[Angus]

defend the Labour war criminals waging an illegal war in Iraq? Let's have your reasoned and valid justifications for going to war and for the loss of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and thousands of British lives fighting a war that was waged on the basis of blatant LIES and DECEPTION told to the other parties and to the country by Blair, Brown, Mandelson, Campbell, and the rest of the lying, cheating, corrupt Labour government.

[Sticks]

I am not a labour supporter by nature, if I ever vote for them it will be for tactical reasons only

That said

Saddam was lying and cheating over WMDs

Remember Halabjah? or was that an Israeli backed CIA weapons test? The tone of the OP, I would not be surprised if that is what they belived.

Getting back to Saddam, he played a never ending cat and mouse game with the UN weapons inspection team that by a UN resolution after the first Gulf War were mandated to seek out his WMD programme.

It became obvious to some, but obviously not all that Saddam may have wanted everyone to think he had WMDs and was prepared to use them (Again Remember that obvious CIA / Israel Weapons test at Halabjah). This is a well recognised gambit that also exists in the animal kingdom. If you make your enemies think you have mega weapons, then that scares them off (Hoverfly v wasp comes to mind).

Saddam most likely thought that if the world believed he had WMDs then we in the soft and decadent west would not dare attack him. So he lied and cheated and made life difficult for the UN weapons inspectors and gave the impression he was hiding something.

The west called his bluff and showed we were not as soft and decadent as he believed.

If your enemy is giving a clear impression they have WMDs and are prepared to use them, is it any wonder that they may take action?

Saddam put up a bluff and grossly misjudged what the response would be.

We reacted to a threat that was perceived. It was only after the war with 20/20 hind sight did we discover Saddam was not as armed to the teeth as we thought he was.

If Saddam had been more co-operative with the UN Weapons inspectors the war need not have happened.

Responsibility for the ensuing actions therefore lie at his feet.

The other scenario is that Saddam had subcontracted development to Syria and when the war kicked off, they spirited them away.
Here is a question, suppose we actually had found WMDs how would you feel?

[Sticks]

Also I almost forgot the role of the French and the Russians in all this

We needed a second UN resolution and those countries pledged to veto any such resolution

Why?

Both countries were up to their necks in trading with the Saddam regime in defiance of UN Sanctions.

Had they not been so interested in their grubby little trade deals with a vile dictator we would have got the second UN resolution and perhaps the war need not have happened.

I do not see you blaming the French and the Russians for what happened.

[arista]

Sticks this is Not Zimbawe
this is the UK.



We can not have Yet Another UnElected New Labour Leader.


We had 3 TV debates
he or she was not on them.



This is About Our Democracy.


The Markets say no LabLib

We do not want to become another Greece.

[ElProximo]

A Just war. Not an 'easy call' but a good call and the right thing.

Not a Labour Supporter but credit where its due - they did the right thing in this case despite being a difficult choice.

[arista]

[ange7]

great post Sticks ... as usual

[Tom4784]

Now you're just trying to bait people Angus, why don't YOU try to justify the Thatcher reign? Chances are you've got what you wanted and now you're just sticking the boot in. I thought more of you then that....Well before all this election business but you've been petty as hell taking shots at anyone who doesn't agree with you just like a typical tory.

[ange7]

Dezzy's angry face is angry

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by ange7

Dezzy's angry face is angry

Even Arista's avatar cowers before my said angry face.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by angus58

defend the Labour war criminals waging an illegal war in Iraq? Let's have your reasoned and valid justifications for going to war and for the loss of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and thousands of British lives fighting a war that was waged on the basis of blatant LIES and DECEPTION told to the other parties and to the country by Blair, Brown, Mandelson, Campbell, and the rest of the lying, cheating, corrupt Labour government.

Don't you think you're getting a bit carried away with your Tory propoganda and your dislike of the Labour party - it is getting a bit tedious now! You sound like a party political broadcast for the Tories most of the time - lets not forget this is a bb chat forum - no need to be so heavy handed with the politics!

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Don't you think you're getting a bit carried away with your Tory propoganda and your dislike of the Labour party - it is getting a bit tedious now! You sound like a party political broadcast for the Tories most of the time - lets not forget this is a bb chat forum - no need to be so heavy handed with the politics!

Well said Wombai

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Well said Wombai

that deserves a frame and a clean wall

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

that deserves a frame and a clean wall

Why is that then LT?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Why is that then LT?

hens teeth

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Well said Wombai

And there was I thinking it was a forum for "serious debates" since there are plenty of other "chat forums" on TIBB if that's what you want.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by angus58

And there was I thinking it was a forum for "serious debates" since there are plenty of other "chat forums" on TIBB if that's what you want.

Serious debates it is - which of course includes politics - but your posts, although very well written, are very abrasive and repetitive! Just grates a bit! Could well have the opposite effect of what you would like!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Serious debates it is - which of course includes politics - but your posts, although very well written, are very abrasive and repetitive! Just grates a bit! Could well have the opposite effect of what you would like!

There are plenty of threads on here which I find irritating, ridiculous, poorly argued, repetitive, pointless etc, and for that reason I do not bother to respond at all. Or are you suggesting my threads should be censured because YOU or anyone else doesn't like them? But I guess Labour supporters subscribe to the same ideology as the party they support, to seek to drown out dissenting voices instead of allowing others freedom of speech -after all just look at their behaviour post election, still clinging onto power when they have absolutely no mandate to govern.

If you don't like my tory politics and see a thread I have started, it sounds rather masochistic of you to join it just to be bored or irritated.

And by the way, still haven't read a single valid argument for the illegal Iraqi war, just a lot of regurgitated Labour spin - they really have done a number on many of you!

[Crimson Dynamo]

labour are a shambles

reid and blunket fired the death salvo


the next leader? - look at the choices

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Spike]

A thread just to bash Labour I see. This Tory bias of your posts is become very boring and repetitive now and i'm sure people would value your posts more if you weren't so biased.
I see no mention of The Conservatives in your post, thats strange seeing as they also openly support the war in Iraq..

Anyway back onto the topic, I don't know how I feel about the war. I'm really split on the issue. I see why we went to war and I think at the time it was justified with the fear that Iraq had these Weapons of Mass Destruction. However looking back, we didn't find any of these, so yeah it probably was a mistake. What was best at the time was done by our government, they weren't willing to take the risk and carry on with Saddam's defiance.

[BB_Eye]

I hated the Iraq war, but lets not pretend the Tories wouldn't have been just as happy to aid Bush in everything he did. They even supported the war at the time back in '03 as did the Tory press.

[Angus]

Let's see, you don't support Labour nor the Tories, so it's either LibDems (watered down version of Labour), or an "Other" O..kay then.

Unless I am breaking any forum rules I will continue to blithely start threads and make posts without worrying whether other FMS are irritated, bored or turned off. After all, I have had the misfortune to read many a virtually illiterate, rambling, offensive, abusive and quite frankly totally "point"less post from FMs who seem unable to string a sentence together. I choose to ignore the worst offenders since it is as much their right to post as it is mine, and I wouldn't presume to comment on that right.

By the way, still waiting for any valid justifications/arguments - still none forthcoming. I rest my case.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by angus58

Let's see, you don't support Labour nor the Tories, so it's either LibDems (watered down version of Labour), or an "Other" O..kay then.

Unless I am breaking any forum rules I will continue to blithely start threads and make posts without worrying whether other FMS are irritated, bored or turned off. After all, I have had the misfortune to read many a virtually illiterate, rambling, offensive, abusive and quite frankly totally "point"less post from FMs who seem unable to string a sentence together. I choose to ignore the worst offenders since it is as much their right to post as it is mine, and I wouldn't presume to comment on that right.

By the way, still waiting for any valid justifications/arguments - still none forthcoming. I rest my case.

Your idea of 'valid' no doubt!

I am not particularly interested in making any justifications/arguments - particularly when addressed to someone who is very pompous in her opinions and, it seems, has no intention of having rational 'debates' with anyone! Your posts are no longer debating anything - just 'shouting' your views!

I have always been totally against the war - and have a lot of contempt for both Bush and Blair for their self-serving decision to sent our troops to Iraq - but I have absolutely no doubt that Cameron would have done exactly the same! The Tories made their support of the war very clear at the time! You just conveniently ignore that!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Your idea of 'valid' no doubt!

I am not particularly interested in making any justifications/arguments - particularly when addressed to someone who is very pompous in her opinions and, it seems, has no intention of having rational 'debates' with anyone! Your posts are no longer debating anything - just 'shouting' your views!

I have always been totally against the war - and have a lot of contempt for both Bush and Blair for their self-serving decision to sent our troops to Iraq - but I have absolutely no doubt that Cameron would have done exactly the same! The Tories made their support of the war very clear at the time! You just conveniently ignore that!

NO you choose to conveniently ignore the FACT that Blair LIED about the WMD to the other parties, withheld vital information which proved there were NO WMD, and went on to the deceive the nation in order to get agreement to pursue the illegal war and cosy up to the Americans who had their own agenda where the "liberation of Iraq" was a convenient and worthy smokescreen for the "liberation of the oilfields". Funny how this same Labour Government sits quietly by while other tyrants every bit as evil and corrupt as Saddam Hussein can commit genocide in their countries, but then of course they have nothing in the way of natural resources that anyone wants.

I don't give a hoot whether I come across as hectoring, pompous, irritating or whatever - I am not forcing you to read my threads/posts, anymore than I am forced to read anyone else's. If I find something sufficiently of interest to respond to I will, and it's just too bad if my ability to express myself in words of more than one syllable rubs some people up the wrong way. If I provoke reaction, that's the nature of debate. I have had plenty of rational debates with several FMS who actually do know what they are talking about, and have some interesting and often diametrically opposed opinions.

I find a lot of YOUR posts on different threads extremely patronising, although often veiled in fake chumminess to sweeten the implied criticism, so Pot/Kettle springs to mind. So here's a thought, if you find my threads and posts so utterly, mind numbingly tedious/pompous/ranting/repetitive/irritating/pointless etc....... (if I've missed any out fill in the blanks), why not just give them a miss? I'll survive without your erudite and unwarranted attempts at censure, and you'll have a happier day all round.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by angus58

NO you choose to conveniently ignore the FACT that Blair LIED about the WMD to the other parties, withheld vital information which proved there were NO WMD, and went on to the deceive the nation in order to get agreement to pursue the illegal war and cosy up to the Americans who had their own agenda where the "liberation of Iraq" was a convenient and worthy smokescreen for the "liberation of the oilfields". Funny how this same Labour Government sits quietly by while other tyrants every bit as evil and corrupt as Saddam Hussein can commit genocide in their countries, but then of course they have nothing in the way of natural resources that anyone wants.

I don't give a hoot whether I come across as hectoring, pompous, irritating or whatever - I am not forcing you to read my threads/posts, anymore than I am forced to read anyone else's. If I find something sufficiently of interest to respond to I will, and it's just too bad if my ability to express myself in words of more than one syllable rubs some people up the wrong way. If I provoke reaction, that's the nature of debate. I have had plenty of rational debates with several FMS who actually do know what they are talking about, and have some interesting and often diametrically opposed opinions.

I find a lot of YOUR posts on different threads extremely patronising, although often veiled in fake chumminess to sweeten the implied criticism, so Pot/Kettle springs to mind. So here's a thought, if you find my threads and posts so utterly, mind numbingly tedious/pompous/ranting/repetitive/irritating/pointless etc....... (if I've missed any out fill in the blanks), why not just give them a miss? I'll survive without your erudite and unwarranted attempts at censure, and you'll have a happier day all round.

On your first paragraph - I agree with most of what you say, except that I haven't chosen to ignore anything!

On your second - I have already stated how your posts are well written - so fail to see how you can accuse me of having a problem with your ability to express yourself! And I don't doubt your ability for rational debate - just that you have been more inclined to spend your time lately attacking any posters that have opposing opinions - than engaging in debate! And like most when I open a thread I read them all, unless they are illegible! It is hard not to! Look I don't have a problem with your posts as such - just, like others, become irritated by the constant Tory political broadcasts!

Lastly - I was not intentionally trying to censure your posts - just could not resist passing comment on the increasing volume of Tory hype coming from them! FACT! And I certainly disagree with the fake chuminess bit - just trying to be a bit tactful with my words and not wishing to offend - not necessarily a bad thing! No need to be quite so belligerent in your response!