[Nemo123]

Barb Jacobsen is a campaigner for a universal income for all. I think it's about £12,000 per annum. It's an entitlement for all to a subsistence income, without condition. It sort of ensures no-one starves to death, and there are no conditions attached to it.

What do yo think?

http://basicincome.org.uk/news/2013/...t-demo-berlin/

[Z]

One of those ideas that is great in theory but in practice wouldn't be so great, I think. I find it shocking that there is no minimum wage in Germany, for example, and people are paid a pittance particularly in Eastern Germany

[Nemo123]

If you haven't enough money to feed yourself, put a roof over your head, and keep warm, wouldn't it make sense to commit a crime and get a jail sentence? And how much does it cost to keep one person in prison? Many times 12K.

[Apple202]

but wouldnt that just make the cost of living increase anyway

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by Apple202

but wouldnt that just make the cost of living increase anyway

It would require a slight redistribution of income. Slight. But you know, we have technology which has made human beings unnecessary. Combine harvesters, for example, which have rendered human toil redundant. And lots more examples. The world doesn't need us, like it use to, because it can do the work which we use to do, without us.

[Livia]

We have combine harvesters... the supermarkets buy the majority of the produce... they negotiate the price down... the farmer now couldn't live without his combine because he couldn't afford to pay someone because the supermarket is paying him bugger-all.

£12,000 a year for doing nothing. I'm sure that would be enough for some people to retire from work forever and live off the back of the less feckless.

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by Livia

We have combine harvesters... the supermarkets buy the majority of the produce... they negotiate the price down... the farmer now couldn't live without his combine because he couldn't afford to pay someone because the supermarket is paying him bugger-all.

£12,000 a year for doing nothing. I'm sure that would be enough for some people to retire from work forever and live off the back of the less feckless.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Industrialiation has lead to cheaper food. But, putting price aside and the market, fundamentally, we have he technology and the capacity to feed and cloth us all. To keep warm and put a roof over our heads. It' the technology dividend. It's the present from all of our ancestors who have made this possible. We all stand on the shoulder of giants.

[Livia]

You talk about technology and development like it's some kind of benevolent legacy. What it actually is, is a way to make some people very rich. Humans aren't really interested in sharing their wealth or we'd have done it by now. And most people would object to sharing their bit. I don't think standing on the shoulders of giants means we don't have to work for a living any more. Who's going to develop the technology? You know how fast it moves... or are we going to allow the technology to be smart enough to reproduce and improve itself? Which is just scary. There are many other jobs too that require a human being whom technology can't replace. Are we going to force those people to work while the rest of humanity sit on their tuchas?

I think the best we can hope from technology for the future is that it could give people more leisure time... but that doesn't seem to have happened so far. Humans need to work, they need to build and develop.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

£12,000 a year for doing nothing. I'm sure that would be enough for some people to retire from work forever and live off the back of the less feckless.

Really? £12,000 is only £1000 a month.

A 1-bed flat on average costs around £300 - £350 a month (more in some areas, but let's split the difference and call it £325)

Household bills, realistically, come in at around £110 a month

Council Tax + Water (even low band) £100 a month


That's the absolute basics out of the way, at £535...

A food budget to eat decent, real food - £200 a month...

So that leaves £60 a week for absolutely everything else (including transport, clothing, etc.) and to live on. So yeah it's a subsistence but enough to "retire on" and live any sort of life? I don't think so. You could "live", in the sense of not dying, but you wouldn't be able to actually... do much else.


I don't think it's an outlandish amount for a minimum for a single person. Although it should obviously not be "no questions asked" as, for example, 3 or 4 people could band together with their £12,000 each in one house (splitting rent and more importantly, bills) and live better than most people. A £48k income in a 4-adult house would be pretty cushy. But as a base-line expectation I don't think it's excessive.

[Nemo123]

You must be able to sustain yourself. It is a crime to die of poverty in this country.

[swinearefine]

I definitely agree that everyone has the right to life, which means a sustainable income for food and housing, but I'm afraid I don't know enough about economics right now to know whether this is a reasonable solution or not.

[Nemo123]

In response to Livia, "Are we going to force those people to work while the rest of humanity sit on their tuchas? ", there would be an incentive for working. You'd get your 12K, and on top you'd get paid for your labour.

[Nedusa]

I'm afraid the Capitalist model that most western societies are based on do not allow money to be given freely to everybody, money usually has to be earned through labour and although some countries like the UK do have a welfare system to provide for the minority of people who are old, ill or unable to work, the majority still have to put in a days work for a days pay.

I agree the distribution of wealth in global terms is obscene but giving everyone on the planet the equivalent of £12,000 PA would would be unsustainable and would lead to the breakdown of most societies....!!!