[michael21]

Nurseries and childminders in England are to be allowed to look after more children, in a package ministers say will improve quality and cut costs.

The ratio of children to carers can be raised, but only if carers' qualifications meet new standards.

Children's Minister Liz Truss said the proposals would make more childcare places available and reduce costs for parents in the "long term".

Critics warn the change in ratios could actually compromise quality of care.

They also predict the changes - which are due to come into force in the autumn - will be unpopular with parents and are unlikely to reduce the overall costs of childcare.
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England's nursery ratios

CURRENT
Under one and one-year-olds - 1:3
Two-year-olds - 1:4
Three-year-olds and above - 1:8 or 1:13 (teacher-led)
PROPOSED
Under one and one-year-olds 1:4
Two-year-olds - 1:6
Three-year-olds and above - 1:8 or 1:13 (teacher-led)

Statutory ratios for carers per child vary depending on age and setting. Ratios for two-year-olds are set to rise from four children per adult to six children per adult, and for ones-and-under to rise from three children per adult to four children per adult.

Ratios for three-year-olds and over would remain at eight or 13 children per adult, depending on whether a qualified graduate was present.

Ms Truss says the changes will bring the UK in line with countries such as France and Sweden. England's higher ratios lead to higher costs for parents and lower pay for staff, she says.

Ms Truss told the BBC the proposals were about raising standards and only those nurseries that hired staff with higher qualifications would be able to take on more children.

"It will make it higher quality, more available and more affordable. It will take time to recruit new people and expand nurseries. In the long term it will be more affordable," she said.

Liz Truss: "We're raising the standards so that parents will be able to get more available nursery places."

Britain has some of the highest childcare costs in the world, with many mothers with two or more children saying it does not make financial sense to work.

An earlier report by Ms Truss suggested the average family spends 27% of their income on childcare.

Ms Truss said childcare professionals should be better qualified in the UK.
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“Start Quote

Research also overwhelmingly indicates that introducing young children to quasi-formal academic learning too young has lifelong negative consequences”

Richard House Early Childhood Action Campaign founder

Viewpoints: Childcare changes

"When parents hand their child over to the care of a childminder or nursery, they are not just entrusting them with their child's physical safety, they are also entrusting their child's brain," she said

"With this in mind, it is no longer acceptable that childcare professionals are not required to have a GCSE grade C or above in English and maths."

This will apply to new nursery staff only, however.

'Very difficult'

Shadow education secretary Stephen Twigg said the plans to increase the ratios would undermine the quality of childcare in the UK.

Stephen Twigg: "Saying that more children will be in each setting risks undermining quality and even risks undermining safety."

"I think this is one area where we've actually got something to teach other countries.

"If you look at France, there's actually quite a big public debate about whether they've got this right. I don't think you can compare the situation with Sweden where they have very, very generous parental leave so very few young babies are in these sorts of settings."

Kent-based nursery manager Josie Lait is sceptical about the plans, saying fewer adults would jeopardise the quality of care and the safety of children.

"I feel it isn't realistic to change the ratios because the quality will go down dramatically.

"And if you have people who are better qualified, costs will go up, so how will parents benefit?

"I wouldn't want to enforce it [new ratios] myself, I wouldn't want my setting to change."

Anand Shukla, from national childcare charity Daycare Trust, said: "No matter how well qualified the members of staff, there are practical considerations when you increase the number of children that they have to look after," he said.

"For one person to look after six two-year-olds, for one person to talk to six two-year-olds, to help their language development, we think is going to be very difficult."

National Day Nurseries Association chief executive Purnima Tanuku welcomed the commitment made by the government to improve childcare but said the "quality of childcare and early education must not be sacrificed".

She said: "Many parents do not want an increase in the number of children nursery staff are allowed look after. They are worried it will have a negative impact on the individual attention and care their child receives."

Anne Longfield, chief executive of children's charity and nursery provider 4Children, said: "The welfare of the child must be our first concern throughout, but with highly qualified early-years teachers and a better inspection regime, there is an opportunity to review current arrangements and provide simpler information for parents and better incentives for providers to concentrate on what matters - children."

In Wales, the maximum number of children a child minder can care is six children under eight years of age. Of those six children, no more than three may be under five years of and of those three children, normally no more than two may be under 18 months of age.

In Welsh nurseries, there should be one adult to three children under two years, one adult to four children aged two years and one adult to eight children aged three to seven years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21232270


i think Ninastar should get paid more when this new rule come in

[Ninastar]

It's an absolute joke. I actually knew what this would be about when I saw the thread

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

It's an absolute joke. I actually knew what this would be about when I saw the thread

yea i felt and still feel, sorry for you when i saw this i don't think it good for the staff and the kids tbh

[Jack_]

'Ratios for two-year-olds are set to rise from four children per adult to six children per adult'

Who the hell can look after four two year olds let alone six?

[Ninastar]

It's disgusting. They need as much attention, no matter how qualified you are, you still won't be able to pay attention to them all. I can't imagine parents being happy about this... It may be cheaper but there's no way in hell the kids will be cared for properly. My nursery had an outstanding from ofstead... And if we struggle with this then god knows what the rest of the country will be like

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Jack_

'Ratios for two-year-olds are set to rise from four children per adult to six children per adult'

Who the hell can look after four two year olds let alone six?

i agree its completely mad

[Ninastar]

Today we had 10 staff with 40 2 year olds... If this actually gets the go ahead, then technically we could have another 20 kids in our section.

I spoke to my manager about it though and she says she thinks there's no way It will happen and if it does it won't be for a long time

[Benjamin]

Altered this and moved to Serious debates.

[Ninastar]

thank you Ben.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Ben

Altered this and moved to Serious debates.

nice work what are your view on this subject

[Kizzy]

My guess this is to do with the governments plans to reduce the cut off for income support further, and the provision of free nursery places for kids aged 2+ 15hrs a week.
If they are paying these people they want to be able to pack as many kids in as they can to reduce costs.

[AnnieK]

It's all very well on paper until a child gets hurt and then the blame will be shifted to too many children and not enough staff. It makes life very difficult for nurseries. Not so much childminders but nurseries will feel pressurised to accept the maximum number of children.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

Today we had 10 staff with 40 2 year olds... If this actually gets the go ahead, then technically we could have another 20 kids in our section.

I spoke to my manager about it though and she says she thinks there's no way It will happen and if it does it won't be for a long time

Have you tried tying them all together?

I actually opened this thread to get your thoughts on this topic as you are involved in childcare. I'm guessing not much consulting has been done with the people who are going to bear the brunt of this. I don't have much to do with kids... and unfortunately I'm guessing the people who made this decision don't either.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Livia

Have you tried tying them all together?

I actually opened this thread to get your thoughts on this topic as you are involved in childcare. I'm guessing not much consulting has been done with the people who are going to bear the brunt of this. I don't have much to do with kids... and unfortunately I'm guessing the people who made this decision don't either.

Lmao, I may or may not have done

And lol nope, of course not. I bet these people have never worked with kids in their life.

I can understand why they think it's better to have more qualified staff looking after more children... but I still think no matter how qualified you are, you can't control the childrens lives... If there's 2 staff with 12 kids and one has an accident, one member of staff will be left for 10 minutes or so with 11 two year olds... In those ten minutes... god knows what can happen. Kids constantly hurt themselves, they hurt eachother, there could be another accident in which they'd have to wait in dirty pants...

It's just a horrible idea all round.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Ninastar

thank you Ben.

thread been hacked


any news on when theses plans will go ahead will it be the start of the new school year in September 2013

[Ninastar]

We pretty much had this ratio at work today. Was bloody horrible

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22782690

Plans to allow nurseries and childminders in England to look after more children are being dropped, Nick Clegg has said.

The deputy prime minister telephoned leaders in the childcare sector this morning and told them the plans were "dead in the water".

The government had previously said the changes would increase childcare places and quality and cut costs.

But critics said care quality would suffer.

The changes, which were due to come in this autumn, would have allowed an increase in the ratio of children to carers, as long as carers' qualifications met new standards.

A statement from Nick Clegg's office says: "After lengthy discussions both inside of government and outside with stakeholders, the deputy prime minister has today confirmed that the changes to ratios for pre-school children that were consulted on earlier in the year will not go ahead."

Mr Clegg is quoted as saying: "When you are talking about something this important to parents, I think it is imperative to be led by the evidence - which is overwhelmingly against changing the rules on ratios.

"The proposals to increase ratios were put out to consultation and were roundly criticised by parents, providers and experts alike. Most importantly, there is no real evidence that increasing ratios will reduce the cost of childcare for families.

"The argument that this will help families with their weekly childcare bill simply does not stack up.

"I cannot ask parents to accept such a controversial change with no real guarantee it will save them money - in fact it could cost them more."

"I have concluded that, because it will not reduce costs for parents or increase the quality of childcare, the proposed ratio changes for pre-school children cannot proceed."

Another coalition Big Idea abandoned .....

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Have you tried tying them all together?

[Vicky.]

What a ****ing joke.