Notices

Serious Debates & News Debate and discussion about political, moral, philosophical, celebrity and news topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23-01-2014, 06:47 PM #1
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default The Placebo Effect

So seeing as I'm in danger of taking another thread totally OT, and also that we have been discussing faith based issues recently, I would like us to consider the Placebo Effect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catweazel
No its the placebo effect that works mildly with endorphins in the brain. A placebo will not help if you have lost a limb, have aggressive cancer or toothache. It is good for hypochondriacs however.


Me: Well there's no pill / therapy that will cure either limb loss or aggressive cancer, so those examples are irrelevant. You need to have faith it will work, how could anyone believe any pill could cure their limb loss? There obviously has to be the potential for a cure. Nobody with an aggressive cancer would have very much faith that a drug could cure them, although maybe one could offer some relief.

It's good for more than hypochondriacs, I can dig out some very good articles if you like? You obviously know how it works, both the patients on the real drug and the patients on the false drug, both having faith the drug will cure them, have similar success rates in their cure.

The Chinese firmly believe that mind and body are inextricably linked in the causes and relief of disease; I would tend to agree.

I've also seen people drunk on non-alcoholic beer, believing it's the real McCoy. THAT's funny.

What do you think?
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

Last edited by Jezzy; 23-01-2014 at 06:47 PM.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 06:51 PM #2
Kate!'s Avatar
Kate! Kate! is offline
IntoxiKated
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wigan baby yeah!
Posts: 29,967

Favourites (more):
BB2023: Henry
Strictly 2020: Maisie Smith


Kate! Kate! is offline
IntoxiKated
Kate!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wigan baby yeah!
Posts: 29,967

Favourites (more):
BB2023: Henry
Strictly 2020: Maisie Smith


Default

I do agree Jezzy, the mind is a powerful and complex thing, and if you believe something strongly enough it's possible an effect will come into being.

The drinking example is a very good one, I've known that happen.
__________________



Taking part in Strictly Jake's Tibb does Strictly Game.
Kate! is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 06:58 PM #3
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


Default

|Hypnotism is a good example of how powerful the brain is and endorphins are also powerful. Look at the rush you can get after intense exercise.

Religious faith is more just believing crap with no evidence (and not thinking or takling the time to learn basic astronomy or science for example). People use this "faith" as some kind of badge of honour when it is no such thing - its a hangover from a time when religious piety gave you power in the community.

Our imagination is very powerful, look at hypnotism.

Mind you, go smash in some religionists car and then tell them to have faith that god will mend it and see how you go...
LeatherTrumpet is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:07 PM #4
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catweazel View Post
|Hypnotism is a good example of how powerful the brain is and endorphins are also powerful. Look at the rush you can get after intense exercise.

Endorphins are a physical effect.

Our imagination is very powerful, look at hypnotism.

Absolutely. You know you are being hypnotised, you do not know you are taking a placebo. Different things entirely.

Mind you, go smash in some religionists car and then tell them to have faith that god will mend it and see how you go...
I said before, it doesn't work if it's something that can't possibly happen.
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:11 PM #5
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzy View Post
I said before, it doesn't work if it's something that can't possibly happen.
So its really just a mild form of delusion?

Like voting for Linda
LeatherTrumpet is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:13 PM #6
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

No, it's utter belief that you are taking a cure and the fact that that "cure" works.

It's the Placebo Effect we are talking about here, not generic faith, which is why I didn't quote the part of your post about Religious faith. That's *your* thread. This is empirical (measurable) faith, which should be an oxymoron but actually isn't.
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

Last edited by Jezzy; 23-01-2014 at 07:23 PM.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:22 PM #7
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzy View Post
No, it's utter belief that you are taking a cure and the fact that that "cure" works.

It's the Placebo Effect we are talking about here, not generic faith, which is why I didn't quote the part of your post about Religious faith. That's *your* thread. This is empirical faith, which should be an oxymoron but actually isn't.
The belief is based on scientific testing and knowledge. You believe that the person you are getting it from has been trained and that the drugs have been tested and developed over many years.


But what point do you wish to make about it?
LeatherTrumpet is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:24 PM #8
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catweazel View Post
The belief is based on scientific testing and knowledge. You believe that the person you are getting it from has been trained and that the drugs have been tested and developed over many years.


But what point do you wish to make about it?
That it's a form of faith that works.
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:48 PM #9
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


LeatherTrumpet LeatherTrumpet is offline
You know my methods
LeatherTrumpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92,788


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzy View Post
That it's a form of faith that works.
Yes but its kind of like going over a long bridge and believing that it will not collapse. You are basing your faith in logic and evidence and not on a bog standard 2000 year old myth that was as common as camel dung at the time.

Religious faith, as i stated, used to be a badge of honour because it got you power and standing in your community. Now we see it more as a badge of ignorance.

I am not arguing that the word faith is bogus, its a catch all word in some respects.
LeatherTrumpet is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 07:54 PM #10
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catweazel View Post
Yes but its kind of like going over a long bridge and believing that it will not collapse.

I am not arguing that the word faith is bogus, its a catch all word in some respects.
Yea, it is, which is why I am trying to divide it into scientific faith and religious faith. This thread's for scientific faith.
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 08:40 PM #11
Ammi's Avatar
Ammi Ammi is offline
Quand il pleut, il pleut
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 63,165


Ammi Ammi is offline
Quand il pleut, il pleut
Ammi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 63,165


Default

..I think the Placebo/Nocebo effcts are fascinating...that we can 'think' our physical symptoms to be improved or be perfectly physically healthy and 'think' ourselves to have symptoms of physical illness etc... I think that you just have to look at people like the Shaolin monks to know that the mind is a very powerful thing....how great would it be to have complete control over it...
Ammi is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 09:01 PM #12
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammi View Post
..I think the Placebo/Nocebo effcts are fascinating...that we can 'think' our physical symptoms to be improved or be perfectly physically healthy and 'think' ourselves to have symptoms of physical illness etc... I think that you just have to look at people like the Shaolin monks to know that the mind is a very powerful thing....how great would it be to have complete control over it...
This in complete opposition to Catweazle's troll post (in another thread) about how the Chinese eat dogs therefore you shouldn't trust them.

Thank you Ammi and the serious posters, I think the Placebo effect is very relevant. We have a lot to learn from The Shao'lin.
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

Last edited by Jezzy; 23-01-2014 at 09:03 PM.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 11:07 PM #13
Nedusa's Avatar
Nedusa Nedusa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,347

Favourites (more):
CBB 10: Julian Clary
BB13: Luke A
Nedusa Nedusa is offline
Senior Member
Nedusa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,347

Favourites (more):
CBB 10: Julian Clary
BB13: Luke A
Default

Perhaps the placebo effect in some instances can be examined by the initial pain or ailment not actually existing but the person for a variety of reason has developed the pain as a form of psychosis a bit like munchausen's syndrome where the illness or pain is invented.

Now the mind is a powerful thing and although technically there is no reason for this pain the mind can create actual real pain if believed.

So in these circumstances both a real pill and a placebo will remove this pain as the patient believes he or she is being cured and so the mind will erase this pain in these circumstances.

In this example the belief a pill ( placebo or not) is the reason the pain disappears as the patient has invented the pain as part of a more serious psychosis.
__________________
Nedusa is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 11:18 PM #14
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedusa View Post
Perhaps the placebo effect in some instances can be examined by the initial pain or ailment not actually existing but the person for a variety of reason has developed the pain as a form of psychosis a bit like munchausen's syndrome where the illness or pain is invented.

There have been control experiments contradicting this. It's not flaky research carried out within mental / psychotic sectors any more than they would occur in normalised society. 100 patients get the cure, 50 real medicine, 50 not. All told it's the same.

Now the mind is a powerful thing and although technically there is no reason for this pain the mind can create actual real pain if believed.

It can, but that's more bordering upon suggestion under hypnosis. It's not a blind belief.

So in these circumstances both a real pill and a placebo will remove this pain as the patient believes he or she is being cured and so the mind will erase this pain in these circumstances.

In this example the belief a pill ( placebo or not) is the reason the pain disappears as the patient has invented the pain as part of a more serious psychosis.
No, the patient already believes their pain is real. Haha, sorry, I as was about to digress yet again, about the nature of perceived reality :P
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-01-2014, 11:19 PM #15
Jezzy's Avatar
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Jezzy Jezzy is offline
Senior Member
Jezzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 1,493

Favourites (more):
CBB 13: Dappy
BBUSA15: McCrae
Default

But I should probably go to bed, nnight all

Happy bickering xx
__________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Jezzy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark/share this topic

Tags
effect, placebo

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
 

About Us ThisisBigBrother.com

"Big Brother and UK Television Forum. Est. 2001"

 

© 2023
no new posts