[lostalex]

One of two men accused of an al-Qaeda-directed plot to derail a Via Rail passenger train appeared to question the authority of a Toronto court on Wednesday, saying that the Criminal Code should not apply to him because it's "not a holy book."

Chiheb Esseghaier, 30, of Montreal, asked to address the court and was warned to be careful with what he said because it could be used in future appearances.

"All of those conclusions was taken out based on Criminal Code and all of us we know that this Criminal Code is not a holy book," Esseghaier said. "It's just written by a set of creations and the creations they're not perfect because only the Creator is perfect.

"We cannot rely on the conclusions taken out from these judgments."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...rror-plot.html


This is what we are dealing with. The "holy books" are the only real law. According to these fanatics.

How do you fight against people who think their Religion is above the law? There's no talking sense to them. Whether we're talking about gay rights or terrorism it's always the same. People use their imaginary Gods to justify their hate. And there's no rational debate you can have with these type of people.

[InOne]

That's why I stopped getting into Religious debates. You can't argue with faith. If someone has it then they don't budge.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by InOne

That's why I stopped getting into Religious debates. You can't argue with faith. If someone has it then they don't budge.

I agree, they should be prescribed medication like you would give to someone suffering from schitzophrenia or paranoia, same difference, believing in imaginary people living in the clouds telling them its right to torture,maim and kill innocent normal people who do not share the same delusional state as them.....!!!!!!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I agree, they should be prescribed medication like you would give to someone suffering from schitzophrenia or paranoia, same difference, believing in imaginary people living in the clouds telling them its right to torture,maim and kill innocent normal people who do not share the same delusional state as them.....!!!!!!

A little offended by that. How about the people of faith who don't kill, torture and main people? Should they be prescribed medication too? Or was that just a wild generalisation? Not everyone who believes in God is a fanatic, and not all fanatics are religious.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Livia

A little offended by that. How about the people of faith who don't kill, torture and main people? Should they be prescribed medication too? Or was that just a wild generalisation? Not everyone who believes in God is a fanatic, and not all fanatics are religious.

One.........is too many !!!!!

[Nedusa]

I'd like to think that 500 years from now people will look back and learn about how the human race suffered for generations with the consequences of organised religions.From the shocking era's of religious wars,Crusades,persecutions,Witch hunts, through to the age of religious fundamentalism which resulted in more terrorist atrocities than I could even name. And all of this against a backdrop of organised religious control and servitude for millions of people. Each successive generation indoctrinated by the previous one as young children schooled in how to think and what to think (our god is better than their God).

I'd love to think in 500 years time Mankind will have moved on from this nonsense and people are free to live under a more sensible realistic moral compass where they treat people as individuals not members of one brainwashed tribe or the other and that the pain,anger,hurt,humiliation endured by countless generations is remembered only to remind people that they have moved on and organised religion is where it should be ....firmly in the past !!!!

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I'd like to think that 500 years from now people will look back and learn about how the human race suffered for generations with the consequences of organised religions.From the shocking era's of religious wars,Crusades,persecutions,Witch hunts, through to the age of religious fundamentalism which resulted in more terrorist atrocities than I could even name. And all of this against a backdrop of organised religious control and servitude for millions of people. Each successive generation indoctrinated by the previous one as young children schooled in how to think and what to think (our god is better than their God).

I'd love to think in 500 years time Mankind will have moved on from this nonsense and people are free to live under a more sensible realistic moral compass where they treat people as individuals not members of one brainwashed tribe or the other and that the pain,anger,hurt,humiliation endured by countless generations is remembered only to remind people that they have moved on and organised religion is where it should be ....firmly in the past !!!!

And if there was no more religion you honestly think something else wouldnt come along to replace it?

There will always be something there to control the masses.

I don't have a problem with religious people, some need or want faith in thier lives and others don't, neither should be condemned for it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

One.........is too many !!!!!

As far as I know, Hitler didn't create the Third Reich off the back of religion, religious people don't have the monopoly on madness. What I'd love to see is people living peacefully and accepting the beliefs of others, and accepting their right to believe, whether that belief is in God's existance, or not.

My religion has survived 5000 years, I'm sure another 500 won't make any difference.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by InOne

That's why I stopped getting into Religious debates. You can't argue with faith. If someone has it then they don't budge.

Yes.....you are 100% correct as the posts on this thread clearly demonstrate...!!!!!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Yes.....you are 100% correct as the posts on this thread clearly demonstrate...!!!!!

That's not fair. You made a rather insulting post about religious people, a massive sweeping statement, and now you're saying you think no one should answer you?

[Josy]

I'm not religous at all btw I forgot to mention that in my post in here.

Faith in general is a terrible thing, there is nothing positive that can be said about believing in things for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

However, that said, religion that has no desire to affect the real world is harmless. The problem arises when religion tries to interject itself into political debate, which due to the nature of it's beliefs, it often does.

There is no solution. Faith will never disappear and loonies with or without faith will still be loonies. It is a major problem that people who believe they are killing for god, do it with a little more fervor.

[Z]

I think people who believe their religion transcends all laws and wrong doing are beyond help. That said, I don't agree with the anti-religion views in this thread. The extreme views of a minority do not represent the religion as a whole. It'd be like if one of your siblings did something outrageously evil and you were treated as if you had personally done it, when in fact your sibling's actions had nothing to do with you, it's not your fault you are linked to one another purely by upbringing.

I was not brought up with any religion. My parents aren't religious and I am grateful that my life has developed without any religious influence. I think I've turned out alright. I don't tend to bring up my lack of religion unless I'm specifically asked about it because I think religious debates are, as people have said, very narrow minded and if someone believes strongly in their religion, their views won't take other religions (or lack of) into account. Capitalism can be absolutely awful, it leaves people in abject poverty, it takes advantage of the less fortunate and people can be left bankrupt by the system; but it also benefits a lot of people and allows them to maintain a decent standard of living. I think religion is comparable in that respect. The negative aspects of religion can be awful, but it also helps a lot of people get through the day, week, month, year...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Zee

I think people who believe their religion transcends all laws and wrong doing are beyond help. That said, I don't agree with the anti-religion views in this thread. The extreme views of a minority do not represent the religion as a whole. It'd be like if one of your siblings did something outrageously evil and you were treated as if you had personally done it, when in fact your sibling's actions had nothing to do with you, it's not your fault you are linked to one another purely by upbringing.

I was not brought up with any religion. My parents aren't religious and I am grateful that my life has developed without any religious influence. I think I've turned out alright. I don't tend to bring up my lack of religion unless I'm specifically asked about it because I think religious debates are, as people have said, very narrow minded and if someone believes strongly in their religion, their views won't take other religions (or lack of) into account. Capitalism can be absolutely awful, it leaves people in abject poverty, it takes advantage of the less fortunate and people can be left bankrupt by the system; but it also benefits a lot of people and allows them to maintain a decent standard of living. I think religion is comparable in that respect. The negative aspects of religion can be awful, but it also helps a lot of people get through the day, week, month, year...

Great post Zee, but I have to take issue with the highlighted bit. I uphold everyone's right to believe in God, whichever religion they belong to. I won't try to convert them to mine and hope they will extend me the same courtesy. Likewise, if someone doesn't believe in God, that's their call and I uphold their right to believe that. What I object to is the relentless, vitriolic criticism of agnostics and atheists who say the most outrageously insulting things about religous people and feel they should get away with it because their opinion and belief is right, and no one else's should be taken into account. Putting aside the fanatics, I find it is mostly people with no religion who will not put aside their beliefs and see the other side.

[Z]

Ah, I didn't phrase that in the best way, perhaps this would read better:

"if someone believes over-zealously in their religion (or lack of), their views won't take other religions (or lack of) into account."

As I completely agree with you Livia. I think people who are so determined their view is the correct one to hold, are often the ones causing the problem.

I'm not really sure what aspects of religions atheists need to take in to account for anything. All atheism is, is a lack of belief in a god or deity. The burden of proof rests with anyone positing that god exists to begin with.

I don't have any difficulty in having respect for religious people, but I don't have to give their beliefs any respect.

[Vanessa]

Religion is very personal. We all have our own beliefs. For example i'm a christian, but i don't consider myself a catholic. I have respect for all religions, except extremist ones. I don't agree with hurting those who have different faiths.

[InOne]

With my faith comment I didn't mean it in a totally bad way. It's just a fact, if someone believes then most debating won't change their mind. I've had good debates on faith and Religion but that's normally with people face to face.

On the internet it always turns a bit sour LOL

Originally Posted by Vanessa

Religion is very personal. We all have our own beliefs. For example i'm a christian, but i don't consider myself a catholic. I have respect for all religions, except extremist ones. I don't agree with hurting those who have different faiths.

If religion is personal, then it should remain so, and should have nothing to say about abortion, sexuality, shell fish, pigs or a multitude of other things.

If all religion was personal no one would have a problem with that.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

If religion is personal, then it should remain so, and should have nothing to say about abortion, sexuality, shell fish, pigs or a multitude of other things.

If all religion was personal no one would have a problem with that.

I mean we all have our own beliefs. But discussion is good,even though we may not agree about everything.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Josy

And if there was no more religion you honestly think something else wouldnt come along to replace it?

There will always be something there to control the masses.

I don't have a problem with religious people, some need or want faith in thier lives and others don't, neither should be condemned for it.

Yes it would be AsdaWalmartism
or something like that.


There is No God
so the sooner they understand the truth
the better

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes it would be AsdaWalmartism
or something like that.


There is No God
so the sooner they understand the truth
the better

Some people think there is a god, others don't. But nobody knows for sure. I believe there is.

[Nedusa]

But Religion never stays as a personal belief, if it would I for one would champion it for as I said earlier my only gripe is with organised religions where people are eventually forced or coerced into following "rules". Once the control mechanisms start then its only a matter of time before the rules become obtrusive,overbearing , controlling and then it's not too much of a further step before the rules change and people are now paying money to organised religious institutions.

The next thing you know their lives are now being controlled by these religious leaders they are told what to do when to do it, when to eat when not to eat. They are told what to eat and what not to eat. Sadly for admittedly a minority of people they interpret their religion or are encouraged to interpret their religion as a licence to attack , maim, torture and kill people that do not agree with them. To carry out the most barbaric acts of violence and have no guilt whatsoever .

This is where organised religion can lead to and in my opinion all forms of religious control are harmful. Personal religious beliefs are the business of the individual and can offer comfort and guidance to everyone who seeks to live a happy peaceful and positive life.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

But Religion never stays as a personal belief, if it would I for one would champion it for as I said earlier my only gripe is with organised religions where people are eventually forced or coerced into following "rules". Once the control mechanisms start then its only a matter of time before the rules become obtrusive,overbearing , controlling and then it's not too much of a further step before the rules change and people are now paying money to organised religious institutions.

The next thing you know their lives are now being controlled by these religious leaders they are told what to do when to do it, when to eat when not to eat. They are told what to eat and what not to eat. Sadly for admittedly a minority of people they interpret their religion or are encouraged to interpret their religion as a licence to attack , maim, torture and kill people that do not agree with them. To carry out the most barbaric acts of violence and have no guilt whatsoever .

This is where organised religion can lead to and in my opinion all forms of religious control are harmful. Personal religious beliefs are the business of the individual and can offer comfort and guidance to everyone who seeks to live a happy peaceful and positive life.

Religion IS a very personal thing to many people. Yet you're still trying to lump in people all together, and that's what people with no belief try to do always. You look on people with faith like they're missing something in the big picture that only you can see and you go to great pains to press home your point.

I consider myself to be an intelligent person. I do not feel coerced, nor have I, nor will I ever try to press my religion on other people. My religion doesn't recruit. I am told what not to eat and in the main I follow it but admit I am not a slave to it. I am very amused by your assumption that I am eventually going to become some kind of automaton, blindly following a set of rules I don't understand.

You don't have to be religious to be a monster... that's been covered many times in this thread but it's worth repeating because you still seem to labour under the misapprehension that religion and violence is intrinsically linked.

You yourself seem quite bitter about people who are religious. I have no thoughts on your atheism (or whatever you want to call it)... if that's what you believe, knock yourself out. I don't know why you would feel justified in being so hyper-critical of people who do have faith.

I want to lead a happy and positive life, and I feel I am doing just that. I don't need the permission of someone who believes in nothing to validate me, nor do I accept their criticism.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Livia

Religion IS a very personal thing to many people. Yet you're still trying to lump in people all together, and that's what people with no belief try to do always. You look on people with faith like they're missing something in the big picture that only you can see and you go to great pains to press home your point.

I consider myself to be an intelligent person. I do not feel coerced, nor have I, nor will I ever try to press my religion on other people. My religion doesn't recruit. I am told what not to eat and in the main I follow it but admit I am not a slave to it. I am very amused by your assumption that I am eventually going to become some kind of automaton, blindly following a set of rules I don't understand.

You don't have to be religious to be a monster... that's been covered many times in this thread but it's worth repeating because you still seem to labour under the misapprehension that religion and violence is intrinsically linked.

You yourself seem quite bitter about people who are religious. I have no thoughts on your atheism (or whatever you want to call it)... if that's what you believe, knock yourself out. I don't know why you would feel justified in being so hyper-critical of people who do have faith.

I want to lead a happy and positive life, and I feel I am doing just that. I don't need the permission of someone who believes in nothing to validate me, nor do I accept their criticism.

Good Post Livia, yes I guess I do come across as having a bit of an axe to grind with religion. I appreciate the majority of people can live happily with their religion but for me it is a deeply personal issue and because at its heart it involves faith which overrides logic, organised religions can and do impose certain levels of control and regulation over people's lives.

That is the core of my argument, I'm not bitter about people having religion I myself was brought up Catholic and am now a mixture of Christian and humanist but as I've stated it is a personal issue for me and how I live my life, not being a pawn in someone else's crusade to convert everyone I meet from one belief system to the other..!!