she chose not to.

I certainly don't side with someone who has some talent, has the resources to help with her 'addictions/demons' but choses to snort it, inject, smoke and drink her life away. Why didn't respect herself: why should sympathy be expected now that the inevitable has happened? If it was not overdose but suicide: neither do I respect that. And before you ask: yes - I have experience of both affecting my life, so I'm in a position to put forth an educated and experinced point of view on those matters.

I have sympathy for any human being who wasn't an outwardly bad person who died before their time. It doesn't matter to me that she had it coming. I know she did. Most do. I still sympathise. That is simply where we differ. My heart bleeds for her as it does many of my own close relatives who have killed themselves with gear and booze.

They made their own bed but it doesn't stop me from grieving. That's as simpe as I can phrase my views on this.

I pity drug addicts. Absoloutely. They are lost souls and absoloutely deserve all our help for as long as they remain breathing.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I have no sympathy for heavy drug users.

nobody needs your sympathy.

But your need to ram your point home and continually insist she got what she deserved is just tasteless and unnecessary. Especially since her body is barely cold.

If you can't say anything kind or sympathetic about somebodies death then you really should just zip it. At least for a day or two. Let those who are sad mourn her death ffs.

It's not like she's a murderer who deserved to die.

[Scarlett.]

I wont remember her for her actions over the last four years, I'll remember her for 'Valerie', 'Rehab' and all her other hits, I feel sorry for her, sure she got addicted to drugs, but she was like everyone else in the world, she made bad decisions. This wasnt really helped by her mess of a dad selling stories about her to the tabloids either...

R.I.P Amy

[Tom4784]

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

Totally this.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

No, taking addictive substances is a choice. That's the point I and others I assume are trying to make, and that's where the lack of pity stems from. It's obviously sad to see somebody struggle with addiction, but I can also be unsympathetic towards them for making that choice in the first place at the same time. I am not an ignorant moron. She, or someone who loved her, could have at least tried, I think people were more interested in taking advantage of her by making money out of her rather than helping her. It is physically possible to remove yourself from harmful circumstances when you have the kind of money she had, if you really wanted to, by virtue of her not doing that, I therefore think that she didn't really want to quit and again, have no sympathy. It's just an ideological thing I think, people tend to have concrete views on addiction.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Zee

No, taking addictive substances is a choice. That's the point I and others I assume are trying to make, and that's where the lack of pity stems from. It's obviously sad to see somebody struggle with addiction, but I can also be unsympathetic towards them for making that choice in the first place at the same time. I am not an ignorant moron. She, or someone who loved her, could have at least tried, I think people were more interested in taking advantage of her by making money out of her rather than helping her. It is physically possible to remove yourself from harmful circumstances when you have the kind of money she had, if you really wanted to, by virtue of her not doing that, I therefore think that she didn't really want to quit and again, have no sympathy. It's just an ideological thing I think, people tend to have concrete views on addiction.

Absurd. ''Taking addictive substances is a choice'' is an oxymoron. Once addiction to a drug like Heroin takes hold your body demands it or it will get very, very ill. It's possible to quit ... it's always possible to quit ... but your psyche also changes and deludes you into thinking that taking drugs is the best option. That's why it's called addiction.

Think about that for a moment. I hate to sound patronising but it's so, so hard to understand unless you have been there. Your mind changes. Your very own mind. You suffer damn near hallucinations. Delusions. Physical and mental cravings telling you that you need drugs. Neurological quips that can override that small voice of sense.

Surely you also see the folly in saying she had a huge amount of money so she could have quit? A huge amount of money also means easier and faster means to get drugs.

I absoloutely agree with you on her family though. From what I understand they played a huge role in pushing her to drugs and keeping her there.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Stu

Absurd. ''Taking addictive substances is a choice'' is an oxymoron. Once addiction to a drug like Heroin takes hold your body demands it or it will get very, very ill. It's possible to quit ... it's always possible to quit ... but your psyche also changes and deludes you into thinking that taking drugs is the best option. That's why it's called addiction.

Think about that for a moment. I hate to sound patronising but it's so, so hard to understand unless you have been there. Your mind changes. Your very own mind. You suffer damn near hallucinations. Delusions. Physical and mental cravings telling you that you need drugs. Neurological quips that can override that small voice of sense.

Surely you also see the folly in saying she had a huge amount of money so she could have quit? A huge amount of money also means easier and faster means to get drugs.

I absoloutely agree with you on her family though. From what I understand they played a huge role in pushing her to drugs and keeping her there.

...yes, I'm not talking about the act of taking drugs though, I'm talking about the choice to actually take them in the first place. When you get offered, and you say yes. She's not a woman who was tricked into sex trafficking, nor was she born to a mother addicted to drugs and therefore came out of the womb addicted to them - she made a choice at some point in her life to take drugs.

Absolutely, re: her money, but if she truly wanted to quit drugs, all she had to do was take that first step of removing herself from an environment where she could access drugs. Move to the countryside. Go to an obscure island. Lock yourself in and never come out again. There are options, and she had the money to utilise them, which isn't an option available to many drug addicts.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Stu

Absurd. ''Taking addictive substances is a choice'' is an oxymoron. Once addiction to a drug like Heroin takes hold your body demands it or it will get very, very ill. It's possible to quit ... it's always possible to quit ... but your psyche also changes and deludes you into thinking that taking drugs is the best option. That's why it's called addiction.

Think about that for a moment. I hate to sound patronising but it's so, so hard to understand unless you have been there. Your mind changes. Your very own mind. You suffer damn near hallucinations. Delusions. Physical and mental cravings telling you that you need drugs. Neurological quips that can override that small voice of sense.

Surely you also see the folly in saying she had a huge amount of money so she could have quit? A huge amount of money also means easier and faster means to get drugs.

I absoloutely agree with you on her family though. From what I understand they played a huge role in pushing her to drugs and keeping her there.

I hate to quote myself but to think of a good comparison :

Imagine a schizophrenic person trying to convince themselves that the voices in their head are just that. Voices.

That's what hardcore drug addiction is. The worst of it. How come schizophrenics cannot just choose to be sane?

Drug addiction at it's worst is a mental illness.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Stu

I hate to quote myself but to think of a good comparison :

Imagine a schizophrenic person trying to convince themselves that the voices in their head are just that. Voices.

That's what hardcore drug addiction is. The worst of it. How come schizophrenics cannot just choose to be sane?

Drug addiction at it's worst is a mental illness.

• Drugs - take or leave.

• Take - chance to become addicted

• Addicted - often leads to mental illness

• Mental Illness - often leads to irrational behaviour / bad judgement

• Bad judgement: can lead to overdose or irrational decision (suicide)

Check back to the top to see what started the cycle.


Many schizophrenics have no choice in their illness.... many drugs users develop schizophrenia - through their drug habit / addiction. Then refer back to above.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

Well said. Pyramid herself has sampled drug addiction - namely Nicotine - yet refuses to legitamise my comparative arguments which are entirely credible. Tobacco slowly kills you and slowly reels you in. Crack and Heroin can kill you much faster and reel you in much faster. They are far, far, far more pleasing than tobacco.

Any regular smoker should have absoloutely symptahy and understanding for how horrific a hardcore drug addiction can be. I refuse to see the point in any 'she got what she deserved' or 'well my uncle ...' style arguments.

I'm betting she didn't actually want to die and like I said at the top of the thread ... the buck stops there for me. And even if she did screw it up for herself ... I feel sorry for her. What's the harm in that? It's a lost life for christ sake.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter before it gets messy. I've articulated myself as much as I can.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Stu

Well said. Pyramid herself has sampled drug addiction - namely Nicotine - yet refuses to legitamise my comparative arguments which are entirely credible. Tobacco slowly kills you and slowly reels you in. Crack and Heroin can kill you much faster and reel you in much faster. They are far, far, far more pleasing than tobacco.

Any regular smoker should have absoloutely symptahy and understanding for how horrific a hardcore drug addiction can be. I refuse to see the point in any 'she got what she deserved' or 'well my uncle ...' style arguments.

I'm betting she didn't actually want to die and like I said at the top of the thread ... the buck stops there for me. And even if she did screw it up for herself ... I feel sorry for her. What's the harm in that? It's a lost life for christ sake.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter before it gets messy. I've articulated myself as much as I can.

Since when did anyone die from from having a few too many fags one Saturday afternoon at the age of 27?

What happened to your prevous thought that smoking shouldn't be used as a comparison ... as you stated in your earlier post - I thought you didn't think it had any place in this type of discussion: or is it only smoking when it's referred to hash/weed/bit of skunk.

It took me twenty four hours to stop smoking dope after a daily four year habit. It's far from perfect but it shoudln't even be brought up as a point of comparison in addiction debates.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Since when did anyone die from from having a few too many fags one Saturday afternoon at the age of 27?

What happened to your prevous thought that smoking shouldn't be used as a comparison ... as you stated in your earlier post - I thought you didn't think it had any place in this type of discussion: or is it only smoking when it's referred to hash/weed/bit of skunk.

You have made this same absurd point and I have responded to it. Tobacco could kill you eventually. Cannabis will not.

I was clearly talking about Cannabis in the post you alluded to because I was responding to a post about Cannabis. Mentioning Cannabis in my post.

It doesn't matter if tobacco takes a few decades to kill you. It's still an addiction and it's still an addiction that kills. I took relativity into account in my posts. Crack could kill you within a few weeks with a heavy addiction. Tobacco could kill you within a few years with a heavy addiction.

I never once said tobacco was worse than crack. I always said it was a simple comparison to get tobacco smokers to understand and that relativity should be taken into account. Please read.

Originally Posted by Zee

...yes, I'm not talking about the act of taking drugs though, I'm talking about the choice to actually take them in the first place.

The choice leads to the act.

Originally Posted by Zee

she made a choice at some point in her life to take drugs.

As did I. As did you. Not relevant.

Originally Posted by Zee

but if she truly wanted to quit drugs, all she had to do was take that first step of removing herself from an environment where she could access drugs. Move to the countryside. Go to an obscure island. Lock yourself in and never come out again. There are options, and she had the money to utilise them, which isn't an option that many drug addicts don't have.

But she didn't make those choices. She could have. But she was a drug addict.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Stu

The choice leads to the act.


As did I. As did you. Not relevant.


But she didn't make those choices. She could have. But she was a drug addict.

I'm not addicted to drugs. She was. I made the choice to try drugs, and then didn't go back to them. She did. She could have, she didn't, she's dead and therefore it's fair enough to discuss that failure to do so without being ripped apart for not being emotionally invested in her death. It's just a difference in opinion towards the topic of drugs, it's something you and I disagree on and we have done in countless threads, I think this could go round and round in circles so this'll be my last post in this thread.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Stu

You have made this same absurd point and I have responded to it. Tobacco could kill you eventually. Cannabis will not.

I was clearly talking about Cannabis in the post you alluded to because I was responding to a post about Cannabis. Mentioning Cannabis in my post.

It doesn't matter if tobacco takes a few decades to kill you. It's still an addiction and it's still an addiction that kills. I took relativity into account in my posts. Crack could kill you within a few weeks with a heavy addiction. Tobacco could kill you within a few years with a heavy addiction.

I never once said tobacco was worse than crack. I always said it was a simple comparison to get tobacco smokers to understand and that relativity should be taken into account. Please read.


The choice leads to the act.


As did I. As did you. Not relevant.


But she didn't make those choices. She could have. But she was a drug addict.

AW didn't make the choice to take A class drugs, that would eventually kill here?

How do you suggest she got into A class drugs initially then? Are you saying she was forced, against her will?

of course she had a choice. She choose to take them....the rest led to today's events.

[tmi]

Daily star
Daily mail
The sun

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who think addiction is all about choice and that it's her own fault come across as the ignorant morons they are. I hate drugs and I hate people who take them but I understand that addiction is an illness and one that's hard to beat, you won't get over it as quickly as Phil Mitchell did in Eastenders...

Amy Winehouse was a troubled soul, she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to.

Some of us who say addiction is all about choice....'come across as the ignorant morons they are' (I thought insulting members was against the rules??).

May I'd respectfully suggest that the generalised insult you've just banded about, be tapered ... there are quite a few on this forum who have had loved ones destroyed by the very same thing and do indeed have much very personal experience upon which to put forward such views. Having such a view does not make any of us 'the ignorant morans they are'

For you to equate it - in any respect - to a character in a soap - does nothing but make a farce out of the serious nature of some drug taking. Legal or not.

Out of interest: what speciality do you have to say that 'she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to'? Are you party to some information on AW on a personal level that allows you to make such affirmation on her psyche?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Some of us who say addiction is all about choice....'come across as the ignorant morons they are' (I thought insulting members was against the rules??).

May I'd respectfully suggest that the generalised insult you've just banded about, be tapered ... there are quite a few on this forum who have had loved ones destroyed by the very same thing and do indeed have much very personal experience upon which to put forward such views. Having such a view does not make any of us 'the ignorant morans they are'

For you to equate it - in any respect - to a character in a soap - does nothing but make a farce out of the serious nature of some drug taking. Legal or not.

Out of interest: what speciality do you have to say that 'she obviously couldn't have shook the need for drugs off if she wanted to'? Are you party to some information on AW on a personal level that allows you to make such affirmation on her psyche?

Whooooosh.

Go look for an argument elsewhere Pyramid, I'm not biting tonight.