[Nicky91]

not choosing either side myself in this


Hamas are bad


but Israel are bad too

[Crimson Dynamo]

[arista]

Yes in the UK
they are Terrorists,
but the BBC say Hamas are militants?

They could tell the British Public
why they are against calling them Terrorists.

[Nicky91]

they aren't terrorists

ISIL, Al Qaeda that are terrorists


Hamas are a militant organization, also said so by its wikipedia article

is a Palestinian Sunni-Islamic fundamentalist, militant, and nationalist organization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


certain countries have labelled them ''terrorists'' yes but they are officially ''militants'' so BBC are kinda correct, to say something different than how politicians label them

[Nicky91]

as if Israel are that perfect anyway, answering violence with more violence yup


not every palestinian is part of Hamas though, and i bet israeli's have killed many innocents too



and this is not something from now, but something what has been going on for more than 40 years now

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

as if Israel are that perfect anyway, answering violence with more violence yup


not every palestinian is part of Hamas though, and i bet israeli's have killed many innocents too



and this is not something from now, but something what has been going on for more than 40 years now

Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation under UK law

wikipedia is bollox and changes daily like the wind

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

not choosing either side myself in this


Hamas are bad


but Israel are bad too

Originally Posted by Nicky91

they aren't terrorists

ISIL, Al Qaeda that are terrorists


Hamas are a militant organization, also said so by its wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


certain countries have labelled them ''terrorists'' yes but they are officially ''militants'' so BBC are kinda correct, to say something different than how politicians label them

Originally Posted by Nicky91

as if Israel are that perfect anyway, answering violence with more violence yup


not every palestinian is part of Hamas though, and i bet israeli's have killed many innocents too



and this is not something from now, but something what has been going on for more than 40 years now

You've said some pretty dumb-arse stuff on here... but this takes the biscuit.

[joeysteele]

This is really worrying and desperately sad.

However for me, Israel's patience has been pushed to the limit.
I am sorry for all losses of lives in wars or otherwise.
However I stand completely with Israel and it's right to defend itself.

I just hope this new conflict can be defused as quickly as possible.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is really worrying and desperately sad.

However for me, Israel's patience has been pushed to the limit.
I am sorry for all losses of lives in wars or otherwise.
However I stand completely with Israel and it's right to defend itself.

I just hope this new conflict can be defused as quickly as possible.

Prisoner Exchange
could be set up
by a 3rd party.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is really worrying and desperately sad.

However for me, Israel's patience has been pushed to the limit.
I am sorry for all losses of lives in wars or otherwise.
However I stand completely with Israel and it's right to defend itself.

I just hope this new conflict can be defused as quickly as possible.

I agree Joey I just hope they defend themselves with scalpels rather than sledgehammers... but I just can't see that being the case. I think Palestine may well be reduced to rubble, and that goes beyond reasonable defense.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I agree Joey I just hope they defend themselves with scalpels rather than sledgehammers... but I just can't see that being the case. I think Palestine may well be reduced to rubble, and that goes beyond reasonable defense.

The best result for everyone involved (especially Palestinians) would be the rapid removal of Hamas.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

The best result for everyone involved (especially Palestinians) would be the rapid removal of Hamas.

But they were Elected.

[bots]

this conflict is going to expand, it's inevitable. I hate to think where this is going to end

[user104658]

I think this is a particularly sad example of war - which of course is always devastating. Politically it's near-impossible to paint a good guy/bad guy scenario. Realistically, that's pretty much always the case (the world operates in the grey, that's just how it is) but even moreso here; an insurgency led by terrorism can never be seen as a good thing. Israeli apartheid, and the abysmal conditions in Palestine that contribute to radicalisation can never be seen as a good thing, and in terms of global history, the fact that Israel exists as a state at all is a complete political anomaly -- endless bloodshed being an all but inevitable part of it, which the Powers The Be at the time simply MUST have known. And the justification is largely religion/bloodright type stuff which is of course ... questionable.

But on top of that; the vast majority of the victims, even moreso than a "conventional" war, are going to be innocent civilians who have absolutely nothing to do with the politics of it. The terrorist atrocities carried out against innocent people in Israel are unthinkable. Israel will undoubtedly respond with a bombing campaign, perhaps a US-style "shock and awe" bombing campain, and the victims will mostly be ... again ... innocent people.

It's a really abysmal war.

[bots]

Israel took out 1000 infrastructure targets last night alone. While hamas still have the will to continue, their ability to do so has been surgically cut off. Now it's a case of neutralising the threats within Israel itself and then making sure that none of the other hostile entities that surround them take advantage.

Getting back the hostages is going to be priority number one shortly i would have thought

[arista]

Sadly Some Prisoners
being held in Gaza
have died, because of Israeli Fighter Jet Bombs

SkyNewsHD Live

[arista]

[Israel orders 'complete siege' of Gaza,
cutting off food and electricity,
and prepares for massive ground offensive
'within 48 hours' in response to
Jewish state's 'worst day in history'

Israel continued to relentlessly pound the
Gaza strip this morning with air strikes
Israel Palestine war LIVE: Jewish state prepares
massive ground offensive]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ish-state.html

[user104658]

All but guaranteeing the creation of a new generation of extremists. The wheel keeps on turning.

[The Slim Reaper]

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

Yes,
they are turning off power
to flush out Hamas gunmen

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes,
they are turning off power
to flush out Hamas gunmen

They've been turning off power and water, including cementing the wells that provide water to Palestinians for a long, long time. Same with electricity and the absolute most basic of human rights.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

They've been turning off power and water, including cementing the wells that provide water to Palestinians for a long, long time. Same with electricity and the absolute most basic of human rights.

Not in a State of War



Hamas attacked them on a Holiday
they were not prepared

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's not extreme to want to live in your own country and have rights. The fact that Israel has the capability to instantly disable all supplies of electricity and water to a neighbouring country should tell anyone exactly what kind of relationship exists between them. It's an occupation, not a war.

I'm saying that the death of innocent civilians when the bombs start dropping is what opens people up to radicalisation in general; when you create a situation where people have nothing to lose, you all but guarantee it. Trying to frame (at least semi) organised elements like Hamas and Hezbollah as anything other than extremist is disingenuous - they clearly do utilise weaponised extremism - but the pictures above paint a stark picture of why people can be taken down that path.

As for whether it's a war or occupation, I'd actually go as far as to say it's basically historically unique (not this conflict; the entire history of modern Israel). It was a terrible idea at the time, it was carried out as a kneejerk solution after WW2, and it remains a terrible idea to this day. I can't think of any example of anything even vaguely similar politically, currently or throughout history.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I'm saying that the death of innocent civilians when the bombs start dropping is what opens people up to radicalisation in general; when you create a situation where people have nothing to lose, you all but guarantee it. Trying to frame (at least semi) organised elements like Hamas and Hezbollah as anything other than extremist is disingenuous - they clearly do utilise weaponised extremism - but the pictures above paint a stark picture of why people can be taken down that path.

As for whether it's a war or occupation, I'd actually go as far as to say it's basically historically unique (not this conflict; the entire history of modern Israel). It was a terrible idea at the time, it was carried out as a kneejerk solution after WW2, and it remains a terrible idea to this day. I can't think of any example of anything even vaguely similar politically, currently or throughout history.

This is exactly what they've been living through already though. What is about to happen to them is a more concentrated version of their daily lives.

Here's the issue; elements of Hamas are undoubtedly motivated by extremism, and yet they're the only people providing charity and welfare to these people. painting them completely as a bunch of terrorists makes things neat and tidy to ignore the absolute and real terrorist actors, which is the Israeli government. Ukraine are freedom fighters, yet Palestinians are terrorist is pure western make believe.

A powerless people only has "terror" available as a come back. They have nothing else. The withdrawal of the basic things needed to sustain life by an occupier, is pure terrorism.

The fact it's an occupation is not really up for debate. I agree with some of what you say regarding the drawing of maps by Western powers ultimately coming back to haunt us, but we do have parallels from fairly recent history, such as the intentional starving of the Irish by the British government during the famine, and more specifically to scale, with the apartheid regime of south Africa.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

This is exactly what they've been living through, already though. What is about to happen to them is a more concentrated version of their daily lives.

Here's the issue; elements of Hamas are undoubtedly motivated by extremism, and yet they're the only people providing charity and welfare to these people. painting them completely as a bunch of terrorists makes things neat and tidy to ignore the absolute and real terrorist actors, which is the Israeli government. Ukraine are freedom fighters, yet Palestinians are terrorist is pure western make believe.

A powerless people only has "terror" available as a come back. They have nothing else. The withdrawal of the basic things needed to sustain life by an occupier, is pure terrorism.

The fact it's an occupation is not really up for debate. I agree with some of what you say regarding the drawing of maps by Western powers ultimately coming back to haunt us, but we do have parallels from fairly recent history, such as the intentional starving of the Irish by the British government during the famine, and more specifically to scale, with the apartheid regime of south Africa.

I do get what you're saying but the actions taken and the methods used by the Palestinians who crossed the border can't be justified and I feel this flirts a little close to justification above and beyond explanation. I accept it as inevitable and I accept it as an accurate description of the explanation, but have to totally reject the torture and murder of civilians as justified, even when retaliatory.