[alex_front2]

Seeing as ron loves to generalize....

Ron strikes me as one of those people who doesn't regard anyone non-white as British.

He probably longs to harp back to an era when Uk had hardly anyone who wasn't white.

Ron probably is racist in private when he feels non of those pesky brown folk are around and regards being pulled up for it as PC gone mad.

Ron probably refers to the British doctor who treated him as " that Pakistani fellow"

[aj2463]

Why would the silly old man do CBB? He should have done DOI instead, less time for him to say sh*t

[BeloTheBelt]

To be fair to the thread originator, i didnt know most of those other Ron quotes.

I defended him(ron) before, but cant really anymore.

I find it Ironic that when entering the house he told Emma that the one thing he cant stand is "stupidness".

[cfromhx02]

Al.l the OP has done has proved that the n****r comment wasn't a one off.That Ron is a proven racist.So there was a point to the thread. And nothing wrong with it either.Racism should be exposed and kept down at every turn.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by BeloTheBelt

To be fair to the thread originator, i didnt know most of those other Ron quotes.

I defended him(ron) before, but cant really anymore.

I find it Ironic that when entering the house he told Emma that the one thing he cant stand is "stupidness".

..to be fair to Ron, you also have to take the full context of those remarks as well and that these aren't comments that are new, they were made 10 years ago, they were racist comments and he's paid a very high price for making them, that's something that everyone's aware of, I think he's a really silly man because he's not stupid in what's right and wrong and he's completely savvy to media etc, yet he continues to say these things that will cause offence and bring about nothing but negativity for himself, maybe he doesn't care..?..but I don't think he's racist...I'll be honest, for a long time I did think that and when he went into the BB house, my first instinct was to dismiss him as a racist and not really give him a chance..but I was interested in other people's opinions and learning more about him because a lot of people seemed to still hold him in high regard and I was curious as to why as I don't believe those people are racists either or condoned what he's said in any way, so I asked for people's thoughts in a thread and was really enlightened by what I've learned about him as a person and some of the things he's done/achieved etc...

..anyway, to an extent I do think it's just his environment/mindset etc at how he expresses things and is oblivious to the offence in them but I also think that sort of ignorance/stubbornness shouldn't be excused either because it can be very harmful in creating and encouraging stereotypes...I'm sure for most of us if only our negatives were highlighted and none of our positives we could all look like really bad people and with Ron, there are definitely negatives but from what I've come to understand there are also many positives which don't just balance out his character but I can see that he's done many fine and positive things in encouraging and promoting black players in the sport he's very passionate about, but that's just my opinion, I think the best validation comes from the people who know him well and have worked with him...

..I still can't understand how some people can say, oh it doesn't matter what he's said, he's still a great guy and he's not doing anything wrong, it's just his age etc....of course it matters what he says, it shouldn't be excused, he doesn't even try to excuse it himself, he knows he's done wrong and been stupid..he'll probably keep on doing it anyway because he doesn't seem to think before he speaks and when he does say something it'll be discussed and rightly so, discussing something isn't over-reacting to it...

..anyway, the Paul McGrath thing, I think it's very important to not 'judge' on a selected quote from what he said but look at his complete opinion about Ron, the good and the bad....and it's under the heading of 'Ron's no racist'...


Aston Villa legend Paul McGrath has revealed that Ron Atkinson called black players “coons” during training sessions.

The retired soccer star claimed Big Ron used the racist term while manager of the Premier-ship club in the 1990s.

Yet McGrath insisted that his former boss, who resigned from his ITV job last week for branding Chelsea player Marcel Desailly a “*******ing lazy big n****r” live on air, was an INSPIRATION to black players.

When we put the claims to Atkinson yesterday, he did not deny using the derogatory term ‘coon’, but said: “You should have heard what the players called me!”

Big Ron, from Barnt Green in Worcester-shire, resigned from his Ł200,000 job as a sports pundit after his outburst on Tuesday night following Chelsea’s Champions League defeat against Monaco

He thought his comments about Desailly to fellow commentator Clive Tyldesley were offair - but they were being broadcast to audiences in the Middle East.


Some fans who heard the rant claim that he also called Blues boss Claudio Ranieri a “wop” and midfielder Juan Sebastian Veron “a lazy *******”.


After a storm erupted Atkinson, 65, apologised immediately and quit his TV post. He has since left his job as an expert analyst for The Guardian.


He has also been shown the red card by West Bromwich Building Society, who had planned touse himtopromotea newmortgageplanthis week.


Atkinson gave McGrath his big break in football when he signed him for Manchester United in 1982.


He was also the player’s manager at Aston Villa, where the defender arrived in 1989 after having been shown the Old Trafford door by Alex Ferguson for heavy drinking.


McGrath, 44, who now lives in Ireland, said he was shocked at the Atkinson outburst against Desailly.






“I heard what Ron said about Desailly and I thought it was a daft thing to say,” he said. “It was out of order. I was shocked because I had not heard Ron use that word before.”


But then he added: “I heard him call some black players a coon during training. It didn’t happen very often, it was occasional. But I’m not going to defend him to the hilt.


“I think Ron is probably one of the old school where language like this was probably more accepted.”


Although McGrath condemned Big Ron for using insulting language,he said that he did not believe he was a racist.


“You only have to look at his record over the years,” he explained. “He was one of the few managers who helped black players in their careers and he treated everyone well

He was a great inspiration for me personally. He brought me to Manchester United and looked after me. He was at Villa as well. He treated me brilliantly.


“He would have been the first person to have befriended black people.”


But McGrath added that he was subjected to other racism during his career.


“Over the years I did experience racism,” he said. “There was a lot more of it about then.


“Ron is one of the most decent managers that I had, but I can’t condone what he said.” McGrath is no stranger to controversy himself. His drinking exploits have seen him hit the headlines for the wrong reasons.


Friends have spoken about their fears that booze binges could kill the soccer legend and have urged him to give up the bottle.


McGrath was in rehab for six weeks last November following an incident outside his ex-wife’s house in Manchester.


But he told the Sunday Mercury that he is now happy working as director of football for Irish team Waterford United.


“It’s great,” he said. “It’s wonderful working with the team and it’s been going fairly well


..I think for me this kind of sums it up in that you can not condone/excuse etc what someone says because it's just wrong but it still doesn't make them a bad person or not admirable as a whole or in Ron's case, it doesn't make him a racist, just infuriatingly stupid sometimes....I'm sure some people will go on with very blinkered vision just looking at the few stupid things he's said and some others will make excuses and say he doesn't do anything wrong, which of course he does but I still think he's one of the good guys regardless...

[joeysteele]

Fantastic post Ammi.

[cfromhx02]

Ron's racist remarks because there are so many cannot be excused way by the "in context" argument and saying he made them because he was paid to make them makes it even worse if he made the comments just to get financial reward, when of course he wasn't paid to make them, there is no excuse for racism which cannot be argued away in Ron's case because of how often he's done it

[Toy Soldier]

I find the debate a bit bewildering. Men with attitudes like Ron's are ten a penny for his generation - like I said in another post... Spend half an hour in a bowls club or a bookies with a group of men aged 65+ and you'll see what I mean.

He isnt aggressively racist, theres no real malice in it, and he probably doesnt discriminate based on race.

He is however undeniably a casual racist - he makes NEGATIVE racial stereotypes ("up a tree", "hiding a bomb") without even thinking.

It doesnt make him a bad person, it makes him pretty normal for his age group, especially considering the sporting world he lived in. Its just part of his mindset, completely ingrained.

That DOES NOT make it right, good or acceptable though. It is the foundation of an underlying latent "layer" of racism upon which more serious racism is built, and is a way of thinking that we should be making sure is not passed on to younger generations. Ron shouldn't be condemned for his actions but, also, he shouldnt be given an impressionable audience (young male football fans) either. He is a relic, and if he was sensible, would remove himself from the public eye in retirement.

That's not "being too PC", what nonsense. That's a phrase all too often used to attempt to justify casual racism.

[cfromhx02]

I t really does make me wonder if some who defend the kinds of comments made by Ron deserved our soldiers to die in their millions to defeat Hitler or deserved anti-racists since who taken lead piping round their skulls umpteen times to keep racism in it's place

[Kizzy]

Yes you can find anyone with this type of viewpoint like TS says, its an entrenched middle English attitude reinforced by the emergence of UKIP as a voice for these individuals in the UK.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I find the debate a bit bewildering. Men with attitudes like Ron's are ten a penny for his generation - like I said in another post... Spend half an hour in a bowls club or a bookies with a group of men aged 65+ and you'll see what I mean.

He isnt aggressively racist, theres no real malice in it, and he probably doesnt discriminate based on race.

He is however undeniably a casual racist - he makes NEGATIVE racial stereotypes ("up a tree", "hiding a bomb") without even thinking.

It doesnt make him a bad person, it makes him pretty normal for his age group, especially considering the sporting world he lived in. Its just part of his mindset, completely ingrained.

That DOES NOT make it right, good or acceptable though. It is the foundation of an underlying latent "layer" of racism upon which more serious racism is built, and is a way of thinking that we should be making sure is not passed on to younger generations. Ron shouldn't be condemned for his actions but, also, he shouldnt be given an impressionable audience (young male football fans) either. He is a relic, and if he was sensible, would remove himself from the public eye in retirement.

That's not "being too PC", what nonsense. That's a phrase all too often used to attempt to justify casual racism.

..I agree with this but I think why it's 'bewildering' or still being debated etc, for me anyway is because I am aware of 'Ron's generation' and lots of people in that generation don't and have never said things similar to Ron, so it's the whole generalisation thing in saying it's just a generation thing because that does indeed just goes to excuse it and not address it as casual racism as you say...

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..to be fair to Ron, you also have to take the full context of those remarks as well and that these aren't comments that are new, they were made 10 years ago, they were racist comments and he's paid a very high price for making them, that's something that everyone's aware of, I think he's a really silly man because he's not stupid in what's right and wrong and he's completely savvy to media etc, yet he continues to say these things that will cause offence and bring about nothing but negativity for himself, maybe he doesn't care..?..but I don't think he's racist...I'll be honest, for a long time I did think that and when he went into the BB house, my first instinct was to dismiss him as a racist and not really give him a chance..but I was interested in other people's opinions and learning more about him because a lot of people seemed to still hold him in high regard and I was curious as to why as I don't believe those people are racists either or condoned what he's said in any way, so I asked for people's thoughts in a thread and was really enlightened by what I've learned about him as a person and some of the things he's done/achieved etc...

..anyway, to an extent I do think it's just his environment/mindset etc at how he expresses things and is oblivious to the offence in them but I also think that sort of ignorance/stubbornness shouldn't be excused either because it can be very harmful in creating and encouraging stereotypes...I'm sure for most of us if only our negatives were highlighted and none of our positives we could all look like really bad people and with Ron, there are definitely negatives but from what I've come to understand there are also many positives which don't just balance out his character but I can see that he's done many fine and positive things in encouraging and promoting black players in the sport he's very passionate about, but that's just my opinion, I think the best validation comes from the people who know him well and have worked with him...

..I still can't understand how some people can say, oh it doesn't matter what he's said, he's still a great guy and he's not doing anything wrong, it's just his age etc....of course it matters what he says, it shouldn't be excused, he doesn't even try to excuse it himself, he knows he's done wrong and been stupid..he'll probably keep on doing it anyway because he doesn't seem to think before he speaks and when he does say something it'll be discussed and rightly so, discussing something isn't over-reacting to it...

..anyway, the Paul McGrath thing, I think it's very important to not 'judge' on a selected quote from what he said but look at his complete opinion about Ron, the good and the bad....and it's under the heading of 'Ron's no racist'...


Aston Villa legend Paul McGrath has revealed that Ron Atkinson called black players “coons” during training sessions.

The retired soccer star claimed Big Ron used the racist term while manager of the Premier-ship club in the 1990s.

Yet McGrath insisted that his former boss, who resigned from his ITV job last week for branding Chelsea player Marcel Desailly a “*******ing lazy big n****r” live on air, was an INSPIRATION to black players.

When we put the claims to Atkinson yesterday, he did not deny using the derogatory term ‘coon’, but said: “You should have heard what the players called me!”

Big Ron, from Barnt Green in Worcester-shire, resigned from his Ł200,000 job as a sports pundit after his outburst on Tuesday night following Chelsea’s Champions League defeat against Monaco

He thought his comments about Desailly to fellow commentator Clive Tyldesley were offair - but they were being broadcast to audiences in the Middle East.


Some fans who heard the rant claim that he also called Blues boss Claudio Ranieri a “wop” and midfielder Juan Sebastian Veron “a lazy *******”.


After a storm erupted Atkinson, 65, apologised immediately and quit his TV post. He has since left his job as an expert analyst for The Guardian.


He has also been shown the red card by West Bromwich Building Society, who had planned touse himtopromotea newmortgageplanthis week.


Atkinson gave McGrath his big break in football when he signed him for Manchester United in 1982.


He was also the player’s manager at Aston Villa, where the defender arrived in 1989 after having been shown the Old Trafford door by Alex Ferguson for heavy drinking.


McGrath, 44, who now lives in Ireland, said he was shocked at the Atkinson outburst against Desailly.






“I heard what Ron said about Desailly and I thought it was a daft thing to say,” he said. “It was out of order. I was shocked because I had not heard Ron use that word before.”


But then he added: “I heard him call some black players a coon during training. It didn’t happen very often, it was occasional. But I’m not going to defend him to the hilt.


“I think Ron is probably one of the old school where language like this was probably more accepted.”


Although McGrath condemned Big Ron for using insulting language,he said that he did not believe he was a racist.


“You only have to look at his record over the years,” he explained. “He was one of the few managers who helped black players in their careers and he treated everyone well

He was a great inspiration for me personally. He brought me to Manchester United and looked after me. He was at Villa as well. He treated me brilliantly.


“He would have been the first person to have befriended black people.”


But McGrath added that he was subjected to other racism during his career.


“Over the years I did experience racism,” he said. “There was a lot more of it about then.


“Ron is one of the most decent managers that I had, but I can’t condone what he said.” McGrath is no stranger to controversy himself. His drinking exploits have seen him hit the headlines for the wrong reasons.


Friends have spoken about their fears that booze binges could kill the soccer legend and have urged him to give up the bottle.


McGrath was in rehab for six weeks last November following an incident outside his ex-wife’s house in Manchester.


But he told the Sunday Mercury that he is now happy working as director of football for Irish team Waterford United.


“It’s great,” he said. “It’s wonderful working with the team and it’s been going fairly well


..I think for me this kind of sums it up in that you can not condone/excuse etc what someone says because it's just wrong but it still doesn't make them a bad person or not admirable as a whole or in Ron's case, it doesn't make him a racist, just infuriatingly stupid sometimes....I'm sure some people will go on with very blinkered vision just looking at the few stupid things he's said and some others will make excuses and say he doesn't do anything wrong, which of course he does but I still think he's one of the good guys regardless...

Excellent post Ammi.

so it was nearly 10 years ago this happened going by his age.

Thankfully we have moved on somewhat these days.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Excellent post Ammi.

so it was nearly 10 years ago this happened going by his age.

Thankfully we have moved on somewhat these days.

Have we, what about his comment last night then?..

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by alex_front2

Seeing as ron loves to generalize....

Ron strikes me as one of those people who doesn't regard anyone non-white as British.

He probably longs to harp back to an era when Uk had hardly anyone who wasn't white.

Ron probably is racist in private when he feels non of those pesky brown folk are around and regards being pulled up for it as PC gone mad.

Ron probably refers to the British doctor who treated him as " that Pakistani fellow"

Im sorry to draw attention to the fact ,EVERYONE is allowed their own thoughts on everything,whos to tell them what they think is right or wrong ?

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Have we, what about his comment last night then?..

WE have, in general.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by cfromhx02

I t really does make me wonder if some who defend the kinds of comments made by Ron deserved our soldiers to die in their millions to defeat Hitler or deserved anti-racists since who taken lead piping round their skulls umpteen times to keep racism in it's place

The same soldiers who get jeered on home parades after fighting and dying for the same religious group ? also tell it to Lee Rigbys son ,by these so called lovers of peace ,As an Aunty of a serving soldier I have every right to defend the Army its a pity our government dont think its as important as not rocking boats

[Kizzy]

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the 'generational' aspect has a bearing... Are we not in charge and conscious of what comes out of our mouths over the age of 60?
There was a similar comment made in relation to the women caught smuggling drugs, are we to believe there is only a window of around 40yrs where we can legitimately be held accountable for the things we do and say?...

[DanaC]

Excellent posts Ammi and Toy Soldier. I think I pretty much agree with what both of you say.

I think it is perfectly possible for someone to be a casual racist in their thinking on the one hand whilst being wholly against (and even actively working against) active racism on the other.

This is what makes Ron such an interesting character I think. I've met people like him before. I remember many moons ago, getting involved in some election campaigning. My first time doing so actually. I was doorknocking and leaflet dropping with some old skool, Labour and union men. We'd been discussing the election as we went and one of the subjects covered was an election campaign from their youth, in the '60s, when a conservative politician had run with the slogan: If you want a n***er for a neighbour, vote Liberal or Labour'.

Now being a slip of a girl myself, I'd never heard of this. They told me all sorts of stories about the fight against racism in politics, including some nasty physical altercations with the NF in London in the 70s.

About half an hour after they'd finished regaling me with their tales of the anti-fascist fight, one of them told a p*ki joke...

As time went on I got to know that these men held a lot of casually racist views. But they had probably done more in their lives to combat active racism than I ever have since (and I have been involved at various times in the anti-racist movement). On the other hand they were part and parcel of a culture (the union and the old Labour party))that was inadvertently, unthinkingly excluding and making feel unwelcome, non-white activists. Adding to the general undercurrent of racism in the country, even as they were actively combating the waves of it that washed over us.

[eta] They were also extraordinarily sexist. Seemed to see women primarily as competition in the work force. A threat to the male working wage and male jobs.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by brucie

Ron Atkinson's history of racism:

He said on air that Cameroon defender Massing did not have a brain. Viewers abroad later heard him say whether his criticism of Massing would have caused trouble:

“if his mother had been listening in Cameroon up a tree”

"...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a ****ing lazy ******".

"I can't understand why there is such a population problem in China as they have the best contraception going: Chinese women are the ugliest in the world."

Aston Villa legend Paul McGrath has revealed that Ron Atkinson called black players “coons” during training sessions.

But then he added: “I heard him call some black players a coon during training. It didn’t happen very often, it was occasional. But I’m not going to defend him to the hilt.

and we all heard what he had to say tonight about Muslims...

Im sorry but I fin that hilarious lol.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Im sorry to draw attention to the fact ,EVERYONE is allowed their own thoughts on everything,whos to tell them what they think is right or wrong ?

Exactly!This reminds me of another idiotic post in a different thread by another fm.Nobody has the right to tell anybody how to think.

[Kizzy]

Social norms are fluid one thing they are always doing is changing it's natural, enforcing that change is unnatural.
I agree with the hate laws they are an important tool as are equal ops for obvious reasons, we do however have to guard against going too far, we have to remember that not too long ago what we consider grossly offensive insults some considered light entertainment.
Change happens but it doesn't happen overnight.

[MachoPoodle]

It seems these days many people are most concerned about what they (or someone else) might say/do being labeled racist than whether or not it actually is. We can all say inappropriate stuff, but I'm more interested in having my eyes opened about things I might not be aware of, or working on my prejudice that I am aware of, than what someone else might say or think about me.

I just don't get the whining about how awful it is to be called out on saying offensive stuff, with the argument that it's because others are too PC or easily offended. Imo, even if they were right (which I definitely don't think they are most of the time) this is very much a pot-kettle thing to do.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Social norms are fluid one thing they are always doing is changing it's natural, enforcing that change is unnatural.
I agree with the hate laws they are an important tool as are equal ops for obvious reasons, we do however have to guard against going too far, we have to remember that not too long ago what we consider grossly offensive insults some considered light entertainment.
Change happens but it doesn't happen overnight.

Things change over the years though,We could see a U-turn,I think we are still trying to find our feet with multiculturelism,Hence all this over sensitivity to everything that could possibly be found offensive to somebody somewhere.I think that once we are comfortable in our own skin with all the changes we are going through socially,We will all be much more laid back and freer to discuss any issues that present themselves and be able to once again joke about ourselves and each other without being demonised and branded racist,homophobic,xenophobic.....etc

[Kizzy]

I doubt things will go backwards but there does seem to be two camps, those who feel it is their divine right to say whatever whenever about whoever and their supporters. And the moral army who march around looking for new ways to be outraged and offended about everything on the behalf of others, looking to recruit supporters to their latest cause.
Multiculturalism is hard, there's no two ways about it... and it will get worse before it gets better.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Exactly!This reminds me of another idiotic post in a different thread by another fm.Nobody has the right to tell anybody how to think.

Isnt it pathetic and arrogant ?I have MY beliefs and thoughts and dont give a chuff who likes/dislikes them