[Nemo123]

Hey Guys! Have you heard of this guy, Bradley Manning? He's just 25, a mere kid, and he's a soldier in the US Army who has been in prison for the past three years because he leaked unsavoury information about his Army. He released a video called "collateral murder", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogFZlRiTHuw
which shows 12 or more innocent civilians murdered by the US Army.
He's going to go to jail for the rest of his life for doing this.
Are you outraged? If you are, say so.

[Nemo123]

I doubt young people understand the significance of this. Bradley Manning was obliged to disobey orders which contravened the Geneva Convention, he is sworn by this code of conduct when he enlisted. He was obligated to disobey orders which contravened the Geneva Convention, moreso he was obliged by his oath of allegiance to report contraventions of the Geneva Convention. His misfortune was to confide in someone who could not be trusted, someone who betrayed him, Adrian Lamo.

[Nemo123]

You know, I watched the "Mainstream Media" ignore this story for years now. Almost nothing about it. Yet, it is, or represents, the defining issue of our time. Freedom, freedom of speech. Yet it it it is being almost universally ignored by the corporate and cowed media. I remember the blanket coverage of OJ Simpson, or the English nanny accused of shaking a baby to death. These were parochial matters, interesting but with little or no implications for the world at large. Bradley Manning's treatment and fate has huge implications for the freedom of people here, people who think they have rights and are free. This is an attack on all of our liberties. Wake up to it!

[GypsyGoth]

Didn't he know the punishment for what he was doing beforehand?

[Nemo123]

I'm delighted for a response.
Firstly, he didn't intend to get caught, he had the misfortune to place his trust in someone who wasn't trustworthy, Adrian Lamo.
More than that he should have led his defence with the Nuremburg defence. Plenty of Nazis met the hangman for saying they were only obeying orders, but after three years of incarceration, 11 months in solidarity, and stripped naked, his resolve was broken.
But most significant of all, his oath of alllegience, when he signed up, explicit ordered him to disobey orders which contravened the Geneva Convention. Indeed he was obligated by that oath to report breaches of the Geneva Convention.

[GypsyGoth]

Doesn't loyalty to his country come before the geneva convention?

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Doesn't loyalty to his country come before the geneva convention?

That's a simple question to answer: NO

[Nemo123]

If Bradley Manning's orders contravene the Geneva Convention they are illegitimate.

[GypsyGoth]

I think he owed his loyalty to his country, that is what taking a job in the army means. You're signing up to defend your country, no matter what.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

If Bradley Manning's orders contravene the Geneva Convention they are illegitimate.

But I don't think countries work that way. They are not run by people who believe in always playing nice with others, simply because the ones against them, they are not bound by these laws like the geneva convention.

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

But I don't think countries work that way. They are not run by people who believe in always playing nice with others, simply because the ones against them, they are not bound by these laws like the geneva convention.

Countries who are signatories to the Geneva Convention are bound by the rules of the Geneva Convention, even if the other side aren't signed up to the Geneva Convention. It is in every soldier's oath to obey the rules off the Geneva Convention. If they don't obey those rules they are guilty of war crimes.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Countries who are signatories to the Geneva Convention are bound by the rules of the Geneva Convention, even if the other side aren't signed up to the Geneva Convention. It is in every soldier's oath to obey the rules off the Geneva Convention. If they don't obey those rules they are guilty of war crimes.

I think you're allowed to torture savages who are dead set on flying planes into your buildings.

Actually if there was a chance to uncover that plot through torturing someone, I think that torture is justified because of the amount of innocent people you would have saved.

So ok, someone may be guilty of a war crime, but in doing so they are preventing a greater crime to be carried out.

[Shaun]

He's essentially a hero. Sad miscarriage of justice.

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I think you're allowed to torture savages who are dead set on flying planes into your buildings.

Actually if there was a chance to uncover that plot through torturing someone, I think that torture is justified because of the amount of innocent people you would have saved.

So ok, someone may be guilty of a war crime, but in doing so they are preventing a greater crime to be carried out.

Gypsy, let's not get lost in 9/11 here.
What we saw was an American helicopter crew spooked by a reporter holding a camera and assuming it was a gun.
Let's not forget a heavily armoured Apache helicopter didn't receive one gunshot. No-one fired at it, and if an AR had fired at it it would have either missed or been deflected by the armour. NO, not one shot was fired at it, yet it shot dead 12 or 13 people. Have you seen the collateral murder video, it's on Youtube? People going about their business were shot up, without provocation. It's a war crime, and it's a further crime they were absolved by their superiors.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Shaun

He's essentially a hero. Sad miscarriage of justice.

But he's not a hero to the american army. I think they feel betrayed by him.

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Gypsy, let's not get lost in 9/11 here.
What we saw was an American helicopter crew spooked by a reporter holding a camera and assuming it was a gun.
Let's not forget a heavily armoured Apache helicopter didn't receive one gunshot. No-one fired at it, and if an AR had fired at it it would have either missed or been deflected by the armour. NO, not one shot was fired at it, yet it shot dead 12 or 13 people. Have you seen the collateral murder video, it's on Youtube? People going about their business were shot up, without provocation. It's a war crime, and it's a further crime they were absolved by their superiors.

But it wasn't as if these soldier decided to kill innocent people, the soldiers made a mistake, it happens a lot in war, people aren't perfect. So I don't see what Bradley Manning was planning on gaining by making this story known, not to mention all the other stuff he released.

This is where I find fault with him, it;s like that Snowden guy, when you join one of these organisations or armies, you own them your loyalty, you're not meant to try and damage that organisation. It's not for the solders to decide what info the public should know, it would be impossible for them to function if they cannot maintain secrecy.

Now I feel that telling secrets has because a type of meme is society, employees see themselves as doing some greater good for humanity by revealing to the world some hidden info from their organisation. But this is not their place to release it, regardless of how they claim their conscience made them do it, or they were doing it for the greater good.

The soldiers who do the things normal people won't, they are doing their job for the greater good, they are putting their lives on the line.

As a member of the public, I don't need to know that solders accidentally kill civilians, I've got a braincell, I know the likes of that happens, just like I don't need to know the details of how spy organisations get their info.

Was Bradley thinking of the women and men he serves with when he released the info?

[Nemo123]

But Gypsy, it's in their oath of allegiance to disobey orders which contravene the Geneva Convention. Soldiers are obligated to disobey such orders and are indeed obliged to report such contraventions. A Bradley armoured vehicle drove over an individual injured or already dead on the ground.. If still alive, this in itself constituted murder. Mistake, pardon my French, MY ARSE! These was all innocent people shot to kingdom come by a trigger happy soldier in a helicopter. Not one, I repeat, NOT ONE shot was fired a them.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

But Gypsy, it's in their oath of allegiance to disobey orders which contravene the Geneva Convention. Soldiers are obligated to disobey such orders and are indeed obliged to report such contraventions. A Bradley armoured vehicle drove over an individual injured or already dead on the ground.. If still alive, this in itself constituted murder. Mistake, pardon my French, MY ARSE! These was all innocent people shot to kingdom come by a trigger happy soldier in a helicopter. Not one, I repeat, NOT ONE shot was fired a them.

Yep but before the likes of this story became public knowledge, who was saying that the american soldiers are perfect? I think most people already knew that horrible things happen in war, regardless of what convention or treaty they go against, this stuff happens.

Has Bradley Manning made the world a safer place for people who work in the american army? Has he even made it safer for americans for that matter?

What has he achieved?

[Nemo123]

In 1972 13 marchers were shot dead in Derry by the British Parachute regiment. Subsequently 4 more died from their injuries. The whiewash aka The Wygery Report absolved all the troops of their crimes. It tooks almost 30 years for David Cameron to apologise unreservedly for the actions of the parachute regiment. I see plenty of parallels with this incident.

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Yep but before the likes of this story became public knowledge, who was saying that the american soldiers are perfect? I think most people already knew that horrible things happen in war, regardless of what convention or treaty they go against, this stuff happens.

Has Bradley Manning made the world a safer place for people who work in the american army? Has he even made it safer for americans for that matter?

What has he achieved?

What has he achieved? you ask.

Plenty. He has exposed mass murder in the name of the State. He has exposed the hypocrisy of a war that was supposed to bring democracy to Iraq, even tho we know that was only ever an excuse. He has exposed the American govt. for the tyranny it is. Ironic isn't it? Bring democracy to Iraq and instead bring tyranny to America.
We're a long long way from Watergate, when the Press could bring down governments for malfeasance. Now the Press are indistinguishable from the powers that be.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

In 1972 13 marchers were shot dead in Derry by the British Parachute regiment. Subsequently 4 more died from their injuries. The whiewash aka The Wygery Report absolved all the troops of their crimes. It tooks almost 30 years for David Cameron to apologise unreservedly for the actions of the parachute regiment. I see plenty of parallels with this incident.

I'm sure there are loads of parallel instances, but that doesn't make Bradley Manning's actions beneficial to his fellow soldiers. Actually if that situation resolved itself without a Bradley Manning, then maybe he need not have given all that classified info to wikileaks.

I see what Bradley Manning did as wrong, now I know you think he was obeying some greater law, but I think his duty comes before that.

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I'm sure there are loads of parallel instances, but that doesn't make Bradley Manning's actions beneficial to his fellow soldiers. Actually if that situation resolved itself without a Bradley Manning, then maybe he need not have given all that classified info to wikileaks.

I see what Bradley Manning did as wrong, now I know you think he was obeying some greater law, but I think his duty comes before that.

Do I have to look it up? I see I do. I just hope I can find it. That is what Bradley Manning swore to uphold. It includes, I guarantee you an oath not to contravene the Geneva Convention, an obligation to disobey it in fact is so ordered. Give me a moment, Google will find it.

[Nemo123]

Manning fulfilled his legal duty to report war crimes. He complied with his legal duty to obey lawful orders but also his legal duty to disobey unlawful orders.

Section 499 of the Army Field Manual states, "Every violation of the law of war is a war crime." The law of war is contained in the Geneva Conventions.

Article 85 of the First Protocol to the Geneva Conventions describes making the civilian population or individual civilians the object of attack as a grave breach. The firing on and killing of civilians shown in the "Collateral Murder" video violated this provision of Geneva.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions requires that the wounded be collected and cared for. Article 17 of the First Protocol states that the civilian population "shall be permitted, even on their own initiative, to collect and care for the wounded." That article also says, "No one shall be harmed . . . for such humanitarian acts." The firing on rescuers portrayed in the "Collateral Murder" video violates these provisions of Geneva.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

What has he achieved? you ask.

Plenty. He has exposed mass murder in the name of the State. He has exposed the hypocrisy of a war that was supposed to bring democracy to Iraq, even tho we know that was only ever an excuse. He has exposed the American govt. for the tyranny it is. Ironic isn't it? Bring democracy to Iraq and instead bring tyranny to America.
We're a long long way from Watergate, when the Press could bring down governments for malfeasance. Now the Press are indistinguishable from the powers that be.

I disagree, I think american is a wonderful place, and the government does what it has to in order to maintain that wonderful place for as many of it's citizens as possible.

And Bradley Manning hasn't opened anyone's eyes, people who hate america and it's government did so before Bradley Manning's released info, now of course it's handy to list the bad things they've done to justify their hatred of the country.

Bradley Manning took a job in the american military, he should have thought about his fellow soldiers, before giving out this info to the public as it's only used by the people who hate his country and his government.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Do I have to look it up? I see I do. I just hope I can find it. That is what Bradley Manning swore to uphold. It includes, I guarantee you an oath not to contravene the Geneva Convention, an obligation to disobey it in fact is so ordered. Give me a moment, Google will find it.

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Manning fulfilled his legal duty to report war crimes. He complied with his legal duty to obey lawful orders but also his legal duty to disobey unlawful orders.

Section 499 of the Army Field Manual states, "Every violation of the law of war is a war crime." The law of war is contained in the Geneva Conventions.

Article 85 of the First Protocol to the Geneva Conventions describes making the civilian population or individual civilians the object of attack as a grave breach. The firing on and killing of civilians shown in the "Collateral Murder" video violated this provision of Geneva.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions requires that the wounded be collected and cared for. Article 17 of the First Protocol states that the civilian population "shall be permitted, even on their own initiative, to collect and care for the wounded." That article also says, "No one shall be harmed . . . for such humanitarian acts." The firing on rescuers portrayed in the "Collateral Murder" video violates these provisions of Geneva.

I'm fine with that, I accept that point, but I don't see what he's achieving by it. Like you think it's his duty to report this incident because it's collateral murder, I don't see it as his place to do so. And I'm puzzled by who he was trying to help by releasing info on such things as this incident

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I disagree, I think american is a wonderful place, and the government does what it has to in order to maintain that wonderful place for as many of it's citizens as possible.

And Bradley Manning hasn't opened anyone's eyes, people who hate america and it's government did so before Bradley Manning's released info, now of course it's handy to list the bad things they've done to justify their hatred of the country.

Bradley Manning took a job in the american military, he should have thought about his fellow soldiers, before giving out this info to the public as it's only used by the people who hate his country and his government.

You forget, Bradley Manning was a soldier, serving his country. The judge Denise Lind has already adjudicated that what he released didn't aid any enemy, imaginary or real. She has had to invoke some archaic catch-all law dating from 1917 about espionage to charge him. A law which is completely incongruous with the case against him.

If you think people hate America, you're right, they do. America is the ROman Empire of today. It maintains its economic dominancy of the world by military means, just like the old Roman Empire. It is proactively imperialistic. But it will be tolerated and supported for the mos part so long as it is benign. It is watched closely and Manning fulfilled his legal duty to report war crimes. He complied with his legal duty to obey lawful orders but also his legal duty to disobey unlawful orders.

Section 499 of the Army Field Manual states, "Every violation of the law of war is a war crime." The law of war is contained in the Geneva Conventions.

Article 85 of the First Protocol to the Geneva Conventions describes making the civilian population or individual civilians the object of attack as a grave breach. The firing on and killing of civilians shown in the "Collateral Murder" video violated this provision of Geneva.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions requires that the wounded be collected and cared for. Article 17 of the First Protocol states that the civilian population "shall be permitted, even on their own initiative, to collect and care for the wounded." That article also says, "No one shall be harmed . . . for such humanitarian acts." The firing on rescuers portrayed in the "Collateral Murder" video violates these provisions of Geneva.