[Ammi]

..surely the question answers itself really...because if something was visible, if people who had faith and belief in something could 'see', then no faith would be required would it..I can't see love but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see hate but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see worry/stress/sadness etc but I believe because I feel/we all feel and we all have faith in something in our lives...and things that aren't 'visible'...because that is the whole point and definition of faith isn't it...and with a God, if that's where some people's faith lies..?..well it's one of those things really, that a big part of that surely is that they will never 'meet' in life in terms of actually seeing their God, because that meeting for them won't come until death..but they have faith in life and although they don't 'see', they feel, they feel their God in life...but it's no different really when you think about it for many people who only believe in 'proven'...scientists can spend their whole entire lives having faith in something, in it's existence etc and the trying to prove it and can go into death never having done so/so for them it's been a belief and a faith really...this scientist 'proved' this/this scientist proved that...this is the date/this is the time when it was proven and then it became 'fact'..but how many scientists before in their lifetime's works/studies/research etc were never able to, so all they had was their total faith and their belief to be true...(and also many things still to be proven in an absolute way..)..

...anyways, just like everything else, there is interpretation and the 'slanting' of religion to try to excuse and to try justify in cases of intolerances/prejudices etc and the extremes of terrorist act...but there are also many people of religion that interpret positively as well and feel that their religion helps them to be more tolerant/less prejudice etc...and that's because people are people/always have been and always will be and good/bad/positive/negative/extremes of and all the in-betweens of...

[Ammi]

..as for the greed/exploitation etc side of religion, well yes obviously because there will always be that as well where there is human ...but as has been said before in these discussions, there are many who have absolutely nothing at all 'to give' and their lives can have lost all faith or positivity in anything but some small positivity can be achieved by the in finding a faith/a small positivity that could grow and personally help them so much...much the same really I suppose as with a self-help type book, of which there are many..for some those self-help books will become a 'bible'/type thing in their lives and for others, just not apply at all and be complete rubbish/and 'made up nonsense' written to 'make rich' the author and to 'exploit' low times/lost times etc in people's lives...it's all what people take from those books really and how they apply what is taken...

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..surely the question answers itself really...because if something was visible, if people who had faith and belief in something could 'see', then no faith would be required would it..I can't see love but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see hate but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see worry/stress/sadness etc but I believe because I feel/we all feel and we all have faith in something in our lives...and things that aren't 'visible'...because that is the whole point and definition of faith isn't it...and with a God, if that's where some people's faith lies..?..well it's one of those things really, that a big part of that surely is that they will never 'meet' in life in terms of actually seeing their God, because that meeting for them won't come until death..but they have faith in life and although they don't 'see', they feel, they feel their God in life...but it's no different really when you think about it for many people who only believe in 'proven'...scientists can spend their whole entire lives having faith in something, in it's existence etc and the trying to prove it and can go into death never having done so/so for them it's been a belief and a faith really...this scientist 'proved' this/this scientist proved that...this is the date/this is the time when it was proven and then it became 'fact'..but how many scientists before in their lifetime's works/studies/research etc were never able to, so all they had was their total faith and their belief to be true...(and also many things still to be proven in an absolute way..)..

...anyways, just like everything else, there is interpretation and the 'slanting' of religion to try to excuse and to try justify in cases of intolerances/prejudices etc and the extremes of terrorist act...but there are also many people of religion that interpret positively as well and feel that their religion helps them to be more tolerant/less prejudice etc...and that's because people are people/always have been and always will be and good/bad/positive/negative/extremes of and all the in-betweens of...

Beautifully put Ammi......that's what I was trying to say in the first pages but you have put it perfectly

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..surely the question answers itself really...because if something was visible, if people who had faith and belief in something could 'see', then no faith would be required would it..I can't see love but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see hate but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see worry/stress/sadness etc but I believe because I feel/we all feel and we all have faith in something in our lives...and things that aren't 'visible'...because that is the whole point and definition of faith isn't it...and with a God, if that's where some people's faith lies..?..well it's one of those things really, that a big part of that surely is that they will never 'meet' in life in terms of actually seeing their God, because that meeting for them won't come until death..but they have faith in life and although they don't 'see', they feel, they feel their God in life...but it's no different really when you think about it for many people who only believe in 'proven'...scientists can spend their whole entire lives having faith in something, in it's existence etc and the trying to prove it and can go into death never having done so/so for them it's been a belief and a faith really...this scientist 'proved' this/this scientist proved that...this is the date/this is the time when it was proven and then it became 'fact'..but how many scientists before in their lifetime's works/studies/research etc were never able to, so all they had was their total faith and their belief to be true...(and also many things still to be proven in an absolute way..)..

...anyways, just like everything else, there is interpretation and the 'slanting' of religion to try to excuse and to try justify in cases of intolerances/prejudices etc and the extremes of terrorist act...but there are also many people of religion that interpret positively as well and feel that their religion helps them to be more tolerant/less prejudice etc...and that's because people are people/always have been and always will be and good/bad/positive/negative/extremes of and all the in-betweens of...

hate love anger are just our words to describe human emotions. They are not the same as a god who can supposedly make galaxies, part seas and burn bushes

I can see an angry person or a sad persons as that person is there in front of me. Descriptions of feelings are just that but they relate to a flesh and blood human and not an invisible deity

[Josy]

God isn't an object, he is love, therefore it's up to an individual person whether they want/allow god to exist in their lives or not.

[kirklancaster]

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.

God 'communicated' via his Angels to many people in the Old Testament, and to his Prophets and many others, by a form of what we now term 'telepathy' which they - in their limited knowledge termed 'dreams' or 'visions'.

Yet God DID physically appear on numerous occasions to others in the Old Testament:
Adam and Eve
Cain and Abel
Noah and his wife and sons.
Abraham
Sarah
Hagar
Ishmael
Rebekah
Joseph
Jacob
Solomon
Job
Isaiah
Micaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Nebuchadnezza
Shadrach, Meshach,Abed-Nego
Belshazzar and company of ,1000 lords at feast
Daniel
Amos
Jonah
Habakkuk
Zechariah
Elijah
Elisha
David

And let's not forget the most famous example of man meeting a visible God; Moses, who came back down Sinai after receiving the Commandments, and was transfigured and his skin 'glowing' and 'shining':

Exodus 34:29

"29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him.

31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them.

32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai".

And this is NOT the only time those who 'met' God were transfigured and became 'Shining Ones'.

In the New Testament, GOD appears before EVERYONE, from the Israelites to the Romans and others, in the form of Jesus of Nazareth - The Christ or Messiah.

YOU are looking and approching this subject through very ordinary HUMAN eyes, and within the very strict and narrow parameters of knowledge which even the most intellectual and learned of humans are unfortunately shackled by.

WHY - if God exists (and I KNOW that he does) - should we humans dare to know HIS mind, or understand HIS works?

The most intellectal, scientific or creative of us, fail miserably when attempting to understand a concept so unimaginable and unfathomable as God, and we close our feeble minds altogether, or hide behind Darwin's increasingly discredited and flawed 'Origin of Species' or the error-riddled sweeping presumptions of Dawkins, or we fall in 'lock, stock, and barrel' with the 'God was an Alien' types of theories, because Aliens (which I also firmly believe in the existence of) are more 'technological' and therefore dovetail more neatly into our 'scientific' mindsets.

The text of the Bible and other scriptures may at times appear self-contradictory or to paint God as a murderous, wrathful, and positively evil deity, but this is a HUGE error being repeatedly made on here by 'Religion bashers' and 'Atheists', because they are confusing the WORD of God with the word of God as corrupted and altered over thousands of years by countless corrupt MEN for their own very HUMAN ends.

In Walter Millers great post-nuclear dystopian Science Fiction masterpiece "A Canticle for Leibowitz", the monk Liebowitz finds a tattered fragment of an ordinary pre-apocolypse shopping list - including 'pastrami' - and this is subsequently hailed as a 'sacred relic'.

A mistake in perception and translation - yes.

But proof that whoever wrote that list EXISTED and that it had an original purpose.

Do not deny God's message because we are not yet equipped to understand it.

And don't blame God for Man's doing.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

hate love anger are just our words to describe human emotions. They are not the same as a god who can supposedly make galaxies, part seas and burn bushes

I can see an angry person or a sad persons as that person is there in front of me. Descriptions of feelings are just that but they relate to a flesh and blood human and not an invisible deity

..you can take the literal meanings if you want to/not you personally be people with faith can...because again, interpretations which can interpret the negatives only of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth/type thing/and extreme must slay all of the 'sinners' or 'non believers'...or that the son of God actually did those things/parted the Red Sea..or that in having faith in something/believing that you can do something 'an impossible' can help people in their lives in many ways..it really is all down to interpretation and that will always be different...not because of faith/religion but because people/humans...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Josy

God isn't an object, he is love, therefore it's up to an individual person whether they want/allow god to exist in their lives or not.

You've got the point over in a sentence which says it all really.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you can take the literal meanings if you want to/not you personally be people with faith can...because again, interpretations which can interpret the negatives only of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth/type thing/and extreme must slay all of the 'sinners' or 'non believers'...or that the son of God actually did those things/parted the Red Sea..or that in having faith in something/believing that you can do something 'an impossible' can help people in their lives in many ways..it really is all down to interpretation and that will always be different...not because of faith/religion but because people/humans...

THIS and your other posts =

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Josy

God isn't an object, he is love, therefore it's up to an individual person whether they want/allow god to exist in their lives or not.

I presume you are referring to the Christian God, if so then I am afraid that is not what the bible says.


In fact that particular god hated on quite a lot of things and indeed people and nations


and love is a very fickle and ambiguous human emotion -hence the very high divorce rate

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you can take the literal meanings if you want to/not you personally be people with faith can...because again, interpretations which can interpret the negatives only of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth/type thing/and extreme must slay all of the 'sinners' or 'non believers'...or that the son of God actually did those things/parted the Red Sea..or that in having faith in something/believing that you can do something 'an impossible' can help people in their lives in many ways..it really is all down to interpretation and that will always be different...not because of faith/religion but because people/humans...

its down interpretation because it is fictitious, just like we can analyse shakespeare and come up with many interpretations

the reason gods are invisible is because they do not exist, like Loch Ness monster, the yeti, leprechauns and the like

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

faith is just believing in stuff with no evidence

I dont find that admirable, in many respects its rather foolish

Maybe Christians have enough evidence,by the amazing things around us,that we as humans still manage to annihilate.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

its down interpretation because it is fictitious, just like we can analyse shakespeare and come up with many interpretations

the reason gods are invisible is because they do not exist, like Loch Ness monster, the yeti, leprechauns and the like

Does the air around us not exist then LT or even space itself ?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Maybe Christians have enough evidence,by the amazing things around us,that we as humans still manage to annihilate.

if you are referring to scenery, mountains etc we fully understand how they came about and indeed why they are here, there is no need to think some invisible god swished a magic wand and made them

[user104658]

Almost every justification for a defined or organised religion (in this thread and elsewhere) ends up boiling down to the same basic thing:

An attempt to explain the unexplained and the unexplainable in simplistic, humanised ways using human faces and human emotions.

Actually, these days it's often things that can be explained, but only in concepts that are not easily digested by most people.

That's not even arrogance - I'm not saying that I fully understand or can easily digest high level physics like quantum mechanics or the intricacies of space-time - but I do know that others do have a much higher level of understanding of these things and I'm content with that. I don't feel the need to bulge my eyes at these mysteries and say "OMG shrug guess it must be God."

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Almost every justification for a defined or organised religion (in this thread and elsewhere) ends up boiling down to the same basic thing:

An attempt to explain the unexplained and the unexplainable in simplistic, humanised ways using human faces and human emotions.

Actually, these days it's often things that can be explained, but only in concepts that are not easily digested by most people.

That's not even arrogance - I'm not saying that I fully understand or can easily digest high level physics like quantum mechanics or the intricacies of space-time - but I do know that others do have a much higher level of understanding of these things and I'm content with that. I don't feel the need to bulge my eyes at these mysteries and say "OMG shrug guess it must be God."

what is baffling s that for any of the "believers" claims to be true we would need to throw away every piece of scientific evidence that humanity has gathered and claim it false!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what is baffling s that for any of the "believers" claims to be true we would need to throw away every piece of scientific evidence that humanity has gathered and claim it false!

There are usually caveats and excuses for either twisting the science to fit the book, the book to fit the science, or just somehow finding a tiny flaw and using it to reject entire concepts.

I sometimes find the sheer level of determined denial involved in devout religious belief quite staggering. Scary, even. I'm not joking. The psychological defences that people have around their various faiths. Again explainable though really - as many have used Gods and Religions to deal with difficult or otherwise traumatic experiences, or to form their entire concept of morality, and so questioning or "losing faith" once it's established becomes an absolutely gigantic can of worms. Opening old wounds that were patched over with faith, or setting people adrift without a replacement sense of self or direction.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what is baffling s that for any of the "believers" claims to be true we would need to throw away every piece of scientific evidence that humanity has gathered and claim it false!

There are plenty of religious scientists who would disagree with what you say and I'd wager that they know more about the relationship between science and God than either of us. You don't believe and have no faith. I find that difficult to understand just like you find faith in God difficult to understand. Doesn't make either of us right, of course. It just means we should perhaps respect each other's right to freedom of religion... or lack of it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

There are plenty of religious scientists who would disagree with what you say and I'd wager that they know more about the relationship between science and God than either of us. You don't believe and have no faith. I find that difficult to understand just like you find faith in God difficult to understand. Doesn't make either of us right, of course. It just means we should perhaps respect each other's right to freedom of religion... or lack of it.

This is a myth, there are relatively very few (well known) scientists who are religious in anything other than a vaguely spiritual sense.

Its like the fable that Einstein was a devout Christian. Which is simply false. Not sure if that's down to a misinterpretation of a few things he said, or a straight up lie peddled by Christians, but yeah... Einstein went back and forth regarding the existence of "some sort of" God or creator and he was certainly not religious.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..surely the question answers itself really...because if something was visible, if people who had faith and belief in something could 'see', then no faith would be required would it..I can't see love but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see hate but I believe in it because I feel it, I can't see worry/stress/sadness etc but I believe because I feel/we all feel and we all have faith in something in our lives...and things that aren't 'visible'...because that is the whole point and definition of faith isn't it...and with a God, if that's where some people's faith lies..?..well it's one of those things really, that a big part of that surely is that they will never 'meet' in life in terms of actually seeing their God, because that meeting for them won't come until death..but they have faith in life and although they don't 'see', they feel, they feel their God in life...but it's no different really when you think about it for many people who only believe in 'proven'...scientists can spend their whole entire lives having faith in something, in it's existence etc and the trying to prove it and can go into death never having done so/so for them it's been a belief and a faith really...this scientist 'proved' this/this scientist proved that...this is the date/this is the time when it was proven and then it became 'fact'..but how many scientists before in their lifetime's works/studies/research etc were never able to, so all they had was their total faith and their belief to be true...(and also many things still to be proven in an absolute way..)..

...anyways, just like everything else, there is interpretation and the 'slanting' of religion to try to excuse and to try justify in cases of intolerances/prejudices etc and the extremes of terrorist act...but there are also many people of religion that interpret positively as well and feel that their religion helps them to be more tolerant/less prejudice etc...and that's because people are people/always have been and always will be and good/bad/positive/negative/extremes of and all the in-betweens of...

If awards were ever given for posts on here than this one should get one for sure.

Brilliantly put,a superb read and full of thought provoking wording.
This really is one your best ever posts Ammi.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is a myth, there are relatively very few (well known) scientists who are religious in anything other than a vaguely spiritual sense.

Its like the fable that Einstein was a devout Christian. Which is simply false. Not sure if that's down to a misinterpretation of a few things he said, or a straight up lie peddled by Christians, but yeah... Einstein went back and forth regarding the existence of "some sort of" God or creator and he was certainly not religious.

Einstein was a Jew.

And actually, the existence of religious scientists is not a myth at all. We have one in the family... I've mentioned him before. A physicist. Of course people on here have said he can't possibly be religious and a Jew because it doesn't fit in with their own opinions. And obviously they know more about him and his beliefs than he does.

[DemolitionRed]

I honestly don't know why it matters. I'm not religious and I don't appreciate pushy Christians trying to convince me to embrace Christ. I don't like the way pushy Christians will try and convert those who are facing tragedy or have low self-esteem. I have no problem with my own beliefs in God but I don't want to be told that my beliefs are wrong and its their way or the highway.

I also don't like to see the none religious trying to convince the religious that its all nonsense. Just as they have a right to believe its nonsense, religious people have a right to believe its real. If we try to convince them otherwise, doesn't that put us in the same category as the pushy Christians?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I honestly don't know why it matters. I'm not religious and I don't appreciate pushy Christians trying to convince me to embrace Christ. I don't like the way pushy Christians will try and convert those who are facing tragedy or have low self-esteem. I have no problem with my own beliefs in God but I don't want to be told that my beliefs are wrong and its their way or the highway.

I also don't like to see the none religious trying to convince the religious that its all nonsense. Just as they have a right to believe its nonsense, religious people have a right to believe its real. If we try to convince them otherwise, doesn't that put us in the same category as the pushy Christians?

If there was no religion in schools and no religion in politics then no one would care if you believe in gods. If religion wasnt the root source of terrorism no one would care


Sadly all 3 things exist so it needs to be exposed as frequently as possible

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I honestly don't know why it matters. I'm not religious and I don't appreciate pushy Christians trying to convince me to embrace Christ. I don't like the way pushy Christians will try and convert those who are facing tragedy or have low self-esteem. I have no problem with my own beliefs in God but I don't want to be told that my beliefs are wrong and its their way or the highway.

I also don't like to see the none religious trying to convince the religious that its all nonsense. Just as they have a right to believe its nonsense, religious people have a right to believe its real. If we try to convince them otherwise, doesn't that put us in the same category as the pushy Christians?

Completely agree. Was just coming in to saw something very similar. I have never, and will never, disclose my own faith or lack of on these boards but can see both sides of the argument and I find that the cynicism and derision by some on here to be so disrespectful to those who do believe. I have found in every one of these threads (and there has been many over the years) that the people of no belief are the ones who use negative words to discuss those with faith and not vice versa. Every person is their own person with their own belief sets, no-one should push their beliefs (whatever they may be) on anyone. Live and let live people

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

Einstein was a Jew.

And actually, the existence of religious scientists is not a myth at all. We have one in the family... I've mentioned him before. A physicist. Of course people on here have said he can't possibly be religious and a Jew because it doesn't fit in with their own opinions. And obviously they know more about him and his beliefs than he does.

His parents were non-observant jews and he was brought up in a catholic school


In the days of Einstein being an atheist would have closed every door available to him to study so he like many said he was agnostic

He proffered to take this view towards religion "an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being"



In other words he fully understood why religion was prevalent whilst at the same time demolishing it piece by piece with logic, evidence and reason