[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

You wouldnt like to put your money where mouth is on that little piece of gen there would you and prove that one?

If we allow Catholics, Jews etc to have thier own schools whether they be state assisted or private why shouldnt Muslims be able to have theirs too, or are you saying they should be treated separately because they are simply muslims and you dont agree with the way they treat women.

Personally I wouldnt send my children to a Muslim school. But that is purely because of my distaste for Islam. But if people do want to send their children there, then why not? It is there choice for their children. Or would you prefer to deny them the choice they wish and just have little schools that you approve of?

As for the garbage about brainwashing, dont you think the parents and family will be doing that anyway in most cases?

I suggest you try reading what I actually said. Christian schools have been forced by legislation to allot a percentage of their places to children from other denominations. Muslim schools however refuse to take children from other faiths, (even supposing anyone would want to send their kids there), and there is no such legal compulsion on them. You really have a very poor grasp of Islam if you do not understand that it is not just a religion but an holistic way of life that permeates every thought, every action, every deed in a way that other religions do not. Central to Islam is the belief that women are inferior beings who are only in the world to do the bidding of men and to serve them without question. Before they are married they are the property of their male relatives, once they are married they become the property of their husband. She is never her own person. From the moment a girl is born she is indoctrinated to that belief and she faces a life of submission to men. If you do not understand why I, as a woman, find that offensive and abhorrent, that's not my problem.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

I suggest you try reading what I actually said. Christian schools have been forced by legislation to allot a percentage of their places to children from other denominations. Muslim schools however refuse to take children from other faiths, (even supposing anyone would want to send their kids there), and there is no such legal compulsion on them. You really have a very poor grasp of Islam if you do not understand that it is not just a religion but an holistic way of life that permeates every thought, every action, every deed in a way that other religions do not. Central to Islam is the belief that women are inferior beings who are only in the world to do the bidding of men and to serve them without question. Before they are married they are the property of their male relatives, once they are married they become the property of their husband. She is never her own person. From the moment a girl is born she is indoctrinated to that belief and she faces a life of submission to men. If you do not understand why I, as a woman, find that offensive and abhorrent, that's not my problem.

I would suggest you try writing what you want to say then. Muslim run state schools are under the same legislation for state funding as Christian run schools. Opting out of religious type education and prayer sessions is mandatory, complaints upheld against non complying schools could restrict or delay funding.

As for understanding Islam, yes i do understand it and the nature of life of some adherents to it. But what you are suggesting doesnt apply to all of Islam.

Your problem is you like to tar people, you dont like ALL Islam because of certain school's attitudes to women, you dont like any man to disagree with your opinion, if he does he is misogynist.

Sorry I am male, I dare to disagree with you and I am not misogynistic. I am a realist. You cant legislate peoples attitudes, nor can you decide what people should or shouldnt believe, nor the religion they follow.

[Tom4784]

The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously, You'd get a more balanced view from a BNP newsletter. If it is true then I disagree vehemently but then again that article doesn't comment on the parent's reaction, as expected. Daily Mail can't allow muslims to be portrayed a truthful light since they're all bloodthirsty extremists after our civil liberties obviously.

Chances a good percentage of the parents are as outraged at this is other people are. I expect the student Body to drop in number considerably. No one should be forced to wear the Burkha but 3 schools do not represent all muslims so it's unfair to judge them as so.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I would suggest you try writing what you want to say then. Muslim run state schools are under the same legislation for state funding as Christian run schools. Opting out of religious type education and prayer sessions is mandatory, complaints upheld against non complying schools could restrict or delay funding.

As for understanding Islam, yes i do understand it and the nature of life of some adherents to it. But what you are suggesting doesnt apply to all of Islam.

Your problem is you like to tar people, you dont like ALL Islam because of certain school's attitudes to women, you dont like any man to disagree with your opinion, if he does he is misogynist.

Sorry I am male, I dare to disagree with you and I am not misogynistic. I am a realist. You cant legislate peoples attitudes, nor can you decide what people should or shouldnt believe, nor the religion they follow.

No, I do not like ALL Islam, because central to Islamic ideology is the subservience of women, and I could never subscribe to that, nor should I as a western woman living in my own country be expected to accept and/or ignore the subservience of any woman, from any culture.

Of course you can legislate people's attitudes - why do you think we have laws covering racial and sexual discrimination, laws that legislate against homophobia, disability discrimination etc etc? I don't give a toss what people BELIEVE or what RELIGION they follow - where in any of my posts have I said anything of the sort? My point is that no-one coming to this country should be allowed to practice discriminations that are ILLEGAL and UNACCEPTABLE in our society, and Muslims are no exception.

It's not unreasonable of me to believe that men who go along with the subjugation of women are misogynistic since I would expect anyone, male or female, to condemn such blatant sex discrimination.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously, You'd get a more balanced view from a BNP newsletter. If it is true then I disagree vehemently but then again that article doesn't comment on the parent's reaction, as expected. Daily Mail can't allow muslims to be portrayed a truthful light since they're all bloodthirsty extremists after our civil liberties obviously.

Chances a good percentage of the parents are as outraged at this is other people are. I expect the student Body to drop in number considerably. No one should be forced to wear the Burkha but 3 schools do not represent all muslims so it's unfair to judge them as so.

Have you even bothered reading the whole thread - it has been reported from other news sources and let's face it if it were untrue, the muslims would be issuing their high court writs as I type, but that ain't going to happen, because it happens to be the truth.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by angus58

Have you even bothered reading the whole thread - it has been reported from other news sources and let's face it if it were untrue, the muslims would be issuing their high court writs as I type, but that ain't going to happen, because it happens to be the truth.

Did you even bother to read my post? I said if it's true then I disagree with it but you can't judge a group of people on the actions of a few. I never said it wasn't true only that chances are the Daily Mail reported it in a biased manner or that it may have exagerated events.

Read my posts before you critique them in future.

[arista]

"The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously"

This was debated on LBC and ITV1's "AT" 5PM show.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Did you even bother to read my post? I said if it's true then I disagree with it but you can't judge a group of people on the actions of a few. I never said it wasn't true only that chances are the Daily Mail reported it in a biased manner or that it may have exagerated events.

Read my posts before you critique them in future.

I will feel free to critique yours or anyone else's posts in the future if I feel like it, since that is the nature of the forum beast, and I don't require your permission to do so. Once you post expect a reaction, especially when it's a dismissive one such as yours before you had even bothered to check out the authenticity of the story.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by angus58

I will feel free to critique yours or anyone else's posts in the future if I feel like it, since that is the nature of the forum beast, and I don't require your permission to do so. Once you post expect a reaction, especially when it's a dismissive one such as yours before you had even bothered to check out the authenticity of the story.

Yes but you can't have a go at me, acusing me of not reading the articles when you yourself didn't read my post properly. That's just hypocritical. I'm being dismissive because the Daily Mail is a piss poor excuse of a newspaper and I merely wanted to hear both sides of the story, something very basic that all newspapers should adhere to. Sorry I'm not wailing like a banshee in vehement disagreement with the story because simply we do not know all the facts. Like you said in that post You're free to critique my post (Bearing in mind you actually read it first next time) so why am I not allowed to critique a source? Once again, hypocritical.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by arista

"The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously"

This was debated on LBC and ITV1's "AT" 5PM show.

lol ITV, It doesn't change the facts that we haven't heard the opinions of the parents and such, instead we're lead to believe that they might be fine and dandy with it that just fuels the media made image that Islam is a slowly creeping monster seeking to take away our liberties.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

Of course you can legislate people's attitudes - why do you think we have laws covering racial and sexual discrimination, laws that legislate against homophobia, disability discrimination etc etc? I don't give a toss what people BELIEVE or what RELIGION they follow - where in any of my posts have I said anything of the sort? My point is that no-one coming to this country should be allowed to practice discriminations that are ILLEGAL and UNACCEPTABLE in our society, and Muslims are no exception.

It's not unreasonable of me to believe that men who go along with the subjugation of women are misogynistic since I would expect anyone, male or female, to condemn such blatant sex discrimination.

Surely then you should start a little closer to home, how about forcing the Roman Catholic Church to ordain women and have them allow women to serve at all levels within it?

As for not giving a toss about what a person believes or the religion they follow, its apparent you do. Read the above paragraph. Is the RC not as guilty of sexual discrimination? So its okay for them but not Muslims to be discriminatory?

Incisentally you talk about people being discriminatory but do you have any proof of this, if a woman who wears the veil says she wants to wear it, do you automatically assume she is being forced to say that or has been brainwashed. But do you have any concrete proof that women are forced by men to wear the burka?

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Surely then you should start a little closer to home, how about forcing the Roman Catholic Church to ordain women and have them allow women to serve at all levels within it?

As for not giving a toss about what a person believes or the religion they follow, its apparent you do. Read the above paragraph. Is the RC not as guilty of sexual discrimination? So its okay for them but not Muslims to be discriminatory?

Incisentally you talk about people being discriminatory but do you have any proof of this, if a woman who wears the veil says she wants to wear it, do you automatically assume she is being forced to say that or has been brainwashed. But do you have any concrete proof that women are forced by men to wear the burka?

Why deflect attention away from the debate in hand? We are not talking about RELIGION here since the burkha is NOT a religious requirement. As regards the ordainment of women priests, since Roman Catholicism is a religion that promotes the ascendancy of males over females, one would assume it is a religion of CHOICE for those who wish to follow it, including women. Since a choice is involved, it is not reasonable to expect religious doctrine to be changed to accommodate my views, which explains why I am NOT a Roman catholic! Incidentally I am against all organised religion since it's just another form of brainwashing and indoctrination.

As I said before Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete way of life. As regards my views on women being forced to wear the burkha, I think it would be completely reasonable for anyone to suppose that a female child brought up in a muslim household where strict doctrine is enforced, IS brainwashed. Furthermore, I spent several years living in the Middle East during which I worked and socialised with muslim women almost exclusively since, as a woman, I was forbidden from doing so with males unless my husband was present.

I learnt a hell of a lot from those women, and witnessed their way of life first hand, so please don't bleat on to me about having documented "proof", when I have the evidence of my own eyes and ears, and the experience of my own enforced repression and subjugation in their culture which, because I had NOT been indoctrinated since birth, was completely demeaning and shocking to me since I was not brought up to believe men are superior to women and that we should "serve" them.

If women do not comply with strict doctrine they are severely punished, so it is NOT a matter of their having a choice in the first place.

However, it is one thing to experience that way of life in those countries, and another to find it being practised in our so called equal and inclusive society -equal and inclusive no doubt so long as you're not a muslim woman.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

lol ITV, It doesn't change the facts that we haven't heard the opinions of the parents and such, instead we're lead to believe that they might be fine and dandy with it that just fuels the media made image that Islam is a slowly creeping monster seeking to take away our liberties.

Sure I am sure we will.


Yes I can understand you Dezzy
with the 'Monster.'

But 3 Muslims Schools with Ofsted Permission
are going back in time, the wrong way.

[Ayesha]

Originally Posted by angus58

Furthermore, I spent several years living in the Middle East during which I worked and socialised with muslim women almost exclusively since, as a woman, I was forbidden from doing so with males unless my husband was present.

I learnt a hell of a lot from those women, and witnessed their way of life first hand..

I'm sorry but living in country like Saudi where the most anal government is in power, still does not make you an expert on the value of the Muslim woman in Islam. You are basing you're views on one country. And believe me, I have lived in more than one, they are ALL different!

I am a Muslim wife, mother and a teacher. And I'm telling you first hand that the female is not subservient to the any man (ask my poor hubby!!!), and I'll be damned if any muslim man has ever been able to tell me how to live my life, or worse how to practise my religion!

Islam was giving the woman land and inheritance in the late 600 AD!!! Well before the United Kingdom which indeed had to wait till 1960 onwards (and I'm being very generous with the year!!), to even consider giving women the same pay as men!!

Niqaab and the hijaab are NOT a way to oppress women! I have taken both in my time - so I know what Im talking about! The reasons are formed on the basis of modesty - much the same as Nuns cover up. And why the heck not? What with all the throwing of women as sexuality objects around - its high time that women empower themselves and WANT to be respected for themselves, their ideas, their opinions - not to be given a job because someones staring at their breasts!

Ladies on here who are declaring themselves as feminists, or womens lib, are not very focussed on what it really means.

If a school is choosing to implement something akin to the way school implement a school uniform, then thats the schools choice. The parents can choose to send their kids there or not.

By the way, Ofsted, are Standards for EDUCATION. Not for liberty of what the general misinformed public think are denial of rights.

[Ayesha]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously, You'd get a more balanced view from a BNP newsletter. If it is true then I disagree vehemently but then again that article doesn't comment on the parent's reaction, as expected. Daily Mail can't allow muslims to be portrayed a truthful light since they're all bloodthirsty extremists after our civil liberties obviously.

Agreed. Good old Daily mail. A muslims best friend.

Chances a good percentage of the parents are as outraged at this is other people are. I expect the student Body to drop in number considerably. No one should be forced to wear the Burkha but 3 schools do not represent all muslims so it's unfair to judge them as so.

Well exactly, if parents dont like it, they can put great pressure on the schools to change (the advantage of fee paying parents..) - or send their kids elsewhere.

[letmein]

It's a private institution. They can do as they like. Don't like it, don't go. We should then ban all uniforms.

And The Daily Fail, is a racist, homophobic organization, that lies and distorts things to further their own agenda. The history speaks for itself. So, don't go giving us that "lefty" crap.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Tom

I'm going to create a new religion where religious clothing includes a balaclava and a hoodie. Lets see if I'm allowed to wear that in public places

As much as this is funny...... it has it's very own truth to it. this country is now officially a joke.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I just dont think it's my place to tell a Muslim woman that they are wrong for wearing a burqa if it's done out of her own free will.

This free will point of view frankly is a load of cobblers.........Children are brainwashed from birth to do what the parents want.......Brain washed individuals when adults DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. They are damaged people....

The indoctrination of children with ANY religion should be a serious criminal offence.....Children are groomed by religious addicts........The grooming of children is a moral crime byond comprehension.....

[parmnion]

Who's saying the 11 yr olds are being forced to wear the veils? At that age you do as you're told. Sunday school was something I hated, I still had to ****ing go and listen to some freak in a frock ramble on about jesus.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by bananarama

This free will point of view frankly is a load of cobblers.........Children are brainwashed from birth to do what the parents want.......Brain washed individuals when adults DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. They are damaged people....

The indoctrination of children with ANY religion should be a serious criminal offence.....Children are groomed by religious addicts........The grooming of children is a moral crime byond comprehension.....

Exactly - how on earth can an adult that has been brainwashed into an ideology and religious belief since birth - ever have free will! They have never been allowed to form their own opinions - they have been told how to think all their life - hardly surprising they end up believing it - but it is a false belief from years of brainwashing!

[Zippy]

If burqas and veils are not a religious requirement then I see no justification for them whatsoever. Theyre clearly all about desexualising females and making them invisible. I don't think that should be acceptable in any free civilised country.

The goverment should send out a strong message that hiding females away like this is just intolerable and actually dehumanises them.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Ayesha

I'm sorry but living in country like Saudi where the most anal government is in power, still does not make you an expert on the value of the Muslim woman in Islam. You are basing you're views on one country. And believe me, I have lived in more than one, they are ALL different! etc. etc. etc...

Hello Ayesha...

I do agree with you that many women in Islam are not oppressed. Indeed, I am informed by a Muslim friend that it says in the Koran that Mohammed treated his wife as an equal. However, having said that, and taking into account your comment about the property laws brought in so early by Islam, there are certain Islamic countries who are centuries behind the rest when it comes to women's rights.

I think it's time some forward-thinking Muslims like yourself stood up and said it is wrong to lash a women, or to hang her or stone her to death for a sexual "crime" where the man gets off free. It is wrong not to allow half the population access to medical advice or to education simply because they do not have a penis. You cannot deny that all these things happen in certain Islamic countries, and for educated, thinking Muslims to deny it puts your whole cause back centuries.

[BB_Eye]

Nobody is breaking the law by making Islamic school girls wear the hijab or even the veil. Religious institutions are given exemptions (some might say special treatment) from certain laws which bans discrimination towards women and other groups

Do I agree with it? Not necessarily, but I hope in the interests of consistency, the same people asking for a ban on mandatory veil-wearing for girls in schools are also prepared to deny the Catholic and Anglican church the right to discriminate against gays and lesbians which they do routinely and legally.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Nobody is breaking the law by making Islamic school girls wear the hijab or even the veil. Religious institutions are given exemptions (some might say special treatment) from certain laws which bans discrimination towards women and other groups

Do I agree with it? Not necessarily, but I hope in the interests of consistency, the same people asking for a ban on mandatory veil-wearing for girls in schools are also prepared to deny the Catholic and Anglican church the right to discriminate against gays and lesbians which they do routinely and legally.

You are aware, I take it, that under sharia law, homosexuality attracts the death penalty?

Furthermore, I don't recall that homosexuals are required to conceal their identity by wearing face enveloping burkhas Religious freedoms should not be allowed to infringe the public's right to safety and security, which is somewhat hampered by the inability to identify a person.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

You are aware, I take it, that under sharia law, homosexuality attracts the death penalty?

Furthermore, I don't recall that homosexuals are required to conceal their identity by wearing face enveloping burkhas Religious freedoms should not be allowed to infringe the public's right to safety and security, which is somewhat hampered by the inability to identify a person.

Once again you seek to muddy the waters by throwing some slightly factually based inflammatory garbage into the debate.

Sharia Law doesnt actually prescribe a punishment for homosexuality, some countries have used the fact Mohammad said it was immoral to practice sodomy to impose the death sentence for those caught practising, however more countries that have laws based on Sharia simply use imprisonment, there are even countries that dont punish.