[Stu]

Originally Posted by marney

Originally Posted by marney View Post
What makes one highly probable, the other only possible and yet one improbable.
Sheer logic and common sense? We know that the Christian God is a belief based on nothing more than Jewish folklore and word of mouth that has somehow survived in the form of The Bible. A highly contradictory text of pure meaningless rubbish that can easily be disproven by a group of eight year olds with a white board and a few Red Bulls on a Sunday afternoon.

Extraterrestrial life forms are highly probable given what we know about the size of the greater cosmos compared to our one planet. It doesn't give one a carte blanche to then allow all other things to be possible. If you work on that hypothesis then the Christian God has an equal chance of existing as Spiderman does, based on this tired idea of 'well if you can't disprove it it could exist!'.

Science has yet to prove other life forms exist if they do who created them. Can you prove the universe was created THROUGH science, no one can.

Why don't you reply directly to what I wrote for a change?

Of course they can't prove what created the universe yet. Science has not evolved that far yet. But that's the beauty of science. It evolves. It gets bigger and better every day. Unlike religion which shrinks further and further into embarrassment, mediocrity and improbability. Your first mistake is assuming the universe was created. Beyond that ... if God created the universe what created God? And if he could exist of his own free will free of the constraints of creation then why can't a scientific explanation? Where do you draw the line from where science stops and becomes a 'god'?

This especially holds true if you believe in deism which I think is totally necessary. Believing in a God theory is all fine and well, but believing in an active, omnipresent God who interferes in our lives is just absoloutely absurd considering you must inevitably reach the conclusion that God is a bit of a bastard. So - if like a deist - you believe in an inactive, immaterial God that is merely a 'force' ... at what point did it stop becoming science and start becoming 'God'? Can it not be an as of yet unfounded 'science' to the universe?

Pray to God you find the quote button next time.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by marney

Yeh like the ones walking around in human form that is what the debate is about. if you believe in that then everything is possible

Actually, that is not what the debate is about. The debate is about alien life forms existing - elsewhere outwith this planet that we live on. The only person banging on about them being in human form - is you.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by marney

What makes one highly probable, the other only possible and yet one improbable.

Ever heard of the Drake Equation?

N = RfpneflfifcL


In this equation, N is the number of detectable civilizations in our galaxy. The other variables are described below:

R is the rate of star formation in the galaxy
fp is the fraction of stars that form planets
ne is the number of planets hospitable to life (i.e., Earth-like planets)
fl is the fraction of these planets on which life actually emerges
fi is the fraction of these planets on which intelligent life arises
fc is the fraction of these planets with intelligent beings capable of interstellar communication
L is the length of time such a civilization remains detectable

The only variable known with any degree of certainty is the rate of stellar formation, R. In the Milky Way, a typical spiral galaxy, new stars form at a rate of roughly four per year [source: Cain]. The variable astronomers feel most uncertain about is L, the length of time a civilization remains detectable. A variety of estimates have been used for L, ranging from 10 years to 10 million years.

Astronomers can make educated guesses about the rest of the variables. For example, of the nine planets in our solar system, only four are what astronomers call terrestrial planets -- those that have a solid surface. Of those terrestrial planets, only Earth supports life. If we take our solar system as representative, then we might argue that ne equals 1/4 or 0.25. Similar guesses have been made about the other variables and, interestingly, they all end up having very similar values, usually in a range between 0.1 and 1.0. So, a typical calculation might look like this:

N = 4 x 0.5 x 0.25 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 3,000,000

which gives us a value of 12,000 civilizations in our galaxy.

Drake's original calculations were very close to this value for N. When he ran the numbers, he predicted that there might be 10,000 detectable civilizations in the Milky Way [source: Garber]. Carl Sagan, a leader in the SETI movement until he passed away in 1996, was even more generous when he suggested that 1 million civilizations might exist in the galaxy [source: Lemarchand]. That's a lot of ETs!

But thats only in the Milky Way, our galaxy, there are billions of other galaxies out there.

Obviously some civilisation or life forms will be more advanced and others less advanced, that reduces the probability down from highly.

There are lots of religions on Earth, there have been a lot more, most talk of an all knowing all powerful merciful God who favours his believers. Thats a joke. Why would God even bother with us, we are insignificant.

A lot of religious beliefs have been shown to have been invented, adapted and changed by man, take for example Christianity, until the Pauline Conversion old JC wasnt really looked upon as being son of god. Followers of him still followed the Jewish faith. People who started following him converted to the Jewish Faith.

It wasnt until Paul was accepted in the Nazareans and pushed out a belief in the divinity of Jesus that there was schism in the "early church" and a belief established that JC was the son of god.

[Stu]

I always get hard for Shasown's inevitable 'fuck you, I bet you didn't know about this!' long, intelligent post .

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Ever heard of the Drake Equation?

N = RfpneflfifcL


In this equation, N is the number of detectable civilizations in our galaxy. The other variables are described below:

R is the rate of star formation in the galaxy
fp is the fraction of stars that form planets
ne is the number of planets hospitable to life (i.e., Earth-like planets)
fl is the fraction of these planets on which life actually emerges
fi is the fraction of these planets on which intelligent life arises
fc is the fraction of these planets with intelligent beings capable of interstellar communication
L is the length of time such a civilization remains detectable

The only variable known with any degree of certainty is the rate of stellar formation, R. In the Milky Way, a typical spiral galaxy, new stars form at a rate of roughly four per year [source: Cain]. The variable astronomers feel most uncertain about is L, the length of time a civilization remains detectable. A variety of estimates have been used for L, ranging from 10 years to 10 million years.

Astronomers can make educated guesses about the rest of the variables. For example, of the nine planets in our solar system, only four are what astronomers call terrestrial planets -- those that have a solid surface. Of those terrestrial planets, only Earth supports life. If we take our solar system as representative, then we might argue that ne equals 1/4 or 0.25. Similar guesses have been made about the other variables and, interestingly, they all end up having very similar values, usually in a range between 0.1 and 1.0. So, a typical calculation might look like this:

N = 4 x 0.5 x 0.25 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 3,000,000

which gives us a value of 12,000 civilizations in our galaxy.

Drake's original calculations were very close to this value for N. When he ran the numbers, he predicted that there might be 10,000 detectable civilizations in the Milky Way [source: Garber]. Carl Sagan, a leader in the SETI movement until he passed away in 1996, was even more generous when he suggested that 1 million civilizations might exist in the galaxy [source: Lemarchand]. That's a lot of ETs!

But thats only in the Milky Way, our galaxy, there are billions of other galaxies out there.

Obviously some civilisation or life forms will be more advanced and others less advanced, that reduces the probability down from highly.

There are lots of religions on Earth, there have been a lot more, most talk of an all knowing all powerful merciful God who favours his believers. Thats a joke. Why would God even bother with us, we are insignificant.

A lot of religious beliefs have been shown to have been invented, adapted and changed by man, take for example Christianity, until the Pauline Conversion old JC wasnt really looked upon as being son of god. Followers of him still followed the Jewish faith. People who started following him converted to the Jewish Faith.

It wasnt until Paul was accepted in the Nazareans and pushed out a belief in the divinity of Jesus that there was schism in the "early church" and a belief established that JC was the son of god.

Now....that's what I call an informative post! Interesting stuff - learn something new every day.

[joeysteele]

I don't believe we are the only planet in the Universe/s which will have life on it, what forms other life may be is obviously unknown but then we have many forms of life on this planet.

We in our lifetimes are extremely unlikely to ever learn if or where other life forms may be but its a fascinating subject to dwell on.

[marney]

Of course they can't prove what created the universe yet. Science has not evolved that far yet. But that's the beauty of science. It evolves. It gets bigger and better every day. Unlike religion which shrinks further and further into embarrassment, mediocrity and improbability.
How can you be sure it will evolve forever where is your proof.
Yet Satanism becomes more and more popular each day, so do we call that religion. quote button just for you.

[Stu]

I wish he would just show his damn face. Instead he toys with me in the shadows knowing full well my massive, herculean ability to outsmart him.

I also see you have discovered the joys of the double italicizing trick, Simon. It's the future of bypassing swear filters!

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

[keithafc]

I know i will probably get some harsh posts my way for this but i honestly think there is more chance of a different realm (spirit world as people call it) existing than god.

Do i believe in intelligent aliens? Yes i do.

[SocietyIsRuined]

With the amount of galaxies out there then there is something than us that exists. I doubt that they will look different than us.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by keithafc

I know i will probably get some harsh posts my way for this but i honestly think there is more chance of a different realm (spirit world as people call it) existing than god.

Do i believe in intelligent aliens? Yes i do.

I'm with that too..... it just seems such a complete waste of all that is learned, all that knowledge gained over all the years, to be lost.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by SocietyIsRuined

With the amount of galaxies out there then there is something than us that exists. I doubt that they will look different than us.

well they could be billions of years ahead of us or behind us so its extremely unlikely they would look like us!

Plus they could have a totally different atmosphere and climate which would dictate how they look.

[SocietyIsRuined]

Originally Posted by Zippy

well they could be billions of years ahead of us or behind us so its extremely unlikely they would look like us!

Plus they could have a totally different atmosphere and climate which would dictate how they look.

That's true.

The thing is that if we ever discover anything out there then religion goes right up in the air. All these planets would never have their own Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha or Shiva.

I am of the belief that it would cause more war than anything else on this planet and that's why they keep it quiet.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Zippy

well they could be billions of years ahead of us or behind us so its extremely unlikely they would look like us!

Plus they could have a totally different atmosphere and climate which would dictate how they look.

They laugh at us.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Zippy

well they could be billions of years ahead of us or behind us so its extremely unlikely they would look like us!

Plus they could have a totally different atmosphere and climate which would dictate how they look.

True, I totally agree with you on that.

[InOne]

Who knows? We won't.


End.

[James]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Ever heard of the Drake Equation?

N = RfpneflfifcL


In this equation, N is the number of detectable civilizations in our galaxy. The other variables are described below:

R is the rate of star formation in the galaxy
fp is the fraction of stars that form planets
ne is the number of planets hospitable to life (i.e., Earth-like planets)
fl is the fraction of these planets on which life actually emerges
fi is the fraction of these planets on which intelligent life arises
fc is the fraction of these planets with intelligent beings capable of interstellar communication
L is the length of time such a civilization remains detectable

The only variable known with any degree of certainty is the rate of stellar formation, R. In the Milky Way, a typical spiral galaxy, new stars form at a rate of roughly four per year [source: Cain]. The variable astronomers feel most uncertain about is L, the length of time a civilization remains detectable. A variety of estimates have been used for L, ranging from 10 years to 10 million years.

Astronomers can make educated guesses about the rest of the variables. For example, of the nine planets in our solar system, only four are what astronomers call terrestrial planets -- those that have a solid surface. Of those terrestrial planets, only Earth supports life. If we take our solar system as representative, then we might argue that ne equals 1/4 or 0.25. Similar guesses have been made about the other variables and, interestingly, they all end up having very similar values, usually in a range between 0.1 and 1.0. So, a typical calculation might look like this:

N = 4 x 0.5 x 0.25 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 3,000,000

which gives us a value of 12,000 civilizations in our galaxy.

Drake's original calculations were very close to this value for N. When he ran the numbers, he predicted that there might be 10,000 detectable civilizations in the Milky Way [source: Garber]. Carl Sagan, a leader in the SETI movement until he passed away in 1996, was even more generous when he suggested that 1 million civilizations might exist in the galaxy [source: Lemarchand]. That's a lot of ETs!

But thats only in the Milky Way, our galaxy, there are billions of other galaxies out there.

Obviously some civilisation or life forms will be more advanced and others less advanced, that reduces the probability down from highly.

There are lots of religions on Earth, there have been a lot more, most talk of an all knowing all powerful merciful God who favours his believers. Thats a joke. Why would God even bother with us, we are insignificant.

A lot of religious beliefs have been shown to have been invented, adapted and changed by man, take for example Christianity, until the Pauline Conversion old JC wasnt really looked upon as being son of god. Followers of him still followed the Jewish faith. People who started following him converted to the Jewish Faith.

It wasnt until Paul was accepted in the Nazareans and pushed out a belief in the divinity of Jesus that there was schism in the "early church" and a belief established that JC was the son of god.

fl, fi, fc and L are guess-timates at best. fl and fc could be much less probable than 0.2 (1 in 5), which reduces the number of potential civilisations in the galaxy considerably.

[Twilight]

Maybe.

[Barbie]

This cant be the only planet in the whole universe to have life. Do they necessarily need what we need to survive though? Things live at the bottom of the ocean in what should be deadly conditions.

though i don't believe we have had aliens visit our planet.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Ever heard of the Drake Equation?

N = RfpneflfifcL


In this equation, N is the number of detectable civilizations in our galaxy. The other variables are described below:

R is the rate of star formation in the galaxy
fp is the fraction of stars that form planets
ne is the number of planets hospitable to life (i.e., Earth-like planets)
fl is the fraction of these planets on which life actually emerges
fi is the fraction of these planets on which intelligent life arises
fc is the fraction of these planets with intelligent beings capable of interstellar communication
L is the length of time such a civilization remains detectable

The only variable known with any degree of certainty is the rate of stellar formation, R. In the Milky Way, a typical spiral galaxy, new stars form at a rate of roughly four per year [source: Cain]. The variable astronomers feel most uncertain about is L, the length of time a civilization remains detectable. A variety of estimates have been used for L, ranging from 10 years to 10 million years.

Astronomers can make educated guesses about the rest of the variables. For example, of the nine planets in our solar system, only four are what astronomers call terrestrial planets -- those that have a solid surface. Of those terrestrial planets, only Earth supports life. If we take our solar system as representative, then we might argue that ne equals 1/4 or 0.25. Similar guesses have been made about the other variables and, interestingly, they all end up having very similar values, usually in a range between 0.1 and 1.0. So, a typical calculation might look like this:

N = 4 x 0.5 x 0.25 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 0.2 x 3,000,000

which gives us a value of 12,000 civilizations in our galaxy.

Drake's original calculations were very close to this value for N. When he ran the numbers, he predicted that there might be 10,000 detectable civilizations in the Milky Way [source: Garber]. Carl Sagan, a leader in the SETI movement until he passed away in 1996, was even more generous when he suggested that 1 million civilizations might exist in the galaxy [source: Lemarchand]. That's a lot of ETs!

But thats only in the Milky Way, our galaxy, there are billions of other galaxies out there.

Obviously some civilisation or life forms will be more advanced and others less advanced, that reduces the probability down from highly.

There are lots of religions on Earth, there have been a lot more, most talk of an all knowing all powerful merciful God who favours his believers. Thats a joke. Why would God even bother with us, we are insignificant.

A lot of religious beliefs have been shown to have been invented, adapted and changed by man, take for example Christianity, until the Pauline Conversion old JC wasnt really looked upon as being son of god. Followers of him still followed the Jewish faith. People who started following him converted to the Jewish Faith.

It wasnt until Paul was accepted in the Nazareans and pushed out a belief in the divinity of Jesus that there was schism in the "early church" and a belief established that JC was the son of god.

Would you believe the coincedence..... I watched a program last night on BB4 OD - all about this very subject!

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by James

fl, fi, fc and L are guess-timates at best. fl and fc could be much less probable than 0.2 (1 in 5), which reduces the number of potential civilisations in the galaxy considerably.

Very true, but it could also be slightly more which would increase potential civilisations considerably. And it only takes into account, this galaxy, not the rest of the universe.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Would you believe the coincedence..... I watched a program last night on BB4 OD - all about this very subject!

Journey to the Edge of the Universe? Quite an interesting program, if that wasnt the one you watched try and watch it sometime. Graphics are quite good generally and very informative sort of puts us in our place.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Very true, but it could also be slightly more which would increase potential civilisations considerably. And it only takes into account, this galaxy, not the rest of the universe.



Journey to the Edge of the Universe? Quite an interesting program, if that wasnt the one you watched try and watch it sometime. Graphics are quite good generally and very informative sort of puts us in out place.

No, it was called The Search for Life - however....now you've mentioned 'Joureny to the Edge of the Universe'..... I am sure that''s still showing On Demand - it rings too many very recent bells !. I think I'll have a wee check and whittle away a quite Sunday afternoon (soon as the groceries are delivered and my Sunday Roast is on the go!).